Pitino and the state of the program

[bga1]

Were any of you guys posting on here even fans of the Gophers when Clem became coach? It seems that some important information is being missed in this post. Clem took over a program that was as bleak as it's ever been in Minnesota Gopher history. The year before we had to forfeit a Big 10 game and played another where 5 guys played all but 2 minutes of the game. Dutcher had resigned in the middle of the year and three players were dismissed from the team because of the scandal in Madison. Because of this, Clem's first two years we won a total of 6 games in the B1G. The team and program was gutted. In his 3rd coach at Minnesota, Clem got the team to the Sweet 16, losing to Duke is my memory serves me correctly. That year, the Big 10 was loaded, with Michigan, Indiana and Illinois all being top 10 teams, with Michigan winning the tournament, beating Illinois in the Final Four. That was in an era when the Big 10 was at it's peak as a top basketball conference. The next year the Gophers were within a basket of making the Final Four....losing to Georgia Tech 93-91. To try and compare the position Pitino has this team in to the place Clem had the team in after 5 years is one of the most laughable things I have seen on Gopherhole. I have no problem giving Pitino another year if we make the NCAA tournament, but don't compare the coaching job he has done to the coaching job Clem did at the beginning of his tenure at Minnesota.

This site didn't exist. But I was around and a season ticket holder. I remember it well. Clem took over a program in dire straits- no doubt about it. The advantage to that is that he was under no pressure to win right away and he got left a borderline great recruiting class by Dutcher (Newbern, Burton and Schick). Pitino took over the total opposite. Some pretty decent older players but zero young recruits. Therefore it was logical that Pitino's bottom out year was going to be year three when he had to bring in young kids to replace. So both Clem and Pitino had their 2-16 year to deal with but for different reasons and at different times. If I were a new coach in a position- I'd have preferred the situation Clem took over: start from scratch and build from the bottom. Pitino made the mistake of thinking he could win right away and he brought in transfers and took wild swings and 5 stars and missed. Youthful error and it cost him.

 

[golfing18now]

Like I said, you don't change coaches if the Gophers make the tournament this year. But if you hire the correct coach, we still have a good shot at the 2020 recruits from Minnesota. I can't prove it, but had the Gophers hired Flip or Hoiberg when they fired Tubby, I think we would have gotten at least two of the big four who were juniors at the time (Tyus, Macura, Travis and Vaughn). Pitino hasn't recruited Minnesota very well, that has been the problem. That said, if we somehow get Hurt, there is no way he is going anywhere.

This is simply not true. How many Minnesota players would you like on this team before you would say differently?

 

[Bad Gopher]

Pitino isn't a bad coach / program builder, nor is he a great coach. He's somewhere in between. If people want to realize the kind of success Wisconsin has had, Minnesota will have to continue to kiss frogs until they find a great coach. If the last 5+ years satisfies you, then you got what you want.

I agree with the opinions that comparing Richard and Clem at this point is their respective tenures is ludicrous, and bga should feel ashamed for that intellectual deception/dishonesty. We began with our Gopher season tickets because of Clem and the back-to-back Sweet Sixteen / Final Eight runs. We would never have signed aboard a ship that was drifting in and out of marginal success like the program is today. I'll never forget the excitement of those days in the 90s, even though it's been tainted by the cheating, and the reason I and my wife continue with our subscription is in the hope that the program will return to that level of success someday and we can feel those thrills again - obviously as part of a clean program, which the Badgers and many other schools comparable to ours have proven is possible.

 

[howeda7]

I like Pitino. But this is a put up or shut up year. So far, so good. The next 10 games will decide his fate. The status of the recruiting for next year is also a concern.

 

[MennoSota]

I like Pitino. But this is a put up or shut up year. So far, so good. The next 10 games will decide his fate. The status of the recruiting for next year is also a concern.

Pitino's not fat so the Snake can't fault him for that...

 

[PhillyGopher]

Like I said, you don't change coaches if the Gophers make the tournament this year. But if you hire the correct coach, we still have a good shot at the 2020 recruits from Minnesota. I can't prove it, but had the Gophers hired Flip or Hoiberg when they fired Tubby, I think we would have gotten at least two of the big four who were juniors at the time (Tyus, Macura, Travis and Vaughn). Pitino hasn't recruited Minnesota very well, that has been the problem. That said, if we somehow get Hurt, there is no way he is going anywhere.

I think this is a huge stretch

 

[salzie]

My biggest issue or concern with Pitino is the lack of consistency on offense. Every game, without fail, the Gophers fall into an offensive black hole for 5 or 6 minutes, where they look like they've never played or practiced together. when they get into these funks, almost every possession, they run the shot clock down and someone either throws up a bad 3-pt shot, or we get a kamikaze drive to the basket.

I assume they work on these things in practice - but it doesn't seem to show up on the court, and that perplexes me. Look, nobody's perfect. every team is going to have bad possessions. But the Gophers just seem to have more of them, and they still crap their pants against a zone more often than not.

maybe the players are just as dumb as a rock. But some of that is on the coaches, too - because whatever they're doing in practice doesn't seem to translate to the game.

That's relatively common in a lot of college basketball

 

[fryguy22]

This is simply not true. How many Minnesota players would you like on this team before you would say differently?

Thank you! He's gotten every relevant high major MN player in 2015, 2016, and 2018*. That's three of the five years (2017 and 2019 being the "bad" ones, we could get into why those happened but it's not worth rehashing for the billionth time) where he's absolutely cleaned up on in-state recruiting.


**except Tre Jones who followed his older brother to the place where he won a natty, making it basically an impossible get.

 

[salzie]

Pitino isn't a bad coach / program builder, nor is he a great coach. He's somewhere in between. If people want to realize the kind of success Wisconsin has had, Minnesota will have to continue to kiss frogs until they find a great coach. If the last 5+ years satisfies you, then you got what you want.

I agree with the opinions that comparing Richard and Clem at this point is their respective tenures is ludicrous, and bga should feel ashamed for that intellectual deception/dishonesty. We began with our Gopher season tickets because of Clem and the back-to-back Sweet Sixteen / Final Eight runs. We would never have signed aboard a ship that was drifting in and out of marginal success like the program is today. I'll never forget the excitement of those days in the 90s, even though it's been tainted by the cheating, and the reason I and my wife continue with our subscription is in the hope that the program will return to that level of success someday and we can feel those thrills again - obviously as part of a clean program, which the Badgers and many other schools comparable to ours have proven is possible.

I don't think changing coaches every few years is the path either


I realize you can't stick with a guy just for continuity, but program restart will only lead to more program restarts

 

[Bad Gopher]

I don't think changing coaches every few years is the path either


I realize you can't stick with a guy just for continuity, but program restart will only lead to more program restarts

You go with "irrational fear of the unknown" and I'll go with "keep trying," and we'll compare outcomes after a period of time. That goes for any undertaking or enterprise.

 

[ethomasp31]

This site didn't exist. But I was around and a season ticket holder. I remember it well. Clem took over a program in dire straits- no doubt about it. The advantage to that is that he was under no pressure to win right away and he got left a borderline great recruiting class by Dutcher (Newbern, Burton and Schick). Pitino took over the total opposite. Some pretty decent older players but zero young recruits. Therefore it was logical that Pitino's bottom out year was going to be year three when he had to bring in young kids to replace. So both Clem and Pitino had their 2-16 year to deal with but for different reasons and at different times. If I were a new coach in a position- I'd have preferred the situation Clem took over: start from scratch and build from the bottom. Pitino made the mistake of thinking he could win right away and he brought in transfers and took wild swings and 5 stars and missed. Youthful error and it cost him.

Clem took over at a time when the conference that was way better than the B1G is now. I was at Luther College at the time and all we did was watch and play basketball, especially in January. Iowa had Marble, Horton, BJ Armstrong, Bullard, Lohous and many others. Indiana won the NCAA's with Alford and later had Cheaney and Damon Bailey. Illinois was loaded, Michigan had Glenn Rice and a little later the Fab 5. The conference wasn't watered down with Nebraska, Penn State and Rutgers. It was the Golden Era of the conference for basketball. Actually, it was still when college basketball was in it's Golden Era. The Barn was rocking when Clem was here! It was the best ticket in town! I remember sitting under a staircase with my back to the hockey arena, driving up from Decorah in the middle of the week, barely able to see the floor, but I was at a Gopher basketball game. Pitino has accomplished nothing compared to what Clem accomplished in his first five years in the program. Like i have said, i don't think he will be fired after this season, and I don't think he should be fired if we make the tournament. But Clem brought excitement to the Barn, and what Pitino and Clem did their first five years isn't even in the same ballpark.

 

[GuyFawkes]

Like I said, you don't change coaches if the Gophers make the tournament this year. But if you hire the correct coach, we still have a good shot at the 2020 recruits from Minnesota. I can't prove it, but had the Gophers hired Flip or Hoiberg when they fired Tubby, I think we would have gotten at least two of the big four who were juniors at the time (Tyus, Macura, Travis and Vaughn). Pitino hasn't recruited Minnesota very well, that has been the problem. That said, if we somehow get Hurt, there is no way he is going anywhere.

Tyus was never going to come here regardless of coach. Travis was more likely to come here after the pitino hiring, but pitino simply didn't have enough time. Macura never wanted to be a gopher, he wanted a badger offer which he never got(Badgers Lakeville North pipeline is strong, big booster in that community), and i believe Vaughn would have been a gopher had the coaching change never happened, he had a very good relationship with that staff, and had Rodney in his ear about committing to that staff.

 

[ethomasp31]

I think this is a huge stretch

I don't....I thought we had Travis the way it is....and if we had gotten Hoiberg i think there would have been a good chance we would have gotten Macura and possibly even Tyus.

 

[GophersInIowa]

I don't....I thought we had Travis the way it is....and if we had gotten Hoiberg i think there would have been a good chance we would have gotten Macura and possibly even Tyus.

Maybe but it's impossible to know.

My biggest problem with the teams under Pitino is the lack of consistently. One game they look like they could beat just about anyone and then the next they look like they'd rather be doing just about anything other than playing basketball. Having bad games is going to happen but looking disinterested, unorganized, etc. shouldn't happen. The team is talented, if they're more consistent they can win a lot of games.

 

[Lakers612]

Maybe but it's impossible to know.

My biggest problem with the teams under Pitino is the lack of consistently. One game they look like they could beat just about anyone and then the next they look like they'd rather be doing just about anything other than playing basketball. Having bad games is going to happen but looking disinterested, unorganized, etc. shouldn't happen. The team is talented, if they're more consistent they can win a lot of games.

Almost every college basketball fanbase says this. When this program hasn't dealt with suspensions or mass injuries, we are consistently a top 40 program. That's pretty good in my opinion. If the Gophers can have back to back good seasons, I think Pitino can establish a perennial top 25 program

 

[ethomasp31]

Tyus was never going to come here regardless of coach. Travis was more likely to come here after the pitino hiring, but pitino simply didn't have enough time. Macura never wanted to be a gopher, he wanted a badger offer(canother Lakeville north wanting to be a badger), and i believe Vaughn would have been a gopher had the coaching change never happened, he had a very good relationship with that staff, and had Rodney in his ear about committing to that staff.

We had a year....he was from the Twin Cities....Flip or Hoiberg would have made a difference. I think Tyus was in play as well. I find it funny that the same people who are saying you can't fire Pitino because of the great 2020 class, wanted to get rid of Tubby even with the great 2014 class. I think Macura wanted to be wanted, and treated like they really wanted.

There had been zero Lakeville North guys going to Wisconsin before Reuvers. Tyler Wahl is only the second one. Greg Gard was in Rochester watching the Lakeville North/John Marshall game when Reuvers was a junior.

Minnesotans we missed since Pitino has been here (off the top of my head):

Tyus
Vaughn
Travis
Macura
Sims
John
Wright
Davison
Reuvers
Trent
Tre Jones
Nnaji
Terry
and probably Hurt

That's a lot of good players in 5 or 6 years.

 

[ethomasp31]

This is simply not true. How many Minnesota players would you like on this team before you would say differently?

I'd like more of the best ones. Some are listed in the post above.

 

[tikited]

Clem took over at a time when the conference that was way better than the B1G is now. .

I'm not commenting on Clem v. Pitino-just agreeing with this statement. The conference is no where as talented as it was back in Clems day. Same could be said about the whole NCAA/country.

 

[60's Guy]

Pitino is a good coach. Making the tournament or not I'd like to see another season.
The issues have been the roster decisions....way too many to list them all. Maybe the new assistants can provide better support in this regard. Willing to wait and see another year.
The two transfers, the three current freshmen, and incoming recruit all seem like a nice foundation going forward. (And IW has been excellent the last couple games) How we do with the 2020 guys is the make or break mark...doesn't necessarily need to be Minnesota kids for me only if whoever comes is better and is eligible to play.

 

[cjbfbp]

I realize you can't stick with a guy just for continuity, but program restart will only lead to more program restarts

I think your sense of causality is a bit off. Program restarts are not caused by previous program restarts. They are caused by coaches who 1) retire, 2) take other positions, or 3) are fired because of unsatisfactory results.

Wisconsin had a program restart when they hired Bo Ryan. Then they had another program restart when he retired (although not that much because a protege was hired). In between those restarts were about 18 successful years.

 

[ethomasp31]

I'm not commenting on Clem v. Pitino-just agreeing with this statement. The conference is no where as talented as it was back in Clems day. Same could be said about the whole NCAA/country.

Well when was the last time a B1G won the NCAA Tournament? Players were staying longer then, so you had a bigger connection to teams. Think of the great Duke teams with Laettner, Hurley and Hill, that UNLV team, Danny Manning, even the Fab 5. The one and done's have killed college basketball, or at least damaged it greatly. Like I said it was the Golden Age of college basketball. I remember when we first got cable tv, and we were able to watch the Big East Conference. Think of all those great teams!! I remember driving down to Arizona and listening to the NCAA tournament. Dean Smith had Carolina in the four corner offense running out the clock.

I also could swear the Gophers beat North Carolina back in the early 80's. I thought it was a USC Tournament....but they had Al Wood, I think Perkins and others....

It must have been the Cookie Holmes, Trent Tucker, Darryl Mitchell team.

 

[Minnesconsin fan]

Like I said, you don't change coaches if the Gophers make the tournament this year. But if you hire the correct coach, we still have a good shot at the 2020 recruits from Minnesota. I can't prove it, but had the Gophers hired Flip or Hoiberg when they fired Tubby, I think we would have gotten at least two of the big four who were juniors at the time (Tyus, Macura, Travis and Vaughn). Pitino hasn't recruited Minnesota very well, that has been the problem. That said, if we somehow get Hurt, there is no way he is going anywhere.

three starters are from MN-- not many Power 5 programs have 3 in-state kids starting (just a guess)

Michael Hurt was Mr. Basketball MN runner-up
Jarvis Johnson was a big-time get for Pitino at the time
Jarvis Omersa will be good

a couple of his misses have turned out pretty well-- Illikanin turned him down, we end up with Jordan Murphy, I think Jarvis Johnson's scholarship turned into Eric Curry. Tum Tum Nairn passed, we end up with Nate Mason.
The big 4 from 2014 wasn't realistic- maybe could have gotten Macura if he would have gone after him hard, the other 3 were pretty well set.
Tre Jones has been a Duke fan since long before Tyus went there.
Gary Trent Jr and Rashad Vaugh only had the NBA in mind- not sure how we would react to one & dones- would like to try it with Matthew Hurt though
McKinley Wright had an offer sitting on the table for months- didn't want it. David Roddy in the same category.

a couple of the misses have been glaring though, but that comes with being young and desperate -- BK & Gas funneled our way through the Greece trip, Dorsey was trouble before school began, the kid from Maryland didn't know what a gift he had been given, Josh Martin was just a miss

 

[GuyFawkes]

We had a year....he was from the Twin Cities....Flip or Hoiberg would have made a difference. I think Tyus was in play as well. I find it funny that the same people who are saying you can't fire Pitino because of the great 2020 class, wanted to get rid of Tubby even with the great 2014 class. I think Macura wanted to be wanted, and treated like they really wanted.

There had been zero Lakeville North guys going to Wisconsin before Reuvers. Tyler Wahl is only the second one. Greg Gard was in Rochester watching the Lakeville North/John Marshall game when Reuvers was a junior.

Minnesotans we missed since Pitino has been here (off the top of my head):

Tyus
Vaughn
Travis
Macura
Sims
John
Wright
Davison
Reuvers
Trent
Tre Jones
Nnaji
Terry
and probably Hurt

That's a lot of good players in 5 or 6 years.

I'm not stating opinions to you, I'm telling you what happened. Macura wanted a badger offer never got it. Tyus was playing with okafor at the next level and okafor had no interest in Minnesota regardless of coach. Vaughn was extremely close with an assistant on the tubby staff who's name escapes me, but that dream ended when staff was let go. Travis from what I heard at the time wanted to commit to Minnesota but his parents wanted him to go to Stanford, and he ultimately caved to their wishes.

Also hoiberg was never leaving ISU to come here and likely will be getting into NBA front office next year and if not will have Bluebloods(UCLA) after him. Flip had little interest in coaching college basketball.

 

[Gopherbbdude]

With the recruiting class being what it is for the 2020 class locally, it would be idiotic to have a coaching change right now. I don't know how successful pitino will be in recruiting this class(I've personally heard encouraging things), but I know there is essentially no chance a new coach will be able to build relationship in the short of amount of time left to get any off these guys. Speaking of which it would be nice to open up 1 or 2 more scholarships for that class.

This!!

I would not be surprised if we bagged a Scholly this year for 2020 recruiting class

 

[builtbadgers]

I think your sense of causality is a bit off. Program restarts are not caused by previous program restarts. They are caused by coaches who 1) retire, 2) take other positions, or 3) are fired because of unsatisfactory results.

Wisconsin had a program restart when they hired Bo Ryan. Then they had another program restart when he retired (although not that much because a protege was hired). In between those restarts were about 18 successful years.

Hardly a restart with Bo, the previous regime went to the tourney the year before and left behind Mike Wilkinson, Kirk Penney, Tony Bennett on hand who landed Devin Harris and Alando Tucker for Bo to win the the conference in year one ! The second was fairly severe because of the uncertainty of Ryan which left a upperclass void felt last year anf this year in very shallow classes. One off year and Gard is rolling now with a pretty special team.

 

[UpAndUnder43]

Hardly a restart with Bo, the previous regime went to the tourney the year before and left behind Mike Wilkinson, Kirk Penney, Tony Bennett on hand who landed Devin Harris and Alando Tucker for Bo to win the the conference in year one ! The second was fairly severe because of the uncertainty of Ryan which left a upperclass void felt last year anf this year in very shallow classes. One off year and Gard is rolling now with a pretty special team.

Gard has a "pretty special team" (I strongly disagree with this, but whatever), but the Gophers beat them in Madison, and we hate the Gophers team. Think about that.

 

[Gopherbbdude]

We had a year....he was from the Twin Cities....Flip or Hoiberg would have made a difference. I think Tyus was in play as well. I find it funny that the same people who are saying you can't fire Pitino because of the great 2020 class, wanted to get rid of Tubby even with the great 2014 class. I think Macura wanted to be wanted, and treated like they really wanted.

There had been zero Lakeville North guys going to Wisconsin before Reuvers. Tyler Wahl is only the second one. Greg Gard was in Rochester watching the Lakeville North/John Marshall game when Reuvers was a junior.

Minnesotans we missed since Pitino has been here (off the top of my head):

Tyus
Vaughn
Travis
Macura
Sims
John
Wright
Davison
Reuvers
Trent
Tre Jones
Nnaji
Terry
and probably Hurt

That's a lot of good players in 5 or 6 years.

it seems your glass is half empty. What about the ones we got?

Jarvis
Hurt
Oturo
Omersa
Gabe
Amir


Amir was MN Mr. Basketball and Hurt and Jarvis were runners up....(could be wrong). We have no idea which ones the staff was actually after, just because they are good and from MN does not mean they made a lot of effort to recruit them.

1 year is not even close to enough time to recruit these kids now days.... Not even 2 years in most cases

 

[dpodoll68]

Hardly a restart with Bo, the previous regime went to the tourney the year before and left behind Mike Wilkinson, Kirk Penney, Tony Bennett on hand who landed Devin Harris and Alando Tucker for Bo to win the the conference in year one ! The second was fairly severe because of the uncertainty of Ryan which left a upperclass void felt last year anf this year in very shallow classes. One off year and Gard is rolling now with a pretty special team.

That's exactly his point. Gopher fans post here incessantly complaining about "hiring a new coach every few years," and assuming that all restarts are bad. They falsely assume this because every Gophers coach hired in the last 20 years has been mediocre-to-poor. Restarts are just fine, and even encouraged, when you're replacing one good coach with another one.

 

[UpAndUnder43]

That's exactly his point. Gopher fans post here incessantly complaining about "hiring a new coach every few years," and assuming that all restarts are bad. They falsely assume this because every Gophers coach hired in the last 20 years has been mediocre-to-poor. Restarts are just fine, and even encouraged, when you're replacing one good coach with another one.

The biggest issue with the restarts has been the generally bad programs they are taking over. If Pitino is here for another decade and decides to move on, leaving a solid program, with good players in place then the next coach will most likely be a "better" coach. If he leaves a program void of talent, as others have done, the restart has a higher likelihood of failure. Ryan took over a successful program. So did Gard. Makes it much much easier.

 

[Costa Rican Gopher]

I'm not stating opinions to you, I'm telling you what happened. Macura wanted a badger offer never got it. Tyus was playing with okafor at the next level and okafor had no interest in Minnesota regardless of coach. Vaughn was extremely close with an assistant on the tubby staff who's name escapes me, but that dream ended when staff was let go. Travis from what I heard at the time wanted to commit to Minnesota but his parents wanted him to go to Stanford, and he ultimately caved to their wishes.

Also hoiberg was never leaving ISU to come here and likely will be getting into NBA front office next year and if not will have Bluebloods(UCLA) after him. Flip had little interest in coaching college basketball.

Imo, the Vaughn dream ended when his handler moved him to Nevada, to play for Findlay Prep. We had a chance with Vaughn, but his handler/agent/coach/whatever wanted something bigger, something that would look good on his resume when he tried to rope in the next HS kid.