Why Is Everyone So Excited?

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The list of super successful P5 coaches who got their starts coaching in the MAC is VERY VERY VERY LONG.
 

KillmeNow said:
The list of super successful P5 coaches who got their starts coaching in the MAC is VERY VERY VERY LONG.
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What about the list of previous MAC coaches that failed to win a P5 championship?
 


How many Top 25 ranked teams did TC produce?

How many Top 25 ranked teams did PJF produce?
 

KillmeNow said:
How many Top 25 ranked teams did TC produce?

How many Top 25 ranked teams did PJF produce?
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This argument has nothing to do with Claeys. The argument is about Fleck and what he has/hasn't done to prove he can coach at the P5 level. Which is absolutely nothing. He has proven he can coach at the MAC level.
 



bottlebass said:
Brewster was a big talker, so is Fleck. Brewster was overly positive and so is Fleck. Brewster had catch phrases, so does Fleck. Brewster was a great recruiter so supposedly is Fleck. Brewster promised Rose Bowls and so is Fleck. Yes Fleck has actual head coaching experience. But there are more similarities than there are differences.

Can't wait to eat my hot chili on my row boat!
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How can someone be overly positive? That doesn't even make sense to me. Are you suggesting that Fleck is being optimistic beyond the bounds of what can reasonably be expected? And that this is a detriment?

That's crazy. If there's a camp of people who don't want our football coach to be optimistic, then I'm not in it. Perhaps you would be more content if Fleck looked dour and constipated like the pitchfork-holding farmer in the painting American Gothic. (I have no idea how to put a picture of that in here)
 

Debbie Downers!
For what has transpired, we came out with the best possible outcome. Getting Fleck here was the equivalent of the dork asking out the SI swimsuit model and getting a date. Enjoy the positivity while we have it. History suggests we will have challenges, but I'm pumped to have him here.
 

Urbandale said:
How can someone be overly positive? That doesn't even make sense to me. Are you suggesting that Fleck is being optimistic beyond the bounds of what can reasonably be expected? And that this is a detriment?

That's crazy. If there's a camp of people who don't want our football coach to be optimistic, then I'm not in it. Perhaps you would be more content if Fleck looked dour and constipated like the pitchfork-holding farmer in the painting American Gothic. (I have no idea how to put a picture of that in here)
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Where did I say it was a detriment? Just saying there is a comparison between the two based strictly on their personality and recruiting. Nothing more, nothing less.
 




KillmeNow said:
Apparently your argument is weak if you feel the need to limit the scope of the discussion? Because it IS a relevant question.
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Have you provided any proof that Fleck is already successful at coaching a P5 team? Let me know when you do. It is impossible so not sure why you are trying. It seems Jonny has already given up after realizing how stupid his claim was. It may be time for you to do the same.
 

Just trying to follow bottlebass' logic here....says that Fleck hasn't proved that he hasn't proved that he can coach at a P5 level, and yet he puts up wins against P5 teams with an inferior team at WMU (since MAC teams all don't qualify as D1 schools anymore apparently). God forbid a team outside the P5 has success nationally.

jlaw-okay.gif
 

bottlebass said:
This argument has nothing to do with Claeys. The argument is about Fleck and what he has/hasn't done to prove he can coach at the P5 level. Which is absolutely nothing. He has proven he can coach at the MAC level.
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Proving you can coach and win at the MAC level has been a very good indicator of the ability to coach at the P5 level. The fact that you do not know this is either a sign of your youth and ignorance or if you are older, maybe just ignorance of the facts or maybe just your being stubborn and desiring to defend your original opinion no matter what?
 



Seeing the title of the thread, I could only think this:

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nemo1107 said:
Just trying to follow bottlebass' logic here....says that Fleck hasn't proved that he hasn't proved that he can coach at a P5 level, and yet he puts up wins against P5 teams with an inferior team at WMU (since MAC teams all don't qualify as D1 schools anymore apparently). God forbid a team outside the P5 has success nationally.
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You don't follow well. Jonny claimed his record against B1G teams proves he is already a successful P5 coach. I then put up his record against the B1G. Care to answer if you think 2-7 is in support of Jonny's claim that he has already proven himself a successful P5 coach? The answer is an easy no.
 

bottlebass said:
Where did I say it was a detriment? Just saying there is a comparison between the two based strictly on their personality and recruiting. Nothing more, nothing less.
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Oh, come on. Using "overly" implies something excessive. You didn't say he was positive, you said he was overly positive.
 

KillmeNow said:
Proving you can coach and win at the MAC level has been a very good indicator of the ability to coach at the P5 level. The fact that you do not know this is either a sign of your youth and ignorance or if you are older, maybe just ignorance of the facts or maybe just your being stubborn and desiring to defend your original opinion no matter what?
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So every single coach that has succeeded at the MAC level has gone on to be successful at the P5 level? Or in reality do most fail? You have zero proof and now you are reaching with generalities that don't even help your position.

Edit: I'm going to lunch, I'll be back in a couple hours to see if you have come up with any proof or if you'll continue down your rabbit hole of insults since you have zero proof.
 

Urbandale said:
Oh, come on. Using "overly" implies something excessive. You didn't say he was positive, you said he was overly positive.
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Because he is, have you seen any interviews with him. "Overly" is an understatement.
 

bottlebass said:
Because he is, have you seen any interviews with him. "Overly" is an understatement.
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Well, in that case I don't know why you disagreed with me when I said you considered his demeanor detrimental. You clearly do. I clearly don't.
 


bottlebass said:
You don't follow well. Jonny claimed his record against B1G teams proves he is already a successful P5 coach. I then put up his record against the B1G. Care to answer if you think 2-7 is in support of Jonny's claim that he has already proven himself a successful P5 coach? The answer is an easy no.
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Kill has a losing record vs B1G conf teams as well.


And looking at who WMU played, in 2015 WMU played MSU and tOSU. Not like Kill/UMn could have beaten either of those teams in 2015.

2013 they played MSU, NW and Iowa. And that was his first season, his 1-11 season, when it can hardly have been expected of him to win those games

So maybe, JUST MAYBE you can fault him for losing to Purdue in 2014, his 2nd season.


So that accounts for 6 of the 7 losses. The 7th was a top 10 ranked Wisconsin whom TC and Minnesota couldn't beat either.

Kill/TC went 0-6 vs Wisconsin.
 

Kill has a losing record vs B1G conf teams as well.


And looking at who WMU played, in 2015 WMU played MSU and tOSU. Not like Kill/UMn could have beaten either of those teams in 2015.

2013 they played MSU, NW and Iowa. And that was his first season, his 1-11 season, when it can hardly have been expected of him to win those games

So maybe, JUST MAYBE you can fault him for losing to Purdue in 2014, his 2nd season.


So that accounts for 6 of the 7 losses. The 7th was a top 10 ranked Wisconsin whom TC and Minnesota couldn't beat either.

Kill/TC went 0-6 vs Wisconsin.
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Yeah I'm more encouraged about what he was able to accomplish once he had a full class of his own recruits. There was steady improvement year-to-year and it culminated in a great 2016 season. I'm not sure what more you could ask for in your first 4 years as a head coach.
 

Let's try this: Fleck has shown potential. He has had success at a mid-level conference.

This (Gopher job) is his 1st chance to coach - and recruit - at a major conference team - in one of the stronger FB conferences in D1. he may succeed. He may not. We don't know yet.

A year from now, we will know more, and 2 years from know, we'll know even more as we watch Fleck go through the routine of coaching and recruiting.

he may turn out to be the next Urban Meyer. he may turn out to be the next Joe Schmuck.

Again - we don't know yet. How about we wait until after the guy actually coaches a game in the B1G before declaring him a success or a failure.
 

Can tell how this already might go for some.

team wins 6 or less games next season - Fleck can't succeed at a P5 school

teams wins 7 or more games next season - doesn't prove Fleck can succeed at a P5 school because it was with players from the previous regime
 

bottlebass said:
So every single coach that has succeeded at the MAC level has gone on to be successful at the P5 level? Or in reality do most fail? You have zero proof and now you are reaching with generalities that don't even help your position.

Edit: I'm going to lunch, I'll be back in a couple hours to see if you have come up with any proof or if you'll continue down your rabbit hole of insults since you have zero proof.
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No, they haven't all been successful, but a good percentage of them have succeeded, and there is a good reason for this, which you seem to be unaware of, since it seems that you think that most fail.

And being ignorant isn't an insult, its a state of being. All people are ignorant in some way or another, no one can know everything. It just seems that you in particular, are ignorant of one aspect of cfb history. See, the reason a high percentage of former MAC coaches have gone on to success at P5 schools is because P5 schools want winners, so they don't hire coaches who didn't succeed at their MAC schools, they hire coaches who succeeded at their MAC schools and they succeeded as HEAD coaches. It's far more risky hiring a former coordinator, they have a much higher rate of failure. Why? Because being a successful coordinator takes different skill sets than are required to be a successful HEAD coach. Yes, some coordinators go on to make great Head coaches, but not a high percentage of them, and yes, some former successful MAC coaches have gone on to fail as coaches of P5 teams, but not a high percentage of them.

This is not something a fan of football in general may know or realize because at the NFL level, there is not a lot of layers, but a big fan of cfb can better see this because at the cfb level there are many layers, you have P5, Group of 5, Div 1AA, Div 2, Div 3, and Jr Coll. and often times successful coaches at one level are offered jobs at higher levels. Bernie Bierman was a successful high school football Head coach, as was Jerry Kill. Both moved into college coaching first at a lower level than P5, succeeded to some degree and moved on to the next level.


But we may simply have to agree to disagree, because I doubt either of us has the time or desire to do the research needed to prove our side. My guess though, is that there is a good article out there somewhere laying out the evidence of what I'm saying.
 

There are more similarities between apples and oranges than there are differences. They are both round, sweet fruits that grow on trees. It's just that these similarities aren't very important - like the supposed similarities between Brewster and Fleck. The main difference is that Fleck has had success at a head coach and Brewster was only a tight ends coach. That difference dwarfs the similarities.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
Let's try this: Fleck has shown potential. He has had success at a mid-level conference.

This (Gopher job) is his 1st chance to coach - and recruit - at a major conference team - in one of the stronger FB conferences in D1. he may succeed. He may not. We don't know yet.

A year from now, we will know more, and 2 years from know, we'll know even more as we watch Fleck go through the routine of coaching and recruiting.

he may turn out to be the next Urban Meyer. he may turn out to be the next Joe Schmuck.

Again - we don't know yet. How about we wait until after the guy actually coaches a game in the B1G before declaring him a success or a failure.
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Sounds like a good idea to me.

All I'll say is that I have high hopes for the future of Gopher football and I'm enjoying following along with the recruiting action since PJF was hired and I'm going to be excited for the next 2-3 seasons and to see what PJF does with our Gopher program.
 

KillmeNow said:
Sounds like a good idea to me.

All I'll say is that I have high hopes for the future of Gopher football and I'm enjoying following along with the recruiting action since PJF was hired and I'm going to be excited for the next 2-3 seasons and to see what PJF does with our Gopher program.
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I'm on board with this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 


KillmeNow said:
No, they haven't all been successful, but a good percentage of them have succeeded, and there is a good reason for this, which you seem to be unaware of, since it seems that you think that most fail.
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I'm not saying there is no chance he could be successful. I'm saying he hasn't proven to be successful at this level already. I'm not disputing what you are saying but you have moved the goal posts. The question was has he proven to be successful already? What proof do you have that he is already a successful P5 coach? I'm still waiting.
 

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