Returning Playas for 2024-25

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bga1 said:
I hope this is finally the year where we go to a defensive grinder mentality. That is the ONLY way we can win here under the current rules of play. We are not going to be able to have a team of guys that can just outscore people. That costs too much for our budget.

Last year, we were a finesse team, outside of Payne, that would try to outscore the opposition with good shooting
As I look at the upcoming squad, most of these guys fit that physical, defender mode, especially the portal transfers. Mike Mitchell is a bulldog, Fox is the ultimate hustle guy and I thought Garcia upped his game defensively last year. Asuma, while lacking the sheer speed of Hawkins, does give us a much more physical player, even as a freshman. I feel like only Williams and Grove (because he is a freshman) might not fit that mold this coming year.

Play 9 or 10 guys and just go all out on defense. What the TWolves did with length and effort on defense last night was amazing. I'd like to see us do that at the college level.
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Good luck with that. Seeing is believing.
 

bga1 said:
I hope this is finally the year where we go to a defensive grinder mentality. That is the ONLY way we can win here under the current rules of play. We are not going to be able to have a team of guys that can just outscore people. That costs too much for our budget.

Last year, we were a finesse team, outside of Payne, that would try to outscore the opposition with good shooting
As I look at the upcoming squad, most of these guys fit that physical, defender mode, especially the portal transfers. Mike Mitchell is a bulldog, Fox is the ultimate hustle guy and I thought Garcia upped his game defensively last year. Asuma, while lacking the sheer speed of Hawkins, does give us a much more physical player, even as a freshman. I feel like only Williams and Grove (because he is a freshman) might not fit that mold this coming year.

Play 9 or 10 guys and just go all out on defense. What the TWolves did with length and effort on defense last night was amazing. I'd like to see us do that at the college level.
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I appreciate your optimism, in regards to us becoming a grinding, defensive team. The one thing I'd take issue with here is that Mike Mitchell is no bulldog. He was arguably our worst defender last season (It may have been Christie). He got marginally better toward the end of the season going from awful, to below average. He really needs to focus on the team defense aspect, because physically he's not particularly quick, or physical.
 


fan of Ray Williams said:
Good luck with that. Seeing is believing.
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I agree...I too would have to see it to believe it. That said- there ended up being a pretty big gap between our core 6-7 guys and the next couple on the list in terms of productivity on the court. JOJ at times looked special but in terms of efficiency on both ends- he wasn't...so he ended up on the pine.

This year without Christie, Hawkins and Payne- perhaps the difference between a starter and a depth player narrows to the point where there are 9-10 guys that can play without affecting the quality of play on the court. We'll see.
 

Costa Rican Gopher said:
I appreciate your optimism, in regards to us becoming a grinding, defensive team. The one thing I'd take issue with here is that Mike Mitchell is no bulldog. He was arguably our worst defender last season (It may have been Christie). He got marginally better toward the end of the season going from awful, to below average. He really needs to focus on the team defense aspect, because physically he's not particularly quick, or physical.
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Mitchell was far from perfect on defense but he was second to Hawkins in steals (1.5 steals per game) and he got his by recognizing where an opponent was going to pass. He was good at it. He's feisty.
 


howeda7 said:
What in the past 3 seasons makes you believe Ben will play 10 guys regularly or play ferocious defense? He never uses more than 7, and the defense last year was pretty bad. The last 6 games of the regular season it was awful.
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I see your point, but maybe BGA1 is onto to something here?

It's a whole new, uncharted landscape in college basketball now. Last year CBJ couldn't go deeper into his bench because half the underclassmen were throwing tantrums, walking away from the team, and threatening to transfer if they didn't get more minutes.

Allegedly JoJ, Payne, Carrington & Mike Mitchell (at least) were all unhappy with their roles. Imagine having to coach every game wondering who's going to quit (Carrington), or threaten to enter the portal in the locker room after a game (JoJ) if they don't start, or lose minutes? By the end of the season CBJ simply wouldn't play JoJ any more because of his behavior, but would have if he could have. JoJ, Carrington & Payne were roomates. How toxic does that sound?

With this current roster, nearly everyone is a Senior, and has nowhere to transfer to if they don't get the minutes they demand. The only guys who could transfer after the season are Asuma who almost certainly will be the starting PG if he stays, Grove, Betts & Frank MItchell. With this roster, CBJ doesn't have to worry about guys bailing if they don't get the treatmment they desire.
 

MNVCGUY said:
Hold a spot for Christie and if he doesn't come back give the scholarship to a walk-on.
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I wonder if there will be any quality transfer portal guys that will wait until after the NBA Draft withdrawal date to sign. I mean, it could end up biting someone in the butt...

Let's say that Minnesota is an attractive destination for a quality transfer. If that transfer commits somewhere else and Christie stays in the draft, they may have settled for a program lower down their list.
 

Ski-U-Ham said:
I wonder if there will be any quality transfer portal guys that will wait until after the NBA Draft withdrawal date to sign. I mean, it could end up biting someone in the butt...

Let's say that Minnesota is an attractive destination for a quality transfer. If that transfer commits somewhere else and Christie stays in the draft, they may have settled for a program lower down their list.
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Acquire Ken Evans Jr. to replace Christie.
EVANS is better next year (especially defensively) and both of them will be gone the following year when Christie develops into his projected self.
 

Costa Rican Gopher said:
I see your point, but maybe BGA1 is onto to something here?

It's a whole new, uncharted landscape in college basketball now. Last year CBJ couldn't go deeper into his bench because half the underclassmen were throwing tantrums, walking away from the team, and threatening to transfer if they didn't get more minutes.

Allegedly JoJ, Payne, Carrington & Mike Mitchell (at least) were all unhappy with their roles. Imagine having to coach every game wondering who's going to quit (Carrington), or threaten to enter the portal in the locker room after a game (JoJ) if they don't start, or lose minutes? By the end of the season CBJ simply wouldn't play JoJ any more because of his behavior, but would have if he could have. JoJ, Carrington & Payne were roomates. How toxic does that sound?

With this current roster, nearly everyone is a Senior, and has nowhere to transfer to if they don't get the minutes they demand. The only guys who could transfer after the season are Asuma who almost certainly will be the starting PG if he stays, Grove, Betts & Frank MItchell. With this roster, CBJ doesn't have to worry about guys bailing if they don't get the treatmment they desire.
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Beeg is hitting the Hopium hard. Can't blame him. I probably would too if I had season tickets to renew.

But coaches whose teams are poor to mediocre defensively for 3 years don't usually suddenly have great defensive teams in year 4. And coaches who pretty heavily subscribe to play 8 trust 7 (or play 7 trust 6 really) don't suddenly start pressing and running 10-11 guys out there too often.
 



howeda7 said:
Beeg is hitting the Hopium hard. Can't blame him. I probably would too if I had season tickets to renew.

But coaches whose teams are poor to mediocre defensively for 3 years don't usually suddenly have great defensive teams in year 4. And coaches who pretty heavily subscribe to play 8 trust 7 (or play 7 trust 6 really) don't suddenly start pressing and running 10-11 guys out there too often.
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Your points are valid. Even if we get Patterson, I'm not very optimistic about our roster. It looks like we'd need a miracle to be as good as we were last season. That said, here we are. Hope's all I've got.
 

howeda7 said:
Beeg is hitting the Hopium hard.
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You aren't wrong.
howeda7 said:
Can't blame him. I probably would too if I had season tickets to renew.

But coaches whose teams are poor to mediocre defensively for 3 years don't usually suddenly have great defensive teams in year 4. And coaches who pretty heavily subscribe to play 8 trust 7 (or play 7 trust 6 really) don't suddenly start pressing and running 10-11 guys out there too often.
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What you say there is usually true.
 

Costa Rican Gopher said:
I appreciate your optimism, in regards to us becoming a grinding, defensive team. The one thing I'd take issue with here is that Mike Mitchell is no bulldog. He was arguably our worst defender last season (It may have been Christie). He got marginally better toward the end of the season going from awful, to below average. He really needs to focus on the team defense aspect, because physically he's not particularly quick, or physical.
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Defense is a lot attitude, and Mitchell has it. Moot point but our worst defenders imo last season were in order:
JOJ
Ihnen
Christie
Hawkins
Mitchell
Payne

Garcia was our best defender by far and should have been heavily considered for BigTen Def POY based on his body of work.

MN will without question be improved defensively in '24-'25, but the Big Ten will be superior. Our best roster would be getting PG Hoggard from MSU, but that won't happen with CBJ/Izzo, as he didn't tamper with Payne.
 




Costa Rican Gopher said:
Your points are valid. Even if we get Patterson, I'm not very optimistic about our roster. It looks like we'd need a miracle to be as good as we were last season. That said, here we are. Hope's all I've got.
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The crazy part with all the roster churn in college basketball is that we really don't know how any of these rebuilt teams are truly going to look until they actually get a chance to play.

We will have a roster with a ton of experienced players so hopefully like the year one team they can gel quickly. But there is just no way to know how all the new faces will fit together.

Ben's job likely depends on him finding a way to improve on last year and make the tournament. Tall order when having to remake the majority of the roster again but it is what it is at this point. He either finds a way to make it happen or the school is likely looking for a new coach after the season.
 

SplitDecision said:
Garcia was our best defender by far and should have been heavily considered for BigTen Def POY based on his body of work.
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Have you watched a game of basketball in your life? Garcia should have been DPOY??? This has to be a joke right?

Let's look at some numbers. DBPM (how much better per 100 possessions you are in defense than average) Garcia 1.0, Hawkins 1.5, cam 0.6, Fox 3.6, K. Ware 2.7, Cliff O 5.1!. Ok how about defense rebound rate Garcia 18%, Payne 18%, Fox 16.2, Ware 26%, Cliff 24%. Or maybe block % Garcia 3.2%, Payne 5.8, Fox 5.6, Ware 6.5, Cliff 12.8!!

Sure some numbers can have a little noise and the other 4 guys matter, as does the system. But Garcia was by almost every metric a very very average defensive player. Look at those numbers, and I'm not even including Edey because that seemed unfair! Your general opinions are usually awful takes but this one might be the topper for your lack of understanding of the game. 🤦‍♂️
 

SplitDecision said:
Defense is a lot attitude, and Mitchell has it. Moot point but our worst defenders imo last season were in order:
JOJ
Ihnen
Christie
Hawkins
Mitchell
Payne

Garcia was our best defender by far and should have been heavily considered for BigTen Def POY based on his body of work.

MN will without question be improved defensively in '24-'25, but the Big Ten will be superior. Our best roster would be getting PG Hoggard from MSU, but that won't happen with CBJ/Izzo, as he didn't tamper with Payne.
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Garcia had some flashes of solid D, especially when switching off to guards, staying in front of, and altering shots, but this is a wild statement. He was dominated by more physical posts regularly...
 

leib0039 said:
Have you watched a game of basketball in your life? Garcia should have been DPOY??? This has to be a joke right?

Let's look at some numbers. DBPM (how much better per 100 possessions you are in defense than average) Garcia 1.0, Hawkins 1.5, cam 0.6, Fox 3.6, K. Ware 2.7, Cliff O 5.1!. Ok how about defense rebound rate Garcia 18%, Payne 18%, Fox 16.2, Ware 26%, Cliff 24%. Or maybe block % Garcia 3.2%, Payne 5.8, Fox 5.6, Ware 6.5, Cliff 12.8!!

Sure some numbers can have a little noise and the other 4 guys matter, as does the system. But Garcia was by almost every metric a very very average defensive player. Look at those numbers, and I'm not even including Edey because that seemed unfair! Your general opinions are usually awful takes but this one might be the topper for your lack of understanding of the game. 🤦‍♂️
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Two years ago, Garcia was terrible on defense. Last year I felt he got noticeably better. Having Payne next to him on the defensive end helped, even though they were not always great together on offense. Garcia needs to take another step on defense next year.
 

bga1 said:
Two years ago, Garcia was terrible on defense. Last year I felt he got noticeably better. Having Payne next to him on the defensive end helped, even though they were not always great together on offense. Garcia needs to take another step on defense next year.
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Garcia is a terrific two-way player, and his defense is woefully overlooked. He limits the opposition without fouling excessively, is fundamentally sound, and without him on the floor we were disadvantaged. I think he should have at least been nominated for DPOY. Not going to die on that hill though!
 

Payne replaced by Mitchell /Edmonds.
Hawkins replaced by Patterson/Asuma
(Projected)
Christie replaced by Odukale/Evans (projected)
Carrington replaced by Rigsby/Williams
JOJ replaced by Grove
Ihnen replaced by Reader
Keinys replaced by Betts
Garcia, Fox and Mike Mitchell return as starters.
I can live with that!
 

Sane24 said:
Payne replaced by Mitchell /Edmonds.
Hawkins replaced by Patterson/Asuma
(Projected)
Christie replaced by Odukale/Evans (projected)
Carrington replaced by Rigsby/Williams
JOJ replaced by Grove
Ihnen replaced by Reader
Keinys replaced by Betts
Garcia, Fox and Mike Mitchell return as starters.
I can live with that!
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I have given up hope on Evans- I think he would be a great get for this squad!
 

I have given up hope on Evans- I think he would be a great get for this squad!
[/QUOTE]
He hasn't committed to any other team yet, so until he makes a decision to do so, I will continue to hope.
 

Sane24 said:
Payne replaced by Mitchell /Edmonds.
Hawkins replaced by Patterson/Asuma
(Projected)
Christie replaced by Odukale/Evans (projected)
Carrington replaced by Rigsby/Williams
JOJ replaced by Grove
Ihnen replaced by Reader
Keinys replaced by Betts
Garcia, Fox and Mike Mitchell return as starters.
I can live with that!
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Using last year's top 8 as a baseline +/-:

1. Hawkins to Patterson: (-1)
2. Mike Mitchell No change
3. Christie to Okudale: (-2)
4. Garcia: No change
5. Payne to Mitchell: (-1)

(Bench players weighted 50%)
6. Parker Fox: +0.5. He was better late in the year so a full season at full strength is an upgrade.
7. Carrington to Rigsby/Asuma: Even. Probably better offense but we'll miss Carrington's defense.
8. JOJ to Edmonds: +0.5.

Net Change (-3). That would put MN at 6-14 in the B1G. I'd say the ceiling is 10-10 and the floor 2-18.
 

Sane24 said:
Payne replaced by Mitchell /Edmonds.
Hawkins replaced by Patterson/Asuma
(Projected)
Christie replaced by Odukale/Evans (projected)
Carrington replaced by Rigsby/Williams
JOJ replaced by Grove
Ihnen replaced by Reader
Keinys replaced by Betts
Garcia, Fox and Mike Mitchell return as starters.
I can live with that!
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Whether we are upgraded or not depends on how the new guys defend…
 

SplitDecision said:
Whether we are upgraded or not depends on how the new guys defend…
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Just the fact that two replacements exist for one ex-player at several positions is an upgrade.
Playing 10-11 players in the rotation is a huge upgrade if CBJ will actually use that size rotation.
We can play at a faster pace without the team-wide fatigue factor that killed us late last season and in the tournaments.
 

Sane24 said:
Just the fact that two replacements exist for one ex-player at several positions is an upgrade.
Playing 10-11 players in the rotation is a huge upgrade if CBJ will actually use that size rotation.
We can play at a faster pace without the team-wide fatigue factor that killed us late last season and in the tournaments.
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Not going to happen.
 


The returning players should be BETTER than last year because of experience gained.
It's not the NBA where the older players degenerate with age.
 

SplitDecision said:
Whether we are upgraded or not depends on how the new guys defend…
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This is the issue. We played lousy defense last year. In their last 7 losses of the year they gave up an average of 84 per game. That's dreadful at the college level.

I was excited for the coming year if all the key guys came back but that was with the hope that they would improve a lot on the defensive side.
 

I would like to see aggression on D by picking up 3/4 to hall court and hounding teams.

The Wolves for example have been picking up Murray @ 62.5 feet and it totally disrupts the Nugs O. Use our depth to do this.

This will lead to turnovers and creating tougher O looks for the opponent, while building an identity for the team. This is a way you can combat a team who is physically more talented than you.
 
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What was the word cbj used to describe how the team was gunna play def 3 yrs ago when he was hired... Gritty?? I don't remember exactly... I do know we haven't seen anything resembling that yet..... I doubt it changes
 

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