5 commitments in 1 weekend? What do Gopherholers think of that?!

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PMWinSTP said:
Really. If that's your perception of obsession, then most out here are obsessed with it. How many pages are the recruiting class threads? Merely pointing out facts. Look at the top 20 classes from the past 5-6 years and tell me this is not the case.

I've posted numerous times that his 2018 class was very good and went well beyond my expectations (in the mid 40s), which I was told were much too low.
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You also tried to downgrade every recruit and the ranking after every commitment last summer. Obsession is pretty accurate.
 

PMWinSTP said:
Really. If that's your perception of obsession, then most out here are obsessed with it. How many pages are the recruiting class threads? Merely pointing out facts. Look at the top 20 classes from the past 5-6 years and tell me this is not the case.

I've posted numerous times that his 2018 class was very good and went well beyond my expectations (in the mid 40s), which I was told were much too low.
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The fact is as of today 247Sports has the class ranked as 19th overall and 4th in the B1G.
 


BarnBurner said:
Lumping Kill and Claeys is disingenuous at best. We know why you continue to do it.
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To be fair, think he was referring to my post where I lump Kill/Limegrover/Claeys recruiting into one since none of them seemed to add anything other than 3s.
 

scools12 said:
The fact is as of today 247Sports has the class ranked as 19th overall and 4th in the B1G.
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Want to make a bet on where the class ends up on NSD II? Shall we set an over/under?

I'm not critizing; there are a lot of great prospects but let's deal in reality here.
 



Pompous Elitist said:
Want to make a bet on where the class ends up on NSD II? Shall we set an over/under?

I'm not critizing; there are a lot of great prospects but let's deal in reality here.
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That's true. The reality is that our average ranking is not blowing off the barn doors right now.

I get stars in my eyes as much as anyone, but I'm coming around to the school of thought that high P5 offers are more revealing than ranking. Maybe I'm slow to the party.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
Want to make a bet on where the class ends up on NSD II? Shall we set an over/under?

I'm not critizing; there are a lot of great prospects but let's deal in reality here.
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You're correct...the blue-bloods will catch up over time and we will drop. I would put the over/under at about 39.5, which is still absolute light years ahead of our previous 1.5 regimes. It ridiculous to not admit that, according to the only metrics we have, we are not recruiting at a higher level under Fleck. We will just have to wait and see if success follows.

Fleck's recruiting, in my opinion, is very much like our new facilities. They don't guarantee success but they will at least put us in the same game with our peers. Kill benefited (to my complete joy) in the win/loss column from a very weak Big10. Nebraska, Michigan, and PSU were down - now they are all back (Nebraska is prediction, admittedly). Purdue was awful (seem to be on the upswing). Wisconsin, Illinois, and jNW are about comparable between tenures for better or worse. My overall point is that Fleck's increase in recruiting prowess may only net out to getting to the same 8/9 wins that Kill/Claeys did, but it's still better than what could have been. Maybe we will catch lightning in a bottle and win the West but we have a TON of ground to make up.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
Want to make a bet on where the class ends up on NSD II? Shall we set an over/under?

I'm not critizing; there are a lot of great prospects but let's deal in reality here.
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The class ranking will drop. That is the reality. Obsessing over pointing that out every single time is ridiculous.
 



I’m liking the effort and results in recruiting thus far. As the team gets better the recruiting should also get better. Would love to see Brock commit soon.
 

Trolls, do your homework before you make fools of yourself.

Class of 2017:
- only 11 schools had double digit 4 Star recruits in their class.
- only 3 schools had more than 3 recruits that were 5 Star
- 39 out of the top 50 classes had double digit 3 Star recruits

Obviously, most of the next tier schools (schools other than Alabama, OSU, etc..) can compete with a majority of 3 Star recruits in their recruiting classes. It is a little early to expect PJ to be filling his class with 4 and 5 Star recruits.
There are two major differences between the 3-Star PJ recruits and the Kill recruits. 1) PJ’s recruits have offers from several other P5 schools, Kill competed against the MAC. 2) PJ is getting very early commitments before they are fully evaluated by the rating services and Kill waited to the end and hoped to pickup diamonds in the rough.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

GopherHomer said:
You're correct...the blue-bloods will catch up over time and we will drop. I would put the over/under at about 39.5, which is still absolute light years ahead of our previous 1.5 regimes. It ridiculous to not admit that, according to the only metrics we have, we are not recruiting at a higher level under Fleck. We will just have to wait and see if success follows.

Fleck's recruiting, in my opinion, is very much like our new facilities. They don't guarantee success but they will at least put us in the same game with our peers. Kill benefited (to my complete joy) in the win/loss column from a very weak Big10. Nebraska, Michigan, and PSU were down - now they are all back (Nebraska is prediction, admittedly). Purdue was awful (seem to be on the upswing). Wisconsin, Illinois, and jNW are about comparable between tenures for better or worse. My overall point is that Fleck's increase in recruiting prowess may only net out to getting to the same 8/9 wins that Kill/Claeys did, but it's still better than what could have been. Maybe we will catch lightning in a bottle and win the West but we have a TON of ground to make up.
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Well put. That Kill coached the gophs to a within a game from the title game is a minor miracle.
 

GopherHomer said:
You're correct...the blue-bloods will catch up over time and we will drop. I would put the over/under at about 39.5, which is still absolute light years ahead of our previous 1.5 regimes. It ridiculous to not admit that, according to the only metrics we have, we are not recruiting at a higher level under Fleck. We will just have to wait and see if success follows.

Fleck's recruiting, in my opinion, is very much like our new facilities. They don't guarantee success but they will at least put us in the same game with our peers. Kill benefited (to my complete joy) in the win/loss column from a very weak Big10. Nebraska, Michigan, and PSU were down - now they are all back (Nebraska is prediction, admittedly). Purdue was awful (seem to be on the upswing). Wisconsin, Illinois, and jNW are about comparable between tenures for better or worse. My overall point is that Fleck's increase in recruiting prowess may only net out to getting to the same 8/9 wins that Kill/Claeys did, but it's still better than what could have been. Maybe we will catch lightning in a bottle and win the West but we have a TON of ground to make up.
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So we have gone from "Fleck will take us to higher levels than Kill and Claeys" to "if Fleck gets us back to the same level of Kill and Claeys, we should consider that an improvement"?
 



Hockeytown said:
Well put. That Kill coached the gophs to a within a game from the title game is a minor miracle.
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I don't think there is any doubt that Kill got the most out of his talent.
 

alchemy2u said:
Trolls, do your homework before you make fools of yourself.

Class of 2017:
- only 11 schools had double digit 4 Star recruits in their class.
- only 3 schools had more than 3 recruits that were 5 Star
- 39 out of the top 50 classes had double digit 3 Star recruits

Obviously, most of the next tier schools (schools other than Alabama, OSU, etc..) can compete with a majority of 3 Star recruits in their recruiting classes. It is a little early to expect PJ to be filling his class with 4 and 5 Star recruits.
There are two major differences between the 3-Star PJ recruits and the Kill recruits. 1) PJ’s recruits have offers from several other P5 schools, Kill competed against the MAC. 2) PJ is getting very early commitments before they are fully evaluated by the rating services and Kill waited to the end and hoped to pickup diamonds in the rough.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I’m not a PJ hater and I’m not expecting him to compete with Ohio State in recruiting, but he had better be very good at player development and Xs and Os then.

I wasn’t expecting 10+ 4-star players. If he’s really this good of a recruiter, we shouldn’t be trending back down towards below 40th in the rankings this year.

He can still win if he’s a developmental coach but I thought that’s what Kill was.
 

scools12 said:
The fact is as of today 247Sports has the class ranked as 19th overall and 4th in the B1G.
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Except that the team rankings aren't set in June, or December, or even February for that matter. We continued to slide through March of this year as late qualifiers and the truly elite talents (not the "elite" ones) made their decisions. We went through this with last year's class.

Right now, our average recruit ranking is 13th in the Big 10. If we're going to base our reactions on what things look like today, should we consider that as well? Probably not.
 

Kill's and Claeys class rankings, national and B1G:

2011 - 57 national, 12th in B1G (this is out of 12 B1G teams)
2012 - 59 national, 12th in B1G
2013 - 67 national, 14th in B1G
2014 - 57 national, 11th in B1G
2015- 63 national, 13th in B1G
2016 - 46 national, 8th in B1G
2017 - 59 national, 12th in B1G
2018 - 38 national, 7th in B1G
2019 (to-date) - 19 national, 4th in B1G

We brought Fleck in to be a superior recruiter compared to what we had seen previously. His first full class exceeded any class that the previous staffs had brought in. The 2019 class will also in all likelihood be superior to any class that the previous staffs brought in. Fleck has out-recruited the previous 2 staffs so far - there really shouldn't be any debate.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
In 6 years of Kill/Claeys recruiting, they were only able to land two 4*s, Jeff Jones and Carter Coughlin.
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Tommy Olson, Isaac Hayes, Jamel Harbison, Andre McDonald, Melvin Holland, Jr., Seth Green, and Dior Johnson were all 4-stars.
 

RickDornsby said:
I’m not a PJ hater and I’m not expecting him to compete with Ohio State in recruiting, but he had better be very good at player development and Xs and Os then.

I wasn’t expecting 10+ 4-star players. If he’s really this good of a recruiter, we shouldn’t be trending back down towards below 40th in the rankings this year.

He can still win if he’s a developmental coach but I thought that’s what Kill was.
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Kill was good at developing players at some positions and his real downfall was riding the Limegrover offense train too long. Kill never developed a QB or a WR the whole time he was here. PJ has coaches that have developed QB’s and WR’s. Hopefully they will step up.
Teams in that next tier have to be good at spotting raw talent, developing that talent and hiding their weaknesses. Any coach can win with a bunch of 5 and 4 Star recruits... well maybe not Rodriguez, or Hoke at Michigan.


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Was thinking about this today.

If the Gophers are going to go the "the next level," (meaning, having a legitimate chance to play for a division title, and potentially a conference title), then they need to become a 10 or 11-win team, at least.

with the 9-game conference schedule, a 10-win team is 3-0 in non-conf and 7-2 in Conference. 7-2 in conference means you've got a shot at a division title - unless both losses are within your division. An 11-win team is 3-0 in non-conf, and 8-1 in Conference play. 8-1 in conf is generally going to be playing for a division title (unless the only loss is to an undefeated team in the same division.)

So, to make the next level, the Gophers need to become a 10-win or 11-win team. To become a 10-win or 11-win team, they need better players. They need some top-150 type players (that's top 150 overall - not at their position).

So, the ultimate question is not whether Fleck is a better recruiter than previous coaches. He is. I stipulate to that. The Ultimate question is whether Fleck can recruit the caliber of player needed to put the Gophers into that 10-win or 11-win level.
 

bleedsmaroonandgold said:
So we have gone from "Fleck will take us to higher levels than Kill and Claeys" to "if Fleck gets us back to the same level of Kill and Claeys, we should consider that an improvement"?
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I'm not sure who "we" is, but in my opinion Fleck will lead us to more future success than Kill/Claeys would have but I'm not sure that will be more than 8 or 9 wins in a season. If we could mess with the space/time continuum and hire Fleck in 2010 I think he could have won the West in those down years...but that is not reality. In an ever improving conference, if Fleck can somehow surpass Kill's success it will be a minor miracle.
 

John Galt said:
Kill's and Claeys class rankings, national and B1G:

2011 - 57 national, 12th in B1G (this is out of 12 B1G teams)
2012 - 59 national, 12th in B1G
2013 - 67 national, 14th in B1G
2014 - 57 national, 11th in B1G
2015- 63 national, 13th in B1G
2016 - 46 national, 8th in B1G
2017 - 59 national, 12th in B1G
2018 - 38 national, 7th in B1G
2019 (to-date) - 19 national, 4th in B1G

We brought Fleck in to be a superior recruiter compared to what we had seen previously. His first full class exceeded any class that the previous staffs had brought in. The 2019 class will also in all likelihood be superior to any class that the previous staffs brought in. Fleck has out-recruited the previous 2 staffs so far - there really shouldn't be any debate.
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Here is a comparison of PJ Fleck's 2018 recruiting class and Jerry Kill's best recruiting class (2016):
FLECK YEAR 1 VS KILL 2016 BEST RECRUITING CLASS.jpg
 

John Galt said:
Kill's and Claeys class rankings, national and B1G:

2011 - 57 national, 12th in B1G (this is out of 12 B1G teams)
2012 - 59 national, 12th in B1G
2013 - 67 national, 14th in B1G
2014 - 57 national, 11th in B1G
2015- 63 national, 13th in B1G
2016 - 46 national, 8th in B1G
2017 - 59 national, 12th in B1G
2018 - 38 national, 7th in B1G
2019 (to-date) - 19 national, 4th in B1G

We brought Fleck in to be a superior recruiter compared to what we had seen previously. His first full class exceeded any class that the previous staffs had brought in. The 2019 class will also in all likelihood be superior to any class that the previous staffs brought in. Fleck has out-recruited the previous 2 staffs so far - there really shouldn't be any debate.
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Fleck was brought in to win. Correct?

Crootin is great. Just win pj.
 

dpodoll68 said:
Tommy Olson, Isaac Hayes, Jamel Harbison, Andre McDonald, Melvin Holland, Jr., Seth Green, and Dior Johnson were all 4-stars.
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This list just proves the point of how worthless these recruiting services "star" system is. Tommy Olson was excellent and Isaac Hayes was alright. The rest of them did not do much. Hopefully, Seth can figure it out.
 

dpodoll68 said:
Tommy Olson, Isaac Hayes, Jamel Harbison, Andre McDonald, Melvin Holland, Jr., Seth Green, and Dior Johnson were all 4-stars.
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I used 247's composite rankings. I see you also had to use ESPN's recruiting services to come up with those 4*s.

dpodoll68 said:
Right, so on ESPN (which sucks), Harris was not evaluated (there's no such thing as a "zero star") and McLaurin was rated more highly than guys like Andries and Handy-Holly - great indicators of their acumen. ESPN is so awesome that McLaurin is still listed as a Gopher recruit and part of the 2017 class despite neither of those things being true for the past year-plus.

People who cite ESPN's recruiting rankings are like people who use Bing for internet searches.
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short ornery norwegian said:
Was thinking about this today.

If the Gophers are going to go the "the next level," (meaning, having a legitimate chance to play for a division title, and potentially a conference title), then they need to become a 10 or 11-win team, at least.

with the 9-game conference schedule, a 10-win team is 3-0 in non-conf and 7-2 in Conference. 7-2 in conference means you've got a shot at a division title - unless both losses are within your division. An 11-win team is 3-0 in non-conf, and 8-1 in Conference play. 8-1 in conf is generally going to be playing for a division title (unless the only loss is to an undefeated team in the same division.)

So, to make the next level, the Gophers need to become a 10-win or 11-win team. To become a 10-win or 11-win team, they need better players. They need some top-150 type players (that's top 150 overall - not at their position).

So, the ultimate question is not whether Fleck is a better recruiter than previous coaches. He is. I stipulate to that. The Ultimate question is whether Fleck can recruit the caliber of player needed to put the Gophers into that 10-win or 11-win level.
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I continue to believe consistent recruiting classes in the 35-45 class rank range can absolutely get Gophs to your next level definition. In order to stay there, where Fleck was with last year's and probably this year's classes, the staff needs to develop/coach up these players (like Wisky has done for years) and win more games.
 



For what it's worth, Wisconsin's best rated class over the past five years has been 35th. They have had as many as 5 Four star players and as few as 1. I know we would all like to elevate our program to their level, at a minimum. I am hoping by getting this many recruits to commit this early gives us the ability to shoot for the (4-5) stars with our last 8-10 open spots.

I am as impatient as the next guy for our program to start racking up 9+ wins a year and win the west division. I do understand it is a process and in the end I am quite certain that Fleck can take this program miles past where it was headed under Kill/Claeys, and I loved those guys.

Recruit - Develop - Repeat
 

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