8 wins is unrealistic

[Spoofin]

Like I've said, I have no idea at this time what to expect next year. The fate of 10 players including the possible starting qb (Green) are unknown, have no clue what the secondary will look like, signing day hasn't happened yet, and you never know how long it will take for the players to buy in to the new regime. It's not hedging, it's acknowledging the obvious uncertainty of the situation.

Now this makes sense. I have no issue with this take at all. However, you responded to an objection I had with justifying low expectations as the price to pay for "culture change".


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[gopherswinagn]

Now this makes sense. I have no issue with this take at all. However, you responded to an objection I had with justifying low expectations as the price to pay for "culture change".


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10 players getting kicked off the team, losing more to graduation, maybe more transferring IS part of the of culture change. YOu can't separate the two when they are the same thing. And yes conduct off the field will always have consequences on the field. We will see the consequences of the culture on the field next year no matter who is coaching. Get it now!!!

 

[Spoofin]

10 players getting kicked off the team, losing more to graduation, maybe more transferring IS part of the of culture change. YOu can't separate the two when they are the same thing. And yes conduct off the field will always have consequences on the field. We will see the consequences of the culture on the field next year no matter who is coaching. Get it now!!!

Losing kids to graduation is part of culture change? Nope, guess I don't get it.

I am more convinced than ever that even you goofballs yelling "culture change" don't have a clue what you mean.


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[gopherswinagn]

Losing kids to graduation is part of culture change? Nope, guess I don't get it.

I am more convinced than ever that even you goofballs yelling "culture change" don't have a clue what you mean.


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Do you approve of 10 to 20 player gangbangs or Orgy's? Yes or NO?

 

[Spoofin]

Do you approve of 10 to 20 player gangbangs or Orgy's? Yes or NO?

So by changing culture you mean stopping graduation, caring about what kind of sex others have, and apparently presenting hearsay as fact? And here I thought you might be a troll.


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[Great Plains Gopher]

You're right - we'll be very weak at QB, receivers, and the secondary could be a big problem. Also, how will the new defensive coaches work out? Five or six wins would be very good, given a new system and all the losses.

 

[Former Goofer]

I don't think it is realistic that this program will win 9 games every year.

When we don't win 9 games next year everyone will call Fleck a failure and call for his head.

 

[Maverick]

I don't think it is realistic that this program will win 9 games every year.

Because the years we don't win 9, we will win 10, 11, 12 or 13....

 

[GFBfan]

10 were suspended pending the review process, they were not kicked off the team. 5 are going to be expelled, 4 suspended and 1 will be on probation if the rulings are upheld. That is not acceptable.
That culture also produced 27 Academic All Big ten players and the highest APR in the conference and is above the 90th percentile in all of D1 football.
Whether you agree with the boycott or not, you have to see that having 100 players band together speaks volumes to their solidarity which is a big part of what culture is all about.
I don't buy that the culture within the team needs a big overhaul. Some adjustments, yes, but the overall direction of the program was positive.
There are Many returning players who showed a ton of promise all year and their pride really shined in the bowl game win. Can't see why they wouldn't want to build off of that momentum and buy into what Coach Fleck is trying to do. Looking forward to seeing what will happen this year and feel they can reach the same win total as last year or at least come very very close to that.

 

[Hates Monikers]

Claeys is gone.
Get that into your head.
If Coyle wants to fire PJ after next year, I'll give him the option to do so because his name is on the results for the years to come, and it's the prime reason he fired Claeys. He didn't believe in Claeys long term vision by what he saw so far.

But for you to compare Claeys results with a veteran QB who was loved by the team to a new coach who might be using at best a borrowed QB until he can find his own high ranked QB who he'll choose to start for three years like Kill and Claeys is simply ridiculous.

Obviously, you don't have the ability to understand how a program is built, so any further comments from you read by those of us on this forum will result solely in time wasted.

"Borrowed QB?" Why do you keep spewing this crap? We'll have a guy who is three years out of high school and the top JUCO dual threat QB according to one service. Maybe we'll have Green and Williams. We're not starting a high school freshman. We'll be fine at QB.

 

[Johnnyboy18]

"Borrowed QB?" Why do you keep spewing this crap? We'll have a guy who is three years out of high school and the top JUCO dual threat QB according to one service. Maybe we'll have Green and Williams. We're not starting a high school freshman. We'll be fine at QB.

How can anyone say we'll be fine at QB? QB play was horrific last year and apparently the 4 guys on the team weren't better than Leidner that's a huge problem.

 

[Hates Monikers]

How can anyone say we'll be fine at QB? QB play was horrific last year and apparently the 4 guys on the team weren't better than Leidner that's a huge problem.

We had a three year starter at QB. All things equal ... or close ... the three year starter/captain gets the nod. When Kill burned Croft's redshirt in 2015, it was because they were going to start playing him. Leidner turned it around. Leidner was no better in 2016 than he was at the start of 2015, but the staff was intent on redshirting the younger guys.

Was Croft or the freshmen better than Leidner this year? I'm sure they weren't. Do younger college players continue to get better, stronger and better as they age? Yes. It happens everywhere in college football. Every year.

If the new QB throws potentially game changing interceptions in only four games next year, that will be an improvement.

 

[bottlebass]

Okay. You don't understand or care what change the culture means.
Just because you don't care doesn't mean it still won't take time to turn the program around.

It was headed straight south, but if you only want to count wins and ignore culture, then you will be disappointed by next years results most likely.


Either you care about changing the culture or you don't and you appear to not care.
That's fine, but it's part of what PJF has to deal with whether you decide to admit it or not.

Do you even understand what culture you want changed? Have you even noticed that our football team is one of the tops in the country academically? How about how close and family like the team was? That is just horrible culture!

Headed straight south? Because a few freshman made a poor decision? Sorry to tell you that poor decisions are made on college campuses all over the nation every day. They were freshman, basically kids and kids make mistakes, learn from those mistakes and improve as people. The culture that needs to be changed at the U is the culture that is OK with throwing additional kids under the bus that had nothing to do with the event and forever associating their name with the event. That is unfair culture and needs to be changed. In this country you are innocent until proven guilty, college football players have rights too.

 

[Spoofin]

Do you even understand what culture you want changed? Have you even noticed that our football team is one of the tops in the country academically? How about how close and family like the team was? That is just horrible culture!

Headed straight south? Because a few freshman made a poor decision? Sorry to tell you that poor decisions are made on college campuses all over the nation every day. They were freshman, basically kids and kids make mistakes, learn from those mistakes and improve as people. The culture that needs to be changed at the U is the culture that is OK with throwing additional kids under the bus that had nothing to do with the event and forever associating their name with the event. That is unfair culture and needs to be changed. In this country you are innocent until proven guilty, college football players have rights too.

Sure. But rumor is most of these kids wear shirts with no collar. Bad apples.


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[bottlebass]

Sure. But rumor is most of these kids wear shirts with no collar. Bad apples.


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Better than a popped collar.

 

[Maverick]

Do you even understand what culture you want changed? Have you even noticed that our football team is one of the tops in the country academically? How about how close and family like the team was? That is just horrible culture!

Headed straight south? Because a few freshman made a poor decision? Sorry to tell you that poor decisions are made on college campuses all over the nation every day. They were freshman, basically kids and kids make mistakes, learn from those mistakes and improve as people. The culture that needs to be changed at the U is the culture that is OK with throwing additional kids under the bus that had nothing to do with the event and forever associating their name with the event. That is unfair culture and needs to be changed. In this country you are innocent until proven guilty, college football players have rights too.

Couldn't agree more. I'd add that the fan apathy and lack of a great game day atmosphere also needs changing.

 

[bottlebass]

Couldn't agree more. I'd add that the fan apathy and lack of a great game day atmosphere also needs changing.

IF that is the type of culture 37 is talking about (and it doesn't seem to be, it seems he's talking about "rape culture") the only way that changes is winning more and creating a better game day experience. Some of that is on the gophers most is on ESPN and other TV networks that drag the games out to 4 hours. If we could just win 1-2 more games/year the people will come.

 

[Maverick]

IF that is the type of culture 37 is talking about (and it doesn't seem to be, it seems he's talking about "rape culture") the only way that changes is winning more and creating a better game day experience. Some of that is on the gophers most is on ESPN and other TV networks that drag the games out to 4 hours. If we could just win 1-2 more games/year the people will come.

It's all culture. Some we have is good and needs to be sustained. Some is ok but could be better. Some is horrible and needs to go. Only time will tell what changes actually happen.

 

[37score]

So by changing culture you mean stopping graduation, caring about what kind of sex others have, and apparently presenting hearsay as fact? And here I thought you might be a troll.


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Yes. I'm sure that's what he meant.

Nice waste of time posting this.

We want to stop graduation.
We want to present hearsay as fact.

Nice job looping in those two items because no kids will graduate if we don't have multiple guys banging the same drunk gal in a given evening.

It's like you are correlating the two together or something.



And yes, again, the culture change that needs to take place, since none of you seem to understand it is:

1. Improve game day experience by increasing attendance by having the public be proud of the players off the field actions instead of despising the team based on their off the field actions. I think most people is fine with whoever the team wants to have sex with as long as they aren't bordeline sexually assaulting others.

A simple rule, if you are making news that could alienate the broad fan base who have varied opinions on what is right or wrong for a student athlete, that is going to hurt attendance, your negatively affecting the program.

Many of you seem to think that performing actions that make the newscast isn't a big deal, or that it should just go away, but others actually care and realize that even though a girl may not have been raped, or it might not have even been sexual assault (if you want to believe that) the majority of the public can still be sickened and turned off by what happened and decide to not attend games or purchase tickets.

That's the culture change that needs to happen.
IT DOES NOT MEAN, we want to supervise or sign off on any sexual acts they do. Just don't put yourself in situations that tarnish the University of Minnesota to the degree that this did.

This is the final time I'll explain this to you people who don't seem to understand that public perception is based off of independent opinions, many which appear to differ than many of you die-hards.

 

[btowngopher]

How can anyone say we'll be fine at QB? QB play was horrific last year and apparently the 4 guys on the team weren't better than Leidner that's a huge problem.

You're assuming the staff identified the best option at QB.

 

[btowngopher]

Yes. I'm sure that's what he meant.

Nice waste of time posting this.

We want to stop graduation.
We want to present hearsay as fact.

Nice job looping in those two items because no kids will graduate if we don't have multiple guys banging the same drunk gal in a given evening.

It's like you are correlating the two together or something.



And yes, again, the culture change that needs to take place, since none of you seem to understand it is:

1. Improve game day experience by increasing attendance by having the public be proud of the players off the field actions instead of despising the team based on their off the field actions. I think most people is fine with whoever the team wants to have sex with as long as they aren't bordeline sexually assaulting others.

A simple rule, if you are making news that could alienate the broad fan base who have varied opinions on what is right or wrong for a student athlete, that is going to hurt attendance, your negatively affecting the program.

Many of you seem to think that performing actions that make the newscast isn't a big deal, or that it should just go away, but others actually care and realize that even though a girl may not have been raped, or it might not have even been sexual assault (if you want to believe that) the majority of the public can still be sickened and turned off by what happened and decide to not attend games or purchase tickets.

That's the culture change that needs to happen.
IT DOES NOT MEAN, we want to supervise or sign off on any sexual acts they do. Just don't put yourself in situations that tarnish the University of Minnesota to the degree that this did.

This is the final time I'll explain this to you people who don't seem to understand that public perception is based off of independent opinions, many which appear to differ than many of you die-hards.

One act does not create a "Culture". There isn't some corrupt criminal culture in this football program. Find me a program that doesn't run into occasional legal issues from time to time.

 

[dpodoll68]

Do you approve of 10 to 20 player gangbangs or Orgy's? Yes or NO?

If it's consensual? YES. People caring, at all, about other people's consensual sexual practices is really, really weird.

 

[37score]

"Borrowed QB?" Why do you keep spewing this crap? We'll have a guy who is three years out of high school and the top JUCO dual threat QB according to one service. Maybe we'll have Green and Williams. We're not starting a high school freshman. We'll be fine at QB.

A first year QB, whether JUCO, redshirt freshman / sophomore, or pure freshman is different than a 3 year starter who was probably the most prominent leader in the lockerroom this team has had in decades. Of any QB we had (or other position), the one thing that is undeniable about Mitch is that he was a true leader of the team, moreso than the last few QB's we've had.

Maybe you disagree, but when you go from a 3 year starter to a QB starting his first or second game, you have risk of lower level of performance. (Not to mention, new offensive scheme possibly which affects the veteran players on the offensive unit who now might have to do something new and different versus running the same plays of the last three years).

 

[37score]

If it's consensual? YES. People caring, at all, about other people's consensual sexual practices is really, really weird.

I would say I approve of it if they aren't going to put themselves at risk of making a negative news story.
You might not even have to do anything wrong, but if you're putting yourself at risk with someone who might decide to share the story, you better make sure the story isn't that note-worthy where people will be upset.

If this was an alleged sexual assault between one or two players and a alleged victim, it likely makes the news, but not as big of a story. But when it goes from what it has, becomes national news, then it's amplified via boycott threats... Yep. That I' am against because it created a mess and it cost the coach his job (even though leaders can't say it for legal reasons probably).

 

[Spoofin]

Yes. I'm sure that's what he meant.

Nice waste of time posting this.

We want to stop graduation.
We want to present hearsay as fact.

Nice job looping in those two items because no kids will graduate if we don't have multiple guys banging the same drunk gal in a given evening.

It's like you are correlating the two together or something.

Umm, he said losing kids to graduation was part of culture change. Not me. You seem to forget that. He said those exact words.

As for the rest of the garbage you are spewing (for the last time, apparently) it is nonsense. First, no you shouldn't care if the players, or anyone, engage in group sex if it was consensual. Second, Hearsay as fact? Yes you are. 10-20. Drunk. Should I continue? Third, are we going to pretend that this one incident happened because of some out of control culture? To do that we need to ignore all the positives and the record for all the other years JK and TC were here. An incident is not a culture. Jerry had a culture to change. PJF doesn't. These things aren't even in the same ball-park. I again assume you didn't follow the Gophers at all when Brew was here.

PJF started preaching "culture change" at his opening presser. He had been in MN for like an hour. You think he sat down and evaluated everything about our players and program and determined we needed a culture change? You are naive. He would have said the same no matter what job he went to. RTB. Ski-U-Mah. Elite. Change. Make America Great Again. They all mean nothing and folks like you eat it up like candy. You are the type of person the media preys on.

I like PJF. I think he could be successful here. I am optimistic for the future and expect more than most next year with him. Boy oh boy could I do without the rhetoric tho. And those that eat it.




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[bottlebass]

Yes. I'm sure that's what he meant.

Nice waste of time posting this.

We want to stop graduation.
We want to present hearsay as fact.

Nice job looping in those two items because no kids will graduate if we don't have multiple guys banging the same drunk gal in a given evening.

It's like you are correlating the two together or something.



And yes, again, the culture change that needs to take place, since none of you seem to understand it is:

1. Improve game day experience by increasing attendance by having the public be proud of the players off the field actions instead of despising the team based on their off the field actions. I think most people is fine with whoever the team wants to have sex with as long as they aren't bordeline sexually assaulting others.

A simple rule, if you are making news that could alienate the broad fan base who have varied opinions on what is right or wrong for a student athlete, that is going to hurt attendance, your negatively affecting the program.

Many of you seem to think that performing actions that make the newscast isn't a big deal, or that it should just go away, but others actually care and realize that even though a girl may not have been raped, or it might not have even been sexual assault (if you want to believe that) the majority of the public can still be sickened and turned off by what happened and decide to not attend games or purchase tickets.

That's the culture change that needs to happen.
IT DOES NOT MEAN, we want to supervise or sign off on any sexual acts they do. Just don't put yourself in situations that tarnish the University of Minnesota to the degree that this did.

This is the final time I'll explain this to you people who don't seem to understand that public perception is based off of independent opinions, many which appear to differ than many of you die-hards.

Wait, so you are you blaming the low attendance this year on this one occurrence? Like I said earlier these were freshman. This happened after their first game. How much culture can you instill on someone before even 1 year of school and team culture is instilled? Attendance is down all across the nation, not just here. The game day experience hasn't kept up with the TV experience. You can't blame the low attendance on the sexual actions of a few freshman. There are sexual allegations and other criminal scandals up and down other more successful programs who still sell out every year.

 

[bottlebass]

Umm, he said losing kids to graduation was part of culture change. Not me. You seem to forget that. He said those exact words.

As for the rest of the garbage you are spewing (for the last time, apparently) it is nonsense. First, no you shouldn't care if the players, or anyone, engage in group sex if it was consensual. Second, Hearsay as fact? Yes you are. 10-20. Drunk. Should I continue? Third, are we going to pretend that this one incident happened because of some out of control culture? To do that we need to ignore all the positives and the record for all the other years JK and TC were here. An incident is not a culture. Jerry had a culture to change. PJF doesn't. These things aren't even in the same ball-park. I again assume you didn't follow the Gophers at all when Brew was here.

PJF started preaching "culture change" at his opening presser. He had been in MN for like an hour. You think he sat down and evaluated everything about our players and program and determined we needed a culture change? You are naive. He would have said the same no matter what job he went to. RTB. Ski-U-Mah. Elite. Change. Make America Great Again. They all mean nothing and folks like you eat it up like candy. You are the type of person the media preys on.

I like PJF. I think he could be successful here. I am optimistic for the future and expect more than most next year with him. Boy oh boy could I do without the rhetoric tho. And those that eat it.




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Spoofin I usually try to argue with you, but you are spot on here. Couldn't be more spot on.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

I would say I approve of it if they aren't going to put themselves at risk of making a negative news story.
You might not even have to do anything wrong, but if you're putting yourself at risk with someone who might decide to share the story, you better make sure the story isn't that note-worthy where people will be upset.

If this was an alleged sexual assault between one or two players and a alleged victim, it likely makes the news, but not as big of a story. But when it goes from what it has, becomes national news, then it's amplified via boycott threats... Yep. That I' am against because it created a mess and it cost the coach his job (even though leaders can't say it for legal reasons probably).

Assuming it was consensual (because this debate is about consensual sexual activities), that is the single dumbest argument that I've ever heard.

Your argument is that you shouldn't engage in something legal and consensual IF there is a risk that someone will lie about what happened and it becomes a national story? Wait. . .what?

You can't really hold that opinion can you?

Like it's ok to go to the supermarket and buy seafood, however, if you get falsely accused of stealing seafood, your fault.
You should simply never have sex, Jameis Winston was accused of it (1 on 1) and it was kind of a big story.
You better not go to the mall, someone could accuse you of stealing jeans.

This stance is putrid. If they engaged in consensual sex and she lied, it is a big story because of her lies. You can't stop someone from making something up about you, you certainly shouldn't be punished for it.

In the US, we let people engage in the kind of consensual sexual activity they prefer, it's just weird to have any sort of opinion on that.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

It's all culture. Some we have is good and needs to be sustained. Some is ok but could be better. Some is horrible and needs to go. Only time will tell what changes actually happen.

Please break down this "culture" thing.

Honestly, what needs to stay and what needs to go and how will a coach improve on it.

 

[rugger14]

Assuming it was consensual (because this debate is about consensual sexual activities), that is the single dumbest argument that I've ever heard.

Your argument is that you shouldn't engage in something legal and consensual IF there is a risk that someone will lie about what happened and it becomes a national story? Wait. . .what?

You can't really hold that opinion can you?

Like it's ok to go to the supermarket and buy seafood, however, if you get falsely accused of stealing seafood, your fault.
You should simply never have sex, Jameis Winston was accused of it (1 on 1) and it was kind of a big story.
You better not go to the mall, someone could accuse you of stealing jeans.

This stance is putrid. If they engaged in consensual sex and she lied, it is a big story because of her lies. You can't stop someone from making something up about you, you certainly shouldn't be punished for it.

In the US, we let people engage in the kind of consensual sexual activity they prefer, it's just weird to have any sort of opinion on that.

You are absolutely correct if you are talking about guaranteed 100% consensual legal sexual conduct that does not violate student conduct standards. However, I don't think the point was don't do something legal if someone might lie about it later and accuse you of a crime. I think the point is that when you choose to engage in conduct where alcohol is involved and the definition of "consent" can be hazy you are putting yourself at risk. Choose to engage in that activity if you like but don't be surprised if it turns into a mess.

Bottom line: If those players had chosen not to engage in the activity they engaged in that night, the whole season would have played out differently and 10 players would not be facing student conduct issues. Just because something is legal doesn't mean it is a good idea.

Old staff, new staff, whatever staff, this upcoming season has a lot of unknowns. The situation was not helped by the conduct of some of our student athletes.