All Things 2023 Minnesota Vikings Off-Season Thread

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Gophers_4life said:
JJ has offensive player of the year. He'll have as much money as he could possibly get.

Not going to win MVP unless we win the Super Bowl. :)

Not much left to do but go win it all baby! Barring tragic injury (and maybe still anyway), he's safe for the HoF.
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The Hall of Fame for JJ is great. But I think you stated that the only goal that matters is winning The Big One.

Cris Carter is in the Hall. Randy Moss is in the Hall. No Super Bowl rings, though.
 

RememberMurray said:
The Hall of Fame for JJ is great. But I think you stated that the only goal that matters is winning The Big One.

Cris Carter is in the Hall. Randy Moss is in the Hall. No Super Bowl rings, though.
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You, perhaps unintentionally, implied he would not want to stay here without guarantees of a veteran QB.

I disagree, and laid out what I think is a reasonable argument for why winning the big one should align well with his career goals.


If he literally only cares about breaking the all time records for receptions, yardage, TD's etc., then go for it.
 

Gophers_4life said:
You, perhaps unintentionally, implied he would not want to stay here without guarantees of a veteran QB.

I disagree, and laid out what I think is a reasonable argument for why winning the big one should align well with his career goals.


If he literally only cares about breaking the all time records for receptions, yardage, TD's etc., then go for it.
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No, that's not what I'm saying.

You and I agreed that the only goal that matters is winning The Big One.

You said the best way to achieve that is to dump Cousins and pay JJ.

I say making JJ the highest-paid player on the team, dumping Cousins and starting over with a rookie QB seems questionable at best.

Remember: it's all about winning The Big One. Which position is more crucial to winning The Big One: QB or WR?
 

Look at KC...they invested heavy in QB and let Hill go and still won the SB this year. I know comparing Cousins (or almost any QB for that matter) to Mahomes is a different story
 

This is opinion based on my own observations but I've never seen a Super Bowl-winning team led by a wide receiver.

And I know for a fact that no rookie QB has ever led a team to a Super Bowl win. Not in 57 Super Bowls to date.

It also seems beyond obvious that any WRs' ability to impact a game is somewhat dependent on having pretty good QB play.
 


tmvander said:
Look at KC...they invested heavy in QB and let Hill go and still won the SB this year. I know comparing Cousins (or almost any QB for that matter) to Mahomes is a different story
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It is relevant, because if we dump Cousins we can't replace him with Mahomes. He ain't available.

We would replace Cousins with a rookie, more than likely.
 

RememberMurray said:
It is relevant, because if we dump Cousins we can't replace him with Mahomes. He ain't available.

We would replace Cousins with a rookie, more than likely.
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right i'm just saying that focusing on QB rather than star WR has been proven to work as well...granted, again, its an extreme case of best QB in football and top 3-5 WR vs top WR in football and top 10-15 QB
 

tmvander said:
right i'm just saying that focusing on QB rather than star WR has been proven to work as well...granted, again, its an extreme case of best QB in football and top 3-5 WR vs top WR in football and top 10-15 QB
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I'm agreeing with you.

I love JJ, but I am not a huge fan of making any WR the highest-paid player on my team.
 

It looks like the Vikings are going to stand pat for 2023 with Cousins. I think that is wise. It also looks like they may be moving on from Cousins in 2024. That's where it will get interesting. While you must eventually find the QB of the future, are you willing to risk possible struggles in the short-term in order to develop a young guy? I suppose they pretty much have to do that.

Which leaves the question of JJ. If you sign a WR to a mega-contract, does it make sense to do so with the knowledge that the QB throwing to your highly-paid WR will be learning as he goes?
 




RememberMurray said:
It is relevant, because if we dump Cousins we can't replace him with Mahomes. He ain't available.
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Might be though.

You’ll never be able to have a Mahomes on a rookie contract unless you’re the one that drafted him.

So you either have to try, and then get lucky, or you have to pay market-precedent setting top dollar to bring a proven one in.


Cousins won’t get us the big one. That’s the most probable thing that we know today.
 

RememberMurray said:
Okay. Lets' assume the only mission that matters is winning 'The Big One'.

With that one, crucial goal in mind, is it wise to have a wide receiver taking up the biggest chunk of salary cap on your roster? Is that the best path forward to winning 'The Big One'?
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If you have Patrick Mahomes/Joe Burrow/Josh Allen, you trade the WR because you can't afford both. If you don't have that, you keep the WR and hope he helps your cheap rookie QB become the next Mahomes/Burrow/Allen. Eventually you will have to part ways with one or the other but not for 4-5 years.
 

Or if you’re the Rams I guess you get lucky as hell on Stafford for $20M.

I don’t think anyone thinks that’s a high probability way to go.
 



Gophers_4life said:
We agree on going for the big one. How would you do it then?
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It isn't an easy question to answer, that's for certain.

I think I would let Cousins walk after 2023, unless he becomes willing to listen to a lowball contract with a low cap liability and no long-term commitment. Either way, I'm looking at QB drafting sometime soon.

Then there's JJ. I know this goes against fan sentiment, because JJ is a fan favorite and rightfully so. But I'd send out some feelers and see what I could get for him in a trade. I'm assuming he is serious about wanting a huge contract. Not that he doesn't deserve one, but if I'm basically in charge of a rebuild in Minnesota I'm not going to handcuff myself with a giant contract for a WR.
 
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Gophers_4life said:
Or if you’re the Rams I guess you get lucky as hell on Stafford for $20M.

I don’t think anyone thinks that’s a high probability way to go.
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A high probability? No. But (correct me if I'm wrong) I don't believe there is a high probability of getting the next Mahomes in any given draft, either.

No matter how a team approaches this, they will need more than a little luck to succeed.
 

howeda7 said:
If you have Patrick Mahomes/Joe Burrow/Josh Allen, you trade the WR because you can't afford both. If you don't have that, you keep the WR and hope he helps your cheap rookie QB become the next Mahomes/Burrow/Allen. Eventually you will have to part ways with one or the other but not for 4-5 years.
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That's one way to go. And as I said, I love JJ.

But if I'm a GM, running a team, I don't like committing myself to a gigantic contract for a WR. I would never do it for a running back, either, not matter how great he is. To me, the top three positions on an NFL team are QB, blindside tackle, rush end. Not WR.
 

RememberMurray said:
A high probability? No. But (correct me if I'm wrong) I don't believe there is a high probability of getting the next Mahomes in any given draft, either.

No matter how a team approaches this, they will need more than a little luck to succeed.
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True. I mean even if we had Kirk for $20M a year that’s something.

Don’t think there are ever going to be many Stafford Cousins guys at $20M “just get me outta here” situations to give it a shot. More hope in the draft route.
 

RememberMurray said:
That's one way to go. And as I said, I love JJ.

But if I'm a GM, running a team, I don't like committing myself to a gigantic contract for a WR. I would never do it for a running back, either, not matter how great he is. To me, the top three positions on an NFL team are QB, blindside tackle, rush end. Not WR.
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Maybe most of the time.

Calvin Johnson, JJ types can be exceptions.
 

OK. You don’t think a WR can ever be a position that rises up to mega bucks. Fair enough, you made your position known.

Don’t think most Vikings fans or the leadership or owners of the team agree. Can agree to disagree.
 


Gophers_4life said:
OK. You don’t think a WR can ever be a position that rises up to mega bucks. Fair enough, you made your position known.

Don’t think most Vikings fans or the leadership or owners of the team agree. Can agree to disagree.
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Yep. I asked a question way back on this thread, and you respectfully answered and engaged me in an excellent discussion on the topic. Thanks!
 

Gophers_4life said:
True. I mean even if we had Kirk for $20M a year that’s something.

Don’t think there are ever going to be many Stafford Cousins guys at $20M “just get me outta here” situations to give it a shot. More hope in the draft route.
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Probably true, and for what it's worth I think that's exactly the approach the Vikings will take.
 

RememberMurray said:
No, that's not what I'm saying.

You and I agreed that the only goal that matters is winning The Big One.

You said the best way to achieve that is to dump Cousins and pay JJ.

I say making JJ the highest-paid player on the team, dumping Cousins and starting over with a rookie QB seems questionable at best.

Remember: it's all about winning The Big One. Which position is more crucial to winning The Big One: QB or WR?
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RememberMurray said:
It looks like the Vikings are going to stand pat for 2023 with Cousins. I think that is wise. It also looks like they may be moving on from Cousins in 2024. That's where it will get interesting. While you must eventually find the QB of the future, are you willing to risk possible struggles in the short-term in order to develop a young guy? I suppose they pretty much have to do that.

Which leaves the question of JJ. If you sign a WR to a mega-contract, does it make sense to do so with the knowledge that the QB throwing to your highly-paid WR will be learning as he goes?
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Well, what about someone like Derek Carr or Lamar Jackson? There appears to be more movement for veteran QBs now than previously and I think assuming that it will definitely be a rookie QB is assuming too much.

JJ is a unicorn and I see his career arc, as much more Jerry Rice, rather than Cooper Cuff or Michael Thomas, barring injury. These are the other WRs to win the award which started in 1972. Three of the last 4 winners have been WRs, which speaks to the game’s evolution. You sign JJ IMO and figure out the QB as you go along this year - that’s there J O B.

en.m.wikipedia.org

Associated Press NFL Offensive Player of the Year Award - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
 

Gopher_In_NYC said:
Well, what about someone like Derek Carr or Lamar Jackson? There appears to be more movement for veteran QBs now than previously and I think assuming that it will definitely be a rookie QB is assuming too much.

JJ is a unicorn and I see his career arc, as much more Jerry Rice, rather than Cooper Cuff or Michael Thomas, barring injury. These are the other WRs to win the award which started in 1972. Three of the last 4 winners have been WRs, which speaks to the game’s evolution. You sign JJ IMO and figure out the QB as you go along this year - that’s there J O B.

en.m.wikipedia.org

Associated Press NFL Offensive Player of the Year Award - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
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I can see what you're saying. But if I decide to make a WR the pivotal player on my team, I had better consider the simple fact that my star playmaker can't make plays if my QB isn't up to the task of getting him the ball, and my QB won't be able to get my star playmaker the ball if my QB isn't protected really, really well. So I'm going to need some stud offensive linemen, and they'll need to get paid... probably pretty well. Also, my offensive coaching staff will need to design an offense that runs through my star playmaker, and I'd better hope that those guys don't get too predictable with that star WR-centered offense, seeing as how everybody and their brother knows that my star WR is the center of my team's universe. If I do get too predictable, my star playmaker is going to get hammered, over and over.

At least, that's how I think it might go. I could easily be wrong.
 

RememberMurray said:
I can see what you're saying. But if I decide to make a WR the pivotal player on my team, I had better consider the simple fact that my star playmaker can't make plays if my QB isn't up to the task of getting him the ball, and my QB won't be able to get my star playmaker the ball if my QB isn't protected really, really well. So I'm going to need some stud offensive linemen, and they'll need to get paid... probably pretty well. Also, my offensive coaching staff will need to design an offense that runs through my star playmaker, and I'd better hope that those guys don't get too predictable with that star WR-centered offense, seeing as how everybody and their brother knows that my star WR is the center of my team's universe. If I do get too predictable, my star playmaker is going to get hammered, over and over.

At least, that's how I think it might go. I could easily be wrong.
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It’s a calculated risk, but JJ’s that Dude and Cousins ain’t IMO - so you build out from Dude Foundation you have iMO.
 


RememberMurray said:
That's one way to go. And as I said, I love JJ.

But if I'm a GM, running a team, I don't like committing myself to a gigantic contract for a WR. I would never do it for a running back, either, not matter how great he is. To me, the top three positions on an NFL team are QB, blindside tackle, rush end. Not WR.
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Maybe in theory. But there's a bird in the hand here. There's no other player the Vikings currently have that they will have to jettison or could theoretically get at the moment that is equal to JJ's talent. Hunter is starting to be past his prime and not a great fit for a 3-4. Darrisaw is good, but won't require anything close to what JJ would require. They've clearly decided keeping Cousins at $35-40 million long-term is not the plan. So giving JJ a long-term deal at $25-30 million/year makes sense.
 

Gopher_In_NYC said:
It’s a calculated risk, but JJ’s that Dude and Cousins ain’t IMO - so you build out from Dude Foundation you have iMO.
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You're comfortable with a situation in which JJ is "That Dude", and the QB getting JJ the ball is not "That Dude", but just some guy? Or are you hoping for two "That Dudes", with JJ as "That Dude One" and your new QB as "That Dude Two"?
 

howeda7 said:
Maybe in theory. But there's a bird in the hand here. There's no other player the Vikings currently have that they will have to jettison or could theoretically get at the moment that is equal to JJ's talent. Hunter is starting to be past his prime and not a great fit for a 3-4. Darrisaw is good, but won't require anything close to what JJ would require. They've clearly decided keeping Cousins at $35-40 million long-term is not the plan. So giving JJ a long-term deal at $25-30 million/year makes sense.
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You are saying, in so many words, that this entire team needs to be rebuilt. I agree wholeheartedly.

You could start that rebuild with one extremely expensive keystone (JJ, who happens to be a WR) and build on that. If you did it that way, it would likely be slow and tedious, and during that process you'd be watching JJ's prime years passing by while he was playing for a team slowly ascending the ladder.

The other way to do it is build from scratch. Trade JJ for more draft picks. That's the route I'd take, assuming he'd have as much trade value as I think he does. You can acquire more of the cheaper young players you so desperately need.

Just my opinion, but that's the route I'd take. If JJ was a young stud QB rather than a WR, I'd see it differently.
 

RememberMurray said:
You're comfortable with a situation in which JJ is "That Dude", and the QB getting JJ the ball is not "That Dude", but just some guy? Or are you hoping for two "That Dudes", with JJ as "That Dude One" and your new QB as "That Dude Two"?
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You play the hand 🖐️ you have. JJ is your ace in the hole.

You don’t know if a drafted QB is the Dude or not - see Zach Wilson, Sam Darnold, Baker Mayfield, Mitch Tribusky etc..,all top ten picks all IIRC, who aren’t Dudes.

His post below is my thought process- you may disagree , which if cool, but that’s where I’m coming from. If nothing else the oof season is exciting- I love the chess aspect of it.

howeda7 said:
Maybe in theory. But there's a bird in the hand here. There's no other player the Vikings currently have that they will have to jettison or could theoretically get at the moment that is equal to JJ's talent. Hunter is starting to be past his prime and not a great fit for a 3-4. Darrisaw is good, but won't require anything close to what JJ would require. They've clearly decided keeping Cousins at $35-40 million long-term is not the plan. So giving JJ a long-term deal at $25-30 million/year makes sense.
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