2025 high school football thread

For shits and giggles, here are the ACTUAL enrollment numbers this year, as opposed to the adjusted high school league numbers. I think I filtered out any large middle and grade schools, as well as charter/online schools that have large enrollments. This is what 6A and 5A would be if they didn't adjust. Lakeville North would be the last 6A school. Armstrong would be the largest 5A school. Delano would be the smallest 5A school.
Next one down would be Columbia Heights.

Wayzata High​
3781​
Minnetonka Senior High​
3514​
Blaine High School​
3157​
Champlin Park High School​
2978​
Prior Lake High School​
2856​
Eden Prairie Senior High​
2844​
Shakopee High School​
2823​
Stillwater Area High School​
2658​
Edina Senior High​
2641​
White Bear Lake Area High School​
2572​
Maple Grove Senior High​
2453​
Rosemount Senior High​
2364​
Anoka High School​
2348​
Eastview Senior High​
2328​
Osseo Senior High​
2289​
Roseville Area Senior High​
2276​
Eagan Senior High​
2274​
St. Michael-Albertville Senior High​
2204​
Farmington High School​
2153​
Moorhead High School​
2122​
East Ridge High School​
2072​
Centennial High School​
2067​
Park Center IB World School​
2061​
Burnsville High School​
2029​
Hopkins High School​
2003​
Apple Valley Senior High​
1999​
Park High School​
1992​
Coon Rapids High School​
1975​
Woodbury High School​
1943​
Spring Lake Park Senior High​
1909​
Rogers Senior High​
1888​
Lakeville North High​
1871​
Robbinsdale Armstrong Senior High​
1840​
Mounds View Senior High​
1833​
Lakeville South High​
1816​
Irondale Senior High​
1812​
Forest Lake Area High School​
1805​
Brainerd Senior High​
1805​
Mayo High School​
1787​
Andover High School​
1758​
Two Rivers High School​
1710​
Tartan Senior High​
1687​
Jefferson High School​
1684​
Central Senior High​
1682​
Buffalo Senior High​
1681​
North Senior High​
1649​
Century High School​
1608​
Harding Senior High​
1591​
Cambridge-Isanti High School​
1582​
Kennedy High School​
1578​
Elk River Senior High​
1562​
Technical Senior High​
1561​
John Marshall High School​
1549​
Bemidji Senior High​
1537​
Washburn High​
1521​
Chaska High School​
1495​
East High School​
1495​
Austin Senior High​
1485​
Owatonna Senior High​
1468​
St. Louis Park Senior High​
1397​
Robbinsdale Cooper Senior High​
1396​
Highland Park Senior High​
1392​
Chanhassen High School​
1385​
Waconia High School​
1335​
Sauk Rapids-Rice Senior High​
1319​
Alexandria Area High School​
1315​
New Prague Senior High​
1315​
Monticello Senior High​
1313​
Mankato East Senior High​
1302​
Hastings High School​
1301​
Northfield Senior High​
1283​
Sartell Senior High​
1269​
Apollo Senior High​
1264​
South High​
1257​
Mankato West Senior High​
1232​
Willmar Senior High​
1205​
Albert Lea Senior High​
1196​
Southwest High​
1195​
Richfield Senior High​
1183​
Mahtomedi Senior High​
1175​
Delano Senior High​
1158​
I'm sorry for the stupid question but I didn't really understand your qualifier - These are the actual expected student enrollment numbers in 2025? Seriously?
 

I'm sorry for the stupid question but I didn't really understand your qualifier - These are the actual expected student enrollment numbers in 2025? Seriously?
So are the numbers on the MSHSL site after free and reduced is factored in?
 

I'm sorry for the stupid question but I didn't really understand your qualifier - These are the actual expected student enrollment numbers in 2025? Seriously?
The numbers are Oct headcount’s from 2024-25 if they came from MDE

If they come from MSHSL they’ve been hit with a Free and reduced multiplier

They’re 9-12 numbers for all schools even if 9th grade is at a junior high or two
 

The numbers are Oct headcount’s from 2024-25 if they came from MDE

If they come from MSHSL they’ve been hit with a Free and reduced multiplier

They’re 9-12 numbers for all schools
Wild. A lot has changed since my HS days 15+ years ago.
 

So are the numbers on the MSHSL site after free and reduced is factored in?
Correct. The numbers in the link in the very first post in this thread from the MSHSL site are adjusted for free and reduced lunch.

The numbers in the table I posted are the actual, non-adjusted, enrollment numbers for the current 2024-25 school year from the department of education.

So to use an example.
The real enrollment for Coon Rapids is 1975.
But the high school league uses an enrollment of 1575 for sports classification.
 


A

You mentioned Albert Lea.

Albert Lea is 50.67% reduced lunch.
1196-363 shows an adjusted enrollment of 833 just doing the math.

The high school league adjusted number for Albert Lea is 827. So pretty damn close.
It's not an 8-12 number. That's the difference between real and adjusted numbers.
Albert Lea HS enrollment does include grade 8.

 

Yes, it is somewhat subjective, but the system has a lot of subjectiveness now, with how they’ve granted some scheduling relief to the bottom half of 6A, and in how they set the two-year scheduling cycles.

If trying to have competitive games is at least a minor consideration, limiting 6A teams to only in-class games, which they don’t do for lower classes, seems to get in the way. Just allowing two non-6A games for the teams we’re talking about would give more flexibility to have games likelier to be competitive.
 

Albert Lea HS enrollment does include grade 8.

That may be, but that isn't how the high school league determines enrollment. They only count 9-12. There are small districts where the school is K-12 but that doesn't matter for this. I literally showed the formula, which was within 6 students.
 

That may be, but that isn't how the high school league determines enrollment. They only count 9-12. There are small districts where the school is K-12 but that doesn't matter for this. I literally showed the formula, which was within 6 students.
Trust me, there is no way ALHS has an actual enrollment of nearly 1200 for 9-12.
 









Not much of a 'state' championship with only 12-16 teams.
And there will always be some issues, particularly around open enrollment.

Minnetonka is the second largest school based on adjusted enrollment, and it's a wealthy district. But 25-40% of their students live outside the district and are open enrolled.

Hopkins is a large district with lots of wealthy neighborhoods. But a lot of those wealthy neighborhoods enroll their kids outside the district into Minnetonka and Edina.

I was talking to a friend who coached at Orono for a time. Orono might be the wealthiest district in the state. But it was hard to get a referendum passed he said, because so many of the families out there sent their kids to private school, and didn't give a shit about the public schools.
First bold: that wouldn't bother me personally, not that my feelings matter a hill of beans (they don't). My premise from the start has been that the true underlying purpose of 6A was to extract those "mega" schools away from all the rest. It's a shame, then, that 16 or so schools in the bottom half of that division that look nothing at all like those upper/"mega" schools had to be dragged up with them. Is my main point.

2nd bold: my criteria was meant to assess all of those factors together. Just being rich (or having rich property in the district boundary) wouldn't do it alone. I doubt that anyone who knows the schools well these days thinks Hopkins and Minnetonka are very much alike and should be playing each other in every sport and in the playoffs. Maybe 20+ years ago and back, but certainly not today

3rd bold: that could well be true ... but that said, Orono does quite well in sports at the lower level they compete in due to lower enrollment. When they play (wealthy) private schools, that seems like a fair matchup to me. Less fair when they play rural farm communities, due to a criteria of only enrollment.
 

What do you consider the bottom half of 6A? Enrollment?

If that is the case you'll have teams like Lakeville North, Lakeville South, Farmington, and East Ridge playing 5A schools...
Why would that be a bad thing, if we're talking metro schools in the upper half of 5A?
 

That just feels so subjective. You don't have to go back that far to when Burnsville to name one, was a powerhouse in football and hockey. And some of these schools are still powerhouses in other sports, despite the reduced lunch thing - Hopkins and Park Center in hoops.
Early 2000's is 20 years ago. Maybe it doesn't feel that way, but it is.

Football and basketball are very different, surely we can agree. I think it is perfectly fine to have separate criteria.


There certainly are ways to be objective when assessing both the high school program and the youth/feed program: what are their overall budgets and how many total kids are participating?

Those should be criteria in forming divisions, in my opinion.
 

The only fair way to do it is a formula and hard cut lines

There are no ties
Someone wins and someone loses

So if you game the system so Hopkins plays 5a teams and is 4-4 instead of 2-6

Well you just cost St. Louis park and tartan a win too. You can’t rig it in favor of one without rigging it against another. So best to not rig at all.

The only debates should be about the formula, the cut lines, and the structure
How are you defining that someone "rigged" the system, in this scenario?

What is wrong with Hopkins being 5A? They are not a good football program. Probably like St Louis Park these days.
 

Early 2000's is 20 years ago. Maybe it doesn't feel that way, but it is.

Football and basketball are very different, surely we can agree. I think it is perfectly fine to have separate criteria.


There certainly are ways to be objective when assessing both the high school program and the youth/feed program: what are their overall budgets and how many total kids are participating?

Those should be criteria in forming divisions, in my opinion.
1. I know. I figured someone would bring that up. 20 years is a lifetime.

2. The tough part about this, is that the youth/feeder programs aren't directly tied to the high school program in most cases, and can be run drastically different even in districts in the same youth league. The youth leagues themselves don't even play under the same rules, so how do you objectively judge them?
 

First bold: that wouldn't bother me personally, not that my feelings matter a hill of beans (they don't). My premise from the start has been that the true underlying purpose of 6A was to extract those "mega" schools away from all the rest. It's a shame, then, that 16 or so schools in the bottom half of that division that look nothing at all like those upper/"mega" schools had to be dragged up with them. Is my main point.
Correct.
The biggest thing 6a does is give a way for chaska, Chan, Alex, elk river, Mankato, etc to compete for state titles.

The downside is that it basically by policy has forced 6-10 teams in the state into permanent loser status. In 6a football, because it is closed loop, there are guaranteed 159 losses. Only 32 teams who can take those losses. (There are also 159 wins)
2nd bold: my criteria was meant to assess all of those factors together. Just being rich (or having rich property in the district boundary) wouldn't do it alone. I doubt that anyone who knows the schools well these days thinks Hopkins and Minnetonka are very much alike and should be playing each other in every sport and in the playoffs. Maybe 20+ years ago and back, but certainly not today
Yeah. That always happens though. Jefferson, Kennedy were in the same conference as Eden prairie just 14 years ago

3rd bold: that could well be true ... but that said, Orono does quite well in sports at the lower level they compete in due to lower enrollment. When they play (wealthy) private schools, that seems like a fair matchup to me. Less fair when they play rural farm communities, due to a criteria of only enrollment.
It’s hard to legislate winning and losing. Can’t do one without the other. So the fairest debates are about:
Enrollment calculation and multipliers
Cut lines
Season structure
Playoff structure
 

How are you defining that someone "rigged" the system, in this scenario?

What is wrong with Hopkins being 5A? They are not a good football program. Probably like St Louis Park these days.
So when coon rapids was supposed to be 6a a few years back…they appealed and said they couldn’t compete.

MSHSL made 6a 31 for two years.
In one of those years coon rapids went to 5a semifinals

So they rigged the system so coon rapids could win. But in doing so they made 5a teams lose to a 6a team and end their seasons.


Nothing wrong with Hopkins being 5a
But if you say Hopkins should be 5a so they have a chance to win, you’re telling St Louis Park to play Hopkins instead of tartan: and now St. Louis park picks up an extra loss so Hopkins can win.
anyone you “help” hurts someone else because there are no ties.
If you pick a winner; you’re also picking a loser.

If you arbitrarily move down Hopkins you’re saying that Hopkins is so bad they get to win.
Park and Osseo should’ve lost a couple more games so they can win too
 

You guys make a lot of great points.

End of the day for me: the biggest thing I fundamentally disagree with is defining that, for example 6A has to be the biggest 32 ... no matter what their actual numbers are.

Group schools and lines where it makes sense, with the actual number. Don't just arbitrarily say biggest 32, then next biggest 48, etc.

For 6A one cycle, maybe it's only 15 teams. Maybe the next cycle it's 20. Then 17. That shouldn't be an issue.
 

Why would that be a bad thing, if we're talking metro schools in the upper half of 5A?
Lakeville North and South are a couple of the better programs in 6A - South won the Prep Bowl in 2021 and was named 2020 Covid State Champions, North won the Prep Bowl in 2018.

I would guess in most years either of those programs would win 5A. Both programs can compete with any of the schools.

East Ridge lost the 6A Prep Bowl by 1 point in 2015 and is routinely a decent 6A program.

The uniuqe thing about Minnesota is that there are only a handful of 'big schools' and most of the rest of 6A are far smaller than them.

I don't necessarily disagree with your comment. I personally think there are too many classes but as another poster stated, it is due to the MSHSL's fascination with every team making the playoffs.
 

If public school lunches are now paid for by MN taxpayers, how can schools obtain the information who would qualify for free or reduced lunch?
 

Lakeville North and South are a couple of the better programs in 6A - South won the Prep Bowl in 2021 and was named 2020 Covid State Champions, North won the Prep Bowl in 2018.

I would guess in most years either of those programs would win 5A. Both programs can compete with any of the schools.

East Ridge lost the 6A Prep Bowl by 1 point in 2015 and is routinely a decent 6A program.

The uniuqe thing about Minnesota is that there are only a handful of 'big schools' and most of the rest of 6A are far smaller than them.

I don't necessarily disagree with your comment. I personally think there are too many classes but as another poster stated, it is due to the MSHSL's fascination with every team making the playoffs.
This past season there were a lot of either 6-0 or 7-0 teams in 5A, I can't remember which week it was exactly but I just remember being amazed how many good teams at the top of 5A there were. Elk River, Armstrong, some of the Outstate teams.

I think they'd give Lakeville's a run for their money.

I also laid out some other criteria I would like to see incorporated. I'm wild guessing that Lakeville only has one single, unified youth/feeder football association. Not sure how football is handled for middle schools ... if they play for school or associations in grades 7 & 8? Anyway, point being is I bet it would be pretty straightforward to understand how many participants and budget at those lower levels. Guessing Lakeville would be one of the largest in the state .... being able to feed two large, competitive high schools. That could be a consideration for bumping them up beyond their simple enrollment numbers, is my point

Thanks for the post!
 

If public school lunches are now paid for by MN taxpayers, how can schools obtain the information who would qualify for free or reduced lunch?
Because that’s just the vernacular name for it
There are still federal qualifications for reductions to things like field trips, AP Tests, Etc

There is a new way of calculating it this year I think which could explain some of the volatility. People weren’t opting in post pandemic with free meals already there. I don’t quite understand the new mechanism
 

This past season there were a lot of either 6-0 or 7-0 teams in 5A, I can't remember which week it was exactly but I just remember being amazed how many good teams at the top of 5A there were. Elk River, Armstrong, some of the Outstate teams.

I think they'd give Lakeville's a run for their money.

I also laid out some other criteria I would like to see incorporated. I'm wild guessing that Lakeville only has one single, unified youth/feeder football association. Not sure how football is handled for middle schools ... if they play for school or associations in grades 7 & 8? Anyway, point being is I bet it would be pretty straightforward to understand how many participants and budget at those lower levels. Guessing Lakeville would be one of the largest in the state .... being able to feed two large, competitive high schools. That could be a consideration for bumping them up beyond their simple enrollment numbers, is my point

Thanks for the post!
I think that last year the following teams would’ve been top 20 in 6a:
Owatonna
JM
Chanhassen
St Thomas academy
Armstrong
Cooper
Elk River
Andover
Moorhead
Alexandria

Every year the top 10-15 in 5a are better than the bottom 8-12 in 6a
In my opinion


There is a question if they could hold up against the whole 6a schedule. But the bottom 8-12 can’t either. So there is no question they’re better than the bottom 8.

If Elk River played against white bear lake (who was a 6 seed and 21 in the QRF) I would probably pick elk river at least -15
 

I think that last year the following teams would’ve been top 20 in 6a:
Owatonna
JM
Chanhassen
St Thomas academy
Armstrong
Cooper
Elk River
Andover
Moorhead
Alexandria

Every year the top 10-15 in 5a are better than the bottom 8-12 in 6a
In my opinion


There is a question if they could hold up against the whole 6a schedule. But the bottom 8-12 can’t either. So there is no question they’re better than the bottom 8.

If Elk River played against white bear lake (who was a 6 seed and 21 in the QRF) I would probably pick elk river at least -15
I actually think this would be better for the sport. It spreads out the winning and losing and allows for some potential upsets. Could add to the group and make Class 6A 48 teams.
 

I actually think this would be better for the sport. It spreads out the winning and losing and allows for some potential upsets. Could add to the group and make Class 6A 48 teams.
You don’t even need to change it for playoffs
Just make the district more like 48-64 for regular season. Instead of 32.
 

This past season there were a lot of either 6-0 or 7-0 teams in 5A, I can't remember which week it was exactly but I just remember being amazed how many good teams at the top of 5A there were. Elk River, Armstrong, some of the Outstate teams.

I think they'd give Lakeville's a run for their money.

I also laid out some other criteria I would like to see incorporated. I'm wild guessing that Lakeville only has one single, unified youth/feeder football association. Not sure how football is handled for middle schools ... if they play for school or associations in grades 7 & 8? Anyway, point being is I bet it would be pretty straightforward to understand how many participants and budget at those lower levels. Guessing Lakeville would be one of the largest in the state .... being able to feed two large, competitive high schools. That could be a consideration for bumping them up beyond their simple enrollment numbers, is my point

Thanks for the post!
Yeah, it would be interesting. 3 of the 4 teams I thought of that are 'smaller' 6A schools are the Lakeville's and East Ridge. Lakeville obviously has North and South and East Ridge is part of South Washington ISD with Woodbury & Park.

I believe Lakeville has two separate youth programs through each school and doesn't play middle school football... only association ran.

Agree, the top of 5A is pretty good football. I think you are right in that the bottom 6A and top 5A are pretty similar. Bottom 6A to the bottom 5A is a huge difference, and I would assume the top 4A teams would beat the bottom 5A teams, etc.
 

Yes, and so if you do the math backwards, it's just under 1050 for real enrollment for 9-12.
>50% for free and reduced for Albert Lea is pretty high.
Albert Lea has gone through many changes according to an article that I had read. Good paying jobs are no longer available like they use to be due to management changes and closures. What I don't get though, they have interstate 90 and 35 running through the end of town. You think it would be good for growth of the community. Instead, the article continues to say that a meeting was being set up to deal with the decreased of students at the schools over the years.

Despite smaller numbers, the wrestling team still competes in the upper division, but they do get wrestlers from a couple of smaller towns around them.
 




Top Bottom