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discochris said:
Going back to 1990 or so, Georgia Tech, Washington, Colorado, USC, and Miami have all won some sort of recognized national championship, and they are all located in major metro areas where pro sports dominate.
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Yes. Agree with this point, but moreso for GT, Washington and Colorado.

USC is a helmet school and always will be. Like Notre Dame. And when they were winning, Miami was a helmet school.


Regardless, all of these share something that the Gophers either just plain don't have or haven't been able to do: they were able to recruit really well from hotbeds, to get their nationally competitive talent.

Miami, USC, and GT ... well that's obvious. They're right there. Tons of talent just in Miami, LA, and ATL alone, not to mention the proximal areas.

Washington, at various times, is able to recruit California talent really well, and supplement with home-state talent and other western talent as needed. Oregon has done the same thing.

Colorado, was able to recruit Texas really well during it's early 90's run, since it was in the Big XII and thus making multiple trips to Texas every year.


Minnesota has never been able to consistently pull off something equivalent like that. And 4/5* kids from the cities often get pulled out of state to other programs.
 

FanSinceTheFifties said:
But how does that explain why Iowa and Wisconsin were inferior to UM then and are now dominating us?
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Who said that Iowa and Wisconsin were inferior to MN then? When the Gophers and Iowa played on Nov. 5, 1960, Iowa was ranked No 1 in the country and MN was third. In the last game of the 1962 season Wisconsin defeated the Gophers (by way of a disputed roughing the passer penalty on Bobby Bell), and the Badgers went to the Rose Bowl instead of the Gophers. All three schools (and undoubtedly others in the north) benefited from the situation in the south.
 

discochris said:
Both won a national title in my lifetime. Minnesota hasn't come close.
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And neither Wisc nor Iowa have done it, in that same time frame.

Thing is, both those (along with the Gophers) have had to compete with Michigan and/or Ohio State. You can't win your conference if you don't beat one of those two, and if you didn't win the Big Ten you probably didn't win the natty.

Colorado was able to get by Neb, OU, Texas, and A&M during its run, and Wash similarly was able to get back the PAC power teams.
 

I'd be interested to see how much GT did or does lower their admissions standards for athletes, because that's a really tough school to get into. You basically have to be at the top of your class and they only have a 23% admissions rate.

I'm shocked nobody has mentioned that the Colorado and Washington programs that won titles were also dirty as hell (as was USC under Carroll), but honestly, that's not something I concern myself with. Just don't get caught.
 

discochris said:
I'd be interested to see how much GT did or does lower their admissions standards for athletes, because that's a really tough school to get into. You basically have to be at the top of your class and they only have a 23% admissions rate.

I'm shocked nobody has mentioned that the Colorado and Washington programs that won titles were also dirty as hell (as was USC under Carroll), but honestly, that's not something I concern myself with. Just don't get caught.
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I'm sure Kordell Stewart got a nice little money bag to come play for McCartney in Boulder.
 


MplsGopher said:
I'm sure Kordell Stewart got a nice little money bag to come play for McCartney in Boulder.
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So have a lot of guys. I don't care if a booster backs up a truck full of bags of cash, hookers, horse steroids and blow if it means the Gophers win a natty - just don't get caught. This is big time entertainment, a multi-billion dollar business, and big time programs do whatever it takes.
 

People hate the idea .... but I guarantee that Ohio State and Michigan are cutting as many corners as much as they think they can get away with and not get caught.
 

Of course they are. College football is a dirty, scummy enterprise (and basketball is probably worse). I've long since accepted that this is what goes on behind the scenes nearly everywhere. We just don't have any super rich boosters like Phil Knight or Boone Pickens.
 

MplsGopher said:
Colorado was able to get by Neb, OU, Texas, and A&M during its run, and Wash similarly was able to get back the PAC power teams.
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When Colorado won the 1990 national championship, their conference was still just eight teams and they didn’t play Texas or A&M.
 



Boomtime said:
I think a big share of the malcontents(me included) expected better results given the pre season hype from Fleck.

Perhaps next year, with lower expectations, we'll be pleasantly surprised?

Either way, Fleck is the HC for the forseeable future. Hopefully he grows as an in game manager.
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I mean I expected us to get top 3 in division. Would’ve guessed 3rd.
Am disappointed in the season.

not sure what people want.

I’m sorry I can’t bring myself to be as depressed as everyone else
 

Some guy said:
I mean I expected us to get top 3 in division. Would’ve guessed 3rd.
Am disappointed in the season.

not sure what people want.

I’m sorry I can’t bring myself to be as depressed as everyone else
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As I mentioned when I started posting here last spring?, I live in Winona and before I retired worked with Wisconsin residents and have relatives in Iowa.

Losing to those two programs is especially painful to me.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
Stocker - will you accept this:

there is room for more than just two opinions.

It's not a case of "everything sucks" vs "everything's fine."

I can be a fan of the program - want to see the team win - and still be critical when I see things I don't like.

there have been years the Gophers had virtually no shot at beating IA and WI. This year was supposed to be different.

And, for many of us, the biggest issue is that the same problems keep cropping up every week, and the coaching staff appears to be unwilling or unable to do anything about it - like making changes. that is really bleepin' frustrating. so I understand where the 'negative' posters are coming from.
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Yup. It is Jekyll & Hyde suck-fine.

The Gopher ran Mo down to the ground. Then Trey got seriously hurt. The Bryce.

If the running game is working well, I'd think they should be focusing on a good passing game too. They have become unidimensional. PJ Fleck has the power to fix that but chose not to. Is that out of stubbornness or the inability to admit some shortcomings because of loyalty to a QB and trusting the OC who likes to run the offense to the ground?

Instead, they continue to pour all the energy and focus on the run game. All Bielema needed to do was figure out how to shut down the run and disrupt Morgan and the dismal passing attack.

Then to rub salt into the wounds, they ran down the throat of the Gophers.

They have two games left. If they win both games, then I will tip my hats off to PJ Fleck. Sanford Jr. IMHO still needs to go.
 

BBJones said:
Who said that Iowa and Wisconsin were inferior to MN then? When the Gophers and Iowa played on Nov. 5, 1960, Iowa was ranked No 1 in the country and MN was third. In the last game of the 1962 season Wisconsin defeated the Gophers (by way of a disputed roughing the passer penalty on Bobby Bell), and the Badgers went to the Rose Bowl instead of the Gophers. All three schools (and undoubtedly others in the north) benefited from the situation in the south.
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I don't disagree that all three schools benefitted from a wider selection of athletes than were playing in the South. I'm disputing that Minnesota was weakened by the changes in the South while Iowa and Wisconsin were not. The difference was that Minnesota became a pro market and the other two did not.
 




MplsGopher said:
I don't agree that you can make this argument as a way to disprove the idea that being able to recruit Black student-athletes did help give the Gophers an advantage.

Objectively, it did.


What you can certainly say is, after that advantage fell away, Iowa and Wisconsin then did other things that (to this day...) have helped them remain relevant in football in the Big Ten, while Minnesota chose not to or did not do those same things.
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I agree. Maybe what they chose to do is to reduce emphasis on college sports because they saw that the pros were taking over the market. I don't know. But I have long believed that the reason UM doesn't compete well now is because the market turned pro.
discochris said:
Both won a national title in my lifetime. Minnesota hasn't come
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discochris said:
Looking at the records from the 50's and 60's, all three schools had up and down years. It's not as if Minnesota completely dominated the conference then.

Why have Iowa and Wisconsin dominated us most years since? I think the biggest reason is stability - finding and keeping a good coach, which makes people want to play there. Iowa has had two head coaches since 1979. Wisconsin has had more, but Alvarez has basically run that program since 1990.
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Why has it been difficult for UM to find and keep good coaches?
 

Boomtime said:
I think a big share of the malcontents(me included) expected better results given the pre season hype from Fleck.

Perhaps next year, with lower expectations, we'll be pleasantly surprised?

Either way, Fleck is the HC for the forseeable future. Hopefully he grows as an in game manager.
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No need to pay attention to pre-season hype from anyone, including Fleck. Anyone who follows team knew with the returning experiences and transfers this was as good a chance for Indy as 2019.
 


MplsGopher said:
Yes. Agree with this point, but moreso for GT, Washington and Colorado.

USC is a helmet school and always will be. Like Notre Dame. And when they were winning, Miami was a helmet school.


Regardless, all of these share something that the Gophers either just plain don't have or haven't been able to do: they were able to recruit really well from hotbeds, to get their nationally competitive talent.

Miami, USC, and GT ... well that's obvious. They're right there. Tons of talent just in Miami, LA, and ATL alone, not to mention the proximal areas.

Washington, at various times, is able to recruit California talent really well, and supplement with home-state talent and other western talent as needed. Oregon has done the same thing.

Colorado, was able to recruit Texas really well during it's early 90's run, since it was in the Big XII and thus making multiple trips to Texas every year.


Minnesota has never been able to consistently pull off something equivalent like that. And 4/5* kids from the cities often get pulled out of state to other programs.
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I disagree on Miami, it was pretty much a nothing program until Howard S. got it going back in the early 80s, then Jimmy Johnson, and Dennis Erickson turned it up a few notches. Larry Coker teased a couple more great seasons out of the fumes, then they got rid of him. That was pretty much the end of Miami Football being a "blue blood" 19 years ago.

Miami has not been much of anything since 2002 and they draw as badly as any so called P5 team, way worse than Minnesota, pro town or not. They have no real fan base, other than front runners and a St. Thomas like alumni base.

As nice is Boulder is, Colorado probably was cheating in the small window of greatness they had, and there is a reason, Washington, as far from any real hotbed of talent as Minnesota is, suddenly got going in the 90s as well, then regressed. My guess is they both were all out pushing the limits of the NCAA rules and skating by enough to win for a while. (standard old SWC, Big 8, SEC practice)

Both Washington and Oregon (Huskies, Ducks) and hundreds of miles from any base of talent other than the native born HS kids (on par with MN and Wi), yet somehow they get all these talented recruits?

Seattle is as close to Los Angeles as we are to Atlanta (18 hours), and the drive the Bay area longer than the drive from MSP to Nashville, yet all that talent flocks to UW and Oregon? No
 
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FanSinceTheFifties said:
Why has it been difficult for UM to find and keep good coaches?
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That's a good question. My fandom started in the Joe Salem era so I started at a low point.

Holtz was obviously a great hire and who knows what would have happened had he stayed. They should have hired another big name coach instead of promoting Guetekunst.

Wacker actually had a really good resume. He won four national titles at lower levels and won coach of the year honors at TCU, which was not an easy place to win then. The only reason he had a losing record at TCU is that he reported payment violations, kicked the best players off the team and then the team got hammered with sanctions. If he'd have kept his mouth shut they'd probably have been a top ten team. And I think the fact that he did have a squeaky clean rep is why he got hired.
I honestly don't know why Wacker failed here.

Mason lasted ten years. Only three coaches have lasted longer at Minnesota. I liked Mase, but I get why they fired him. The huge defensive collapses year after year. It was time to move on, but to a real coach - not who they hired.

Brew was an unmitigated disaster. I worried the first time I heard him interviewed that he was an idiot. He never should have been hired. Period. He ran a program full of goons, and I have no issue with that IF YOU WIN like Tom Osborne did. I have no clue why he was hired.

I said when Kill was hired they should have hired Mike Leach. I stand by that. But the U won't ever make the risky hire. And now we have Fleck. And I like Fleck, despite a few disappointments.
 

oak_street1981 said:
I disagree on Miami, it was pretty much a nothing program until Howard S. got it going back in the early 80s, then Jimmy Johnson, and Dennis Erickson turned it up a few notches. Larry Coker teased a couple more great seasons out of the fumes, then they got rid of him. That was pretty much the end of Miami Football being a "blue blood" 19 years ago.

Miami has not been much of anything since 2002 and they draw as badly as any so called P5 team, way worse than Minnesota, pro town or not. They have no real fan base, other than front runners and a St. Thomas like alumni base.

As nice is Boulder is, Colorado probably was cheating in the small window of greatness they had, and there is a reason, Washington, as far from any real hotbed of talent as Minnesota is, suddenly got going in the 90s as well, then regressed. My guess is they both were all out pushing the limits of the NCAA rules and skating by enough to win for a while. (standard old SWC, Big 8, SEC practice)

Both Washington and Oregon (Huskies, Ducks) and hundreds of miles from any base of talent other than the native born HS kids (on par with MN and Wi), yet somehow they get all these talented recruits?

Seattle is as close to Los Angeles as we are to Atlanta (18 hours), and the drive the Bay area longer than the drive from MSP to Nashville, yet all that talent flocks to UW and Oregon? No
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Of course McCartney and Neuheisel ran dirty programs at Colorado and Washington. So what? Their fans under age 70 have been able to enjoy a national championship. As long as they didn't get stripped like USC with the Reggie Bush thing, I don't care how they got there.
 

oak_street1981 said:
I disagree on Miami, it was pretty much a nothing program until Howard S. got it going back in the early 80s, then Jimmy Johnson, and Dennis Erickson turned it up a few notches. Larry Coker teased a couple more great seasons out of the fumes, then they got rid of him. That was pretty much the end of Miami Football being a "blue blood" 19 years ago.

Miami has not been much of anything since 2002 and they draw as badly as any so called P5 team, way worse than Minnesota, pro town or not. They have no real fan base, other than front runners and a St. Thomas like alumni base.

As nice is Boulder is, Colorado probably was cheating in the small window of greatness they had, and there is a reason, Washington, as far from any real hotbed of talent as Minnesota is, suddenly got going in the 90s as well, then regressed. My guess is they both were all out pushing the limits of the NCAA rules and skating by enough to win for a while. (standard old SWC, Big 8, SEC practice)

Both Washington and Oregon (Huskies, Ducks) and hundreds of miles from any base of talent other than the native born HS kids (on par with MN and Wi), yet somehow they get all these talented recruits?

Seattle is as close to Los Angeles as we are to Atlanta (18 hours), and the drive the Bay area longer than the drive from MSP to Nashville, yet all that talent flocks to UW and Oregon? No
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Good post, fair points.

One thing, I don't know if the Bay Area actually produces a ton of football talent, at least compared to its population. Probably some. Hate me all you want for saying it ... but it has to do with the base of Black population. There is some in the Bay Area, moreso on the East side (Oakland, etc.). But a lot of football talent in Cali comes from SoCal.

The other major thing is I think the weather/climate swing from SoCal to Eugene or even Seattle is a lot less than the swing from Texas/Southeast to Minnesota. It's the winters, they're brutal. Yeah, so then you say "but what about Madison and Iowa City". That's fine, I have nothing there.

Lastly, culture. I think out West is a different culture and perhaps a bit more homogenous that way along the West Coast. Minnesota ... it is what it is: a bunch of white people. Hate it all you want, but as a Black kid from the south ... that's completely different than what you grew up with. Again, "so what's different with IC or Madison?" Again, I have nothing there. I'm just putting out thoughts for Mpls relative to Texas and the Southeast.
 



Really, that 1 point loss @Illinois (top 25 at that time) is what kept them from the outright natty.

Well, that and the five down game. Still incredible.


GT was in the ACC, and that was very weak at that time. Florida State and Miami were independent back then.
 

discochris said:
That's a good question. My fandom started in the Joe Salem era so I started at a low point.

Holtz was obviously a great hire and who knows what would have happened had he stayed. They should have hired another big name coach instead of promoting Guetekunst.

Wacker actually had a really good resume. He won four national titles at lower levels and won coach of the year honors at TCU, which was not an easy place to win then. The only reason he had a losing record at TCU is that he reported payment violations, kicked the best players off the team and then the team got hammered with sanctions. If he'd have kept his mouth shut they'd probably have been a top ten team. And I think the fact that he did have a squeaky clean rep is why he got hired.
I honestly don't know why Wacker failed here.

Mason lasted ten years. Only three coaches have lasted longer at Minnesota. I liked Mase, but I get why they fired him. The huge defensive collapses year after year. It was time to move on, but to a real coach - not who they hired.

Brew was an unmitigated disaster. I worried the first time I heard him interviewed that he was an idiot. He never should have been hired. Period. He ran a program full of goons, and I have no issue with that IF YOU WIN like Tom Osborne did. I have no clue why he was hired.

I said when Kill was hired they should have hired Mike Leach. I stand by that. But the U won't ever make the risky hire. And now we have Fleck. And I like Fleck, despite a few disappointments.
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Season ticket holder since 1984. I think when Guete got promoted in 85 after Holtz left the U wanted to hire Bobby Ross. However it wasn’t popular with the players so Guete was the hire. Maybe somebody can chime in on it. I could be completely wrong!
 

Breakin' The Plane said:
The good news is that with season ticket holders choosing not to renew, that opens up more seats for the thousands of folks on the season ticket waiting list.
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You mean tens, or hundreds, right? No one is still riding the wave of popularity from 2019.
 

Ewert86PC said:
You mean tens, or hundreds, right? No one is still riding the wave of popularity from 2019.
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I was being sarcastic. There were 5,000 unsold tickets vs. Illinois. 4-game winning streak, the weather was absolutely perfect, and they couldn't sell it out.
I wonder if poor ticket sales are still a fireable offense?
 

Breakin' The Plane said:
I was being sarcastic. There were 5,000 unsold tickets vs. Illinois. 4-game winning streak, the weather was absolutely perfect, and they couldn't sell it out.
I wonder if poor ticket sales are still a fireable offense?
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Attendance issues exist all throughout college football and have for a few years.
 

Fleck is like a lot of coaches. That being bull-headed, stubborn and resistant to change. Morgan is very competitive but lacks some of the necessary skills for an elite QB. An average quarterback irregardless of his team mates makes for an average team. And that’s what we have. He has a massive offensive line and a good running game despite the injuries and still can’t get the job done. Hopefully they don’t lose to Indiana but they might. Simply put we need a more skilled QB!
 

Igor95 said:
Season ticket holder since 1984. I think when Guete got promoted in 85 after Holtz left the U wanted to hire Bobby Ross. However it wasn’t popular with the players so Guete was the hire. Maybe somebody can chime in on it. I could be completely wrong!
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I think that may be true. I know a guy who was involved in the program those years, so I might ask him next time I see him. As if they should let the players choose the coach...
 

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