Replacing Morgan is not going to make things better

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hello-world

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Gophers offense is going to struggle under Sanford no matter who plays under center. He has a track record of making draft prospect QBs worse and running great offenses into the ground.

Tanner Morgan (Minnesota)
2019 (pre-Sanford): 178.7 RTG; 30:7 TD:INT
2020 (Sanford): 128.1 RTG; 7:5 TD:INT
2021 (Sanford): 124.0 RTG; 3:2 TD:INT

Jordan Love (Utah State)
2018 (pre-Sanford): 158.3 RTG; 32:6 TD: INT (<- current NFL QB stats before Sanford)
2019 (Sanford): 129.1 RTG; 20:17 TD:INT (<- current NFL QB stats w/ Sanford)

Mike White (WKU)
2016 (pre-Sanford): 181.4 RTG; 37:7 TD:INT
2017 (Sanford): 140.8 RTG: 26:8 TD:INT
- Graduated -

2018 WKU Team QB Stats (they used 3 starters):
118.8 RTG; 15:10 TD:INT

He did okay with Kizer at Notre Dame (2014 - 2015) and has put together an awful track record since. I didn't understand this hire, and I think the results spoke for themselves.
 



GopherWeatherGuy said:
I agree that Sanford is a problem, but Morgan was way off the mark on a lot of throws yesterday, even when he had time to throw.

This was the case in the 2nd half against Miami too, then they just stopped running pass plays.
Click to expand...
- Sanford is also the QB coach
- Morgan's form and anticipation have fallen off the rails since 2019

Those two things are connected. They won't get better with another player under center. Ripping out a third / fourth year starter is not the way to fix this problem. Morgan had a 66% completion percentage as a sophomore, then Minnesota hired this guy.
 

hello-world said:
- Sanford is also the QB coach
- Morgan's form and anticipation have fallen off the rails since 2019

Those two things are connected. They won't get better with another player under center. Ripping out a third / fourth year starter is not the way to fix this problem. Morgan had a 66% completion percentage as a sophomore, then Minnesota hired this guy.
Click to expand...

If you are actually watching the game, he's missing throws he used to make. It had nothing to do with form and anticipation. Sanford is not the one missing 10 yard passes by 5 yards. You have no idea that the backup can't do better.

Much like Love at Utah St, Morgan has lost some pretty good WRs. That might have something to do with the decline in numbers as well.
 


GopherWeatherGuy said:
I agree that Sanford is a problem, but Morgan was way off the mark on a lot of throws yesterday, even when he had time to throw.

This was the case in the 2nd half against Miami too, then they just stopped running pass plays.
Click to expand...
Love Tanner but his stance and orientation make him susceptible to blind side sacks when containment fails.

Often the sacks he does get are full-fledged slams to the ground...which is what QBs must endure with the position...

Yesterday he lost all confidence in the OL due to BG's stunts. Big Dan did not help things yesterday either.

The latter is correctible. Tanner's stance and presence as a passer are probably set.
 


BleedGopher said:
Good research, thanks for putting this together.

It's hard to refute the numbers. Coach Fleck gets paid the big bucks to make tough decisions, and we are at an inflection point where a tough decision be it at QB or OC needs to be made.

Go Gophers!!
Click to expand...
On KFAN just now for Viking pregame they brought up that PJ needs to have a buffet of a tough conversation with Sanford. They also said the game yesterday is not even worth talking about because it was such an embarrassment.

I honestly don’t like how PJ handled yesterday’s press conference. For me the sparkle of 2019 is now gone.

a lot of media has also been harsh about PJ being a really bad game manager.

And the record of 0-17 when trailing at the half is BAD.

how long does 2019 make the fans still fans of Fleck. Unless he drastically turns this season around, and there is still a lot of season left, with this level of talent on this team, could PJ find himself in the hot seat next year?
Remove the 2019 record and his overall body of work might not be very impressive here.
I love PJ, but this is a business and it’s not about what he did in 2019, it’s what he’s doing with this Uber talented squad this year
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
If you are actually watching the game, he's missing throws he used to make. It had nothing to do with form and anticipation. Sanford is not the one missing 10 yard passes by 5 yards. You have no idea that the backup can't do better.

Much like Love at Utah St, Morgan has lost some pretty good WRs. That might have something to do with the decline in numbers as well.
Click to expand...
He's missing throws because his form has gone to shit. He's standing vertical, has happy feet, isn't keeping his eyes downfield, doesn't step up into the pocket, and when he does try to step up, he's not planting his feet before throwing. He has gotten worse because his fundamentals have gotten worse. That's not ability, that's coaching.

He didn't peak athletically at 19 years old. He has a bad coach. The other players on the roster will also have a bad coach, because they all have the same coach.

Just as importantly, KC had installed screens and read options that took pressure off the offensive line in obvious passing situations. If those are still in the playbook, Minnesota isn't using them. This is all on Sanford.

Morgan is very likely the best QB Minnesota has ever had. Starting a rotation is going to kill this offense. Two QBs = No QBs.
 



SanDiegoGopherFan said:
On KFAN just now for Viking pregame they brought up that PJ needs to have a buffet of a tough conversation with Sanford. They also said the game yesterday is not even worth talking about because it was such an embarrassment.

I honestly don’t like how PJ handled yesterday’s press conference. For me the sparkle of 2019 is now gone.

a lot of media has also been harsh about PJ being a really bad game manager.

And the record of 0-17 when trailing at the half is BAD.

how long does 2019 make the fans still fans of Fleck. Unless he drastically turns this season around, and there is still a lot of season left, with this level of talent on this team, could PJ find himself in the hot seat next year?
Remove the 2019 record and his overall body of work might not be very impressive here.
I love PJ, but this is a business and it’s not about what he did in 2019, it’s what he’s doing with this Uber talented squad this year
Click to expand...

what a dumb statement your bolded part is. 2019 was amazing, it's part of his body of work. it doesn't give him a lifetime pass but only doogie and you would remove a good season to prove a point. remove 87/91 from tom kelly's body of work and he isn't a world series winning manager.
 

hello-world said:
Gophers offense is going to struggle under Sanford no matter who plays under center. He has a track record of making draft prospect QBs worse and running great offenses into the ground.

Tanner Morgan (Minnesota)
2019 (pre-Sanford): 178.7 RTG; 30:7 TD:INT
2020 (Sanford): 128.1 RTG; 7:5 TD:INT
2021 (Sanford): 124.0 RTG; 3:2 TD:INT

Jordan Love (Utah State)
2018 (pre-Sanford): 158.3 RTG; 32:6 TD: INT (<- current NFL QB stats before Sanford)
2019 (Sanford): 129.1 RTG; 20:17 TD:INT (<- current NFL QB stats w/ Sanford)

Mike White (WKU)
2016 (pre-Sanford): 181.4 RTG; 37:7 TD:INT
2017 (Sanford): 140.8 RTG: 26:8 TD:INT
- Graduated -

2018 WKU Team QB Stats (they used 3 starters):
118.8 RTG; 15:10 TD:INT

He did okay with Kizer at Notre Dame (2014 - 2015) and has put together an awful track record since. I didn't understand this hire, and I think the results spoke for themselves.
Click to expand...
are you implying that our offense is junk?

1632680973608.png

Maybe he's available -

1632681013040.png
 


GopherWeatherGuy said:
If you are actually watching the game, he's missing throws he used to make. It had nothing to do with form and anticipation. Sanford is not the one missing 10 yard passes by 5 yards. You have no idea that the backup can't do better.

Much like Love at Utah St, Morgan has lost some pretty good WRs. That might have something to do with the decline in numbers as well.
Click to expand...
It's awfully ironic that every QB he's coached has regressed under him. Yes the WR's can be a factor but for every single QB? I do also think Morgan just isn't the same no matter what, totally on him for missing the easy passes. I'll give them both the next game but I'm not holding my breath at all. Nothing hurts to make a change and put a spark in the offense. Why not go back to Simon playcalling like he did against Auburn?
 



Morgan has not been the same since the 2019 season. Not sure what is wrong, but something is off.
 

BleedGopher said:
Good research, thanks for putting this together.

It's hard to refute the numbers. Coach Fleck gets paid the big bucks to make tough decisions, and we are at an inflection point where a tough decision be it at QB or OC needs to be made.

Go Gophers!!
Click to expand...
Yeah but .... the numbers in the OP, other than Tanner's of course, were available to Fleck before he made the hire. And he still brushed them off in order to hire his buddy.

I truly don't know what the connection is between them, but we've seen the picture of them together at one of their houses when leck was at WMU and Sanford was at Notre Dame. Somehow, they knew each other. Maybe their wives were friends, who knows.


So I don't trust PJ to do the right thing here. At least not this season.
 

gopherfan007 said:
It's awfully ironic that every QB he's coached has regressed under him. Yes the WR's can be a factor but for every single QB? I do also think Morgan just isn't the same no matter what, totally on him for missing the easy passes. I'll give them both the next game but I'm not holding my breath at all. Nothing hurts to make a change and put a spark in the offense. Why not go back to Simon playcalling like he did against Auburn?
Click to expand...
Sanford Jr was 9-16 at WKU.

He is not a dynamic detail-oriented coach like Ciarrocca. KC studied game films tirelessly, is a good game analyzer, a good QB coach, and has an offensive mind. The Gopher's RPO was difficult for most teams.

It has died in the hands of Sanford Jr. 💀👻 Happy Halloween!
 
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Go4 said:
what a dumb statement your bolded part is. 2019 was amazing, it's part of his body of work. it doesn't give him a lifetime pass but only doogie and you would remove a good season to prove a point. remove 87/91 from tom kelly's body of work and he isn't a world series winning manager.
Click to expand...
If you’re comparing a World Series championship team to a team that beat auburn in a bowl game you should probably enroll in a special class. Just sayin
 

Go4 said:
what a dumb statement your bolded part is. 2019 was amazing, it's part of his body of work. it doesn't give him a lifetime pass but only doogie and you would remove a good season to prove a point. remove 87/91 from tom kelly's body of work and he isn't a world series winning manager.
Click to expand...
Amazing might be a bit of an overstatement. They did not get to Pasadena. They didn't even get to Indy. No Axe. No Floyd. They won the Outback Bowl. Their two biggest rivals expect to at least get to that tier of bowl every year.
 

hungan1 said:
Sanforf Jr was 9-16 at WKU.

He is not a dynamic detail-oriented coach like Ciarrocca, KC studied game films tirelessly, is a good game analyzer, a good QB coach, and has an offensive mind. The Gopher's RPO was difficult for most teams.

It has died in the hands of Sanford Jr. 💀👻 Happy Halloween!
Click to expand...
KC is now only an offensive analyst for West Virginia...Maybe he's looking for something better??? I'd take him back in a heartbeat!
 

GoldGoldGold said:
KC is now only an offensive analyst for West Virginia...Maybe he's looking for something better??? I'd take him back in a heartbeat!
Click to expand...
Bring him back. Give him unlimited access to fly to and from home. His family lives close to PSU. He wants to be near them. He needs to finish mentoring Simon.
 
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hello-world said:
Gophers offense is going to struggle under Sanford no matter who plays under center. He has a track record of making draft prospect QBs worse and running great offenses into the ground.

Tanner Morgan (Minnesota)
2019 (pre-Sanford): 178.7 RTG; 30:7 TD:INT
2020 (Sanford): 128.1 RTG; 7:5 TD:INT
2021 (Sanford): 124.0 RTG; 3:2 TD:INT

Jordan Love (Utah State)
2018 (pre-Sanford): 158.3 RTG; 32:6 TD: INT (<- current NFL QB stats before Sanford)
2019 (Sanford): 129.1 RTG; 20:17 TD:INT (<- current NFL QB stats w/ Sanford)

Mike White (WKU)
2016 (pre-Sanford): 181.4 RTG; 37:7 TD:INT
2017 (Sanford): 140.8 RTG: 26:8 TD:INT
- Graduated -

2018 WKU Team QB Stats (they used 3 starters):
118.8 RTG; 15:10 TD:INT

He did okay with Kizer at Notre Dame (2014 - 2015) and has put together an awful track record since. I didn't understand this hire, and I think the results spoke for themselves.
Click to expand...
Nice post. Boy. Those numbers do tell a true story. Extremely bad hire. Fleck needs to make a decision.
 


hello-world said:
Gophers offense is going to struggle under Sanford no matter who plays under center. He has a track record of making draft prospect QBs worse and running great offenses into the ground.

Tanner Morgan (Minnesota)
2019 (pre-Sanford): 178.7 RTG; 30:7 TD:INT
2020 (Sanford): 128.1 RTG; 7:5 TD:INT
2021 (Sanford): 124.0 RTG; 3:2 TD:INT

Jordan Love (Utah State)
2018 (pre-Sanford): 158.3 RTG; 32:6 TD: INT (<- current NFL QB stats before Sanford)
2019 (Sanford): 129.1 RTG; 20:17 TD:INT (<- current NFL QB stats w/ Sanford)

Mike White (WKU)
2016 (pre-Sanford): 181.4 RTG; 37:7 TD:INT
2017 (Sanford): 140.8 RTG: 26:8 TD:INT
- Graduated -

2018 WKU Team QB Stats (they used 3 starters):
118.8 RTG; 15:10 TD:INT

He did okay with Kizer at Notre Dame (2014 - 2015) and has put together an awful track record since. I didn't understand this hire, and I think the results spoke for themselves.
Click to expand...
Spoil rotten is what he did with TM and the RPO. Don't wait too long to make a move. This season is still salvageable.
 

I hated the Sanford hire from the beginning, but with COVID season, I gave him a pass, but his body of work up to now just proves he's not a good OC.

I am conflicted about Tanner. He is a top flight person, great locker room, and team guy, but something is off. I look at the Auburn game yesterday where they almost lost to a Georgia State team at home and their coach had the stones to pull Bo Nix, who is a Auburn legacy QB, who was struggling. Auburn won at the end, with some home cooking.

PJ says he has difficult conversations for breakfast, this may have to be one, Sanford is not it as an OC. You can't learn on the job at this level, and Tanner may need to sit and observe for a bit.
 

Yesterday:
Slow developing patterns
No counters to BG blitz
Poor protection
Predictable runs on first, second down. Runs on third and long at critical junctures.
Draining the clock late in the game down by 4
Not much help from his receivers

Tanner hasn’t displayed his 2019 accuracy in 2020 or 2021 but he shows glimpses. He has been put in bad positions by his coaches. Maybe he overachieved in 2019 but I don’t think so. He was putting balls into tiny windows, great anticipation. I’m not ready to give up on him yet. Not even close. I am ready to close the book on Mike Sanford Jr. The offense has been clunky since he arrived and shifted into reverse yesterday. Pull the plug PJ. The fans and team are slowly losing confidence. Continued struggles will hit recruiting as well. Do it now.
 

hello-world said:
He's missing throws because his form has gone to shit. He's standing vertical, has happy feet, isn't keeping his eyes downfield, doesn't step up into the pocket, and when he does try to step up, he's not planting his feet before throwing. He has gotten worse because his fundamentals have gotten worse. That's not ability, that's coaching.

He didn't peak athletically at 19 years old. He has a bad coach. The other players on the roster will also have a bad coach, because they all have the same coach.

Just as importantly, KC had installed screens and read options that took pressure off the offensive line in obvious passing situations. If those are still in the playbook, Minnesota isn't using them. This is all on Sanford.

Morgan is very likely the best QB Minnesota has ever had. Starting a rotation is going to kill this offense. Two QBs = No QBs.
Click to expand...

Happy feet doesn't have something to do with Faalele and Shlueter not blocking anyone yesterday? He did a lot of the same things you said in 2019 too. He's always had a problem staring down one WR.

With Autman-Bell being hurt most of this season, Morgan doesn't have any of his top WRs from 2019, you don't think that makes a difference?

Jordan Love lost his top 5 WRs from the 2018 to 2019 team, you don't think that made a difference?

Mike White's regression was much smaller. He had 10 less TDs, but his INTs, completion percentage, and yardage were all similar between 2016 and 2017. White also lost his 2 top WRs who totaled 3,000 yards between the two of them in 2016. You don't think that made a difference?

I don't like Sanford as an OC and would like to see him go, but to say this regression is only due to him is wrong when you look at other factors.

I share the fondness that everyone else does for Morgan's amazing 2019 season. But it was one season, he was surrounded by a ton of talent, and it's possible he's regressing to the mean. He has physical limitations, and there was a reason Annexstad beat him out when he was only a true freshman.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Happy feet doesn't have something to do with Faalele and Shlueter not blocking anyone yesterday? He did a lot of the same things you said in 2019 too. He's always had a problem staring down one WR.

With Autman-Bell being hurt most of this season, Morgan doesn't have any of his top WRs from 2019, you don't think that makes a difference?

Jordan Love lost his top 5 WRs from the 2018 to 2019 team, you don't think that made a difference?

Mike White's regression was much smaller. He had 10 less TDs, but his INTs, completion percentage, and yardage were all similar between 2016 and 2017. White also lost his 2 top WRs who totaled 3,000 yards between the two of them in 2016. You don't think that made a difference?

I don't like Sanford as an OC and would like to see him go, but to say this regression is only due to him is wrong when you look at other factors.

I share the fondness that everyone else does for Morgan's amazing 2019 season. But it was one season, he was surrounded by a ton of talent, and it's possible he's regressing to the mean. He has physical limitations, and there was a reason Annexstad beat him out when he was only a true freshman.
Click to expand...

Given there was only practice to compare TM and ZA that decision shouldn’t be given too much weight. TM immediately looked much better in game situations when ZA was hurt and the rest is history. We have zero evidence ZA would fare any better than an experienced senior who has been through the wars already. Sure, it’s possible but a change at QB shouldn’t be made lightly IMO. We’ll see what happens.
 

I think Morgan starts next game but I would assume Zack and maybe Jack get a lot of snaps in practice this week.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
Given there was only practice to compare TM and ZA that decision shouldn’t be given too much weight. TM immediately looked much better in game situations when ZA was hurt and the rest is history. We have zero evidence ZA would fare any better than an experienced senior who has been through the wars already. Sure, it’s possible but a change at QB shouldn’t be made lightly IMO. We’ll see what happens.
Click to expand...
So maybe get some evidence and give him the shot.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
Pull the plug PJ. The fans and team are slowly losing confidence. Continued struggles will hit recruiting as well. Do it now.
Click to expand...
Not gonna happen.

This game was, at best, like the Maryland loss in 2018. Robb Smith wasn't fired until five games (and four more losses) later.
 

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