8 wins is unrealistic

[bottlebass]

Claeys is gone.
Get that into your head.
If Coyle wants to fire PJ after next year, I'll give him the option to do so because his name is on the results for the years to come, and it's the prime reason he fired Claeys. He didn't believe in Claeys long term vision by what he saw so far.

But for you to compare Claeys results with a veteran QB who was loved by the team to a new coach who might be using at best a borrowed QB until he can find his own high ranked QB who he'll choose to start for three years like Kill and Claeys is simply ridiculous.

Obviously, you don't have the ability to understand how a program is built, so any further comments from you read by those of us on this forum will result solely in time wasted.

PJ won't be fired after 1 year even if he wins zero games. I'm just responding to the people who claim Fleck isn't a rebuilding hire. I understand how a program is built. Kill/Claeys were doing a beautiful job of it, to the point where the program didn't need rebuilding.

 

[bottlebass]

Bottlebass is solely proving his lack of intelligence by making these arguments.

In Bottlebass'es world, if he dates a girl and they get pregnant and the girl dumps him when she's 3 months along. In Bottlebass's world, when he gets his next date 2 months later with a new girl, he expects her to be 5 months pregnant with his kid on the first date.

16 posts in, great work. I'm going to assume your education has failed you since you type that after calling out someone's intelligence. Or maybe you still have classes to take, in which case I've followed gopher's football longer than you have been alive.

 

[37score]

That's how you see it. I see that he won 2 bowl games in a row, including one where off field problems most thought guaranteed a loss. We won 9 games for the 2nd time since longer than any of us have been alive. Took the eventual B1G champs to over time on the road. Etc Etc Etc.

If people don't want to call Fleck a rebuilding hire than the expectations should be not to take a step back. Hence my expectations of 8-9 wins. Unless he IS a rebuilding hire, but then call him that (like I have been doing). I'll be happy if we win 6 games and possibly 7 with a bowl win.

You don't realize he's rebuilding???

Of course he's rebuilding. You don't change culture in a week. He might have to cut half the team to change culture.

You don't seem to understand how sick this situation is viewed nationally.

This is serious crap and you think because they had 8 or 9 wins, that this was a successful year?

Arguably one of the most humiliating seasons on a National scale from a national perspective anywhere, and you are still defending it because we beat Rutgers and Oregon St and 7 other teams?
That out weighs the negative attention in your mind?

So in your mind, winning one bowl game corrects the culture?

Wow. I wish my head was as simple at solving cultural issues as yours is.

 

[WorkingMyTailOff]

Agreed, and I'll add if Rhoda is our starting QB this coming season people really better start lowering their expectations.

I will be pleasantly surprised if a better option (than Rhoda) emerges next year.

 

[bottlebass]

You don't realize he's rebuilding???

Of course he's rebuilding. You don't change culture in a week. He might have to cut half the team to change culture.

You don't seem to understand how sick this situation is viewed nationally.

This is serious crap and you think because they had 8 or 9 wins, that this was a successful year?

Arguably one of the most humiliating seasons on a National scale from a national perspective anywhere, and you are still defending it because we beat Rutgers and Oregon St and 7 other teams?
That out weighs the negative attention in your mind?

So in your mind, winning one bowl game corrects the culture?

Wow. I wish my head was as simple at solving cultural issues as yours is.

You are really funny. No one in the national picture gives 2 sh!ts about MN football. These "scandals" are happening every year and at much higher profile programs and no one cares there either. It has basically blown over except here in MN. Yes 9 wins was a successful year. Please show me a more successful year in your lifetime besides Mason's one year.

Where did I say winning 1 bowl game corrects the culture? You need to learn to read and maybe chill out before you type such ridiculous posts.

 

[imthewalrus]

Bob__Loblow said: "...Isn't the best way to determine how good a coach is to look at their record? Like, how they actually do?..."

Absolutely the ONLY way, B_L. You are, of course right...

wren ; 0 )



The posters who claim they KNOW what would have been AND ESPECIALLY those who claim they know how fleck WILL be are totally projecting their own prejudices, hopes, hunches, fantasy flights and booze and drug hang over hallucinations.


It is a LONG time to wait, but I will wait until I start seeing the PRODUCT on the field and the on the field, game day Saturday results. And THEN I will inform the world just what kind of first year fleck and the team had in 2017. I will JUMP on it and get all over people here who obviously had it all wrong. I will tell you IF there is any creedence in or room for this boat rowing b.s. and I will tell you IF Minnesota is the ONLY ELITE college team in America with all elite players, coaches, fans, etc. Or, if we all want to wear masks and paper bags over our heads to hide just in case all the rest of the Big Ten decides to really make an example of fleck's system of culture club stuff. Maybe it WILL be magical and mystical and transforming enough for fleck to franchise his methods and plug them in around the country...Baton Rouge, Columbus, Ann Arbor, Madison, Austin, LA, State College, College Station...This might be bigger than McDonald's and fleck could become the NEXT franchise king. It sure played well in KZOO in 2016...

I will tell you IF fleck's kzoo culture club stuff works in the Big City. I will tell you how and IF fleck kept it together going into hostile stadiums in BIG TEN COUNTRY. I will tell you IF coyle and prexy k (if they are still around and employed at the U...)

I won't be one bit shy to announce just what the story IS in December or January 2017/2018. But, I'll be damned if I know right now how it is going to all play out. So, I'm waiting, watching, listening, remembering and will do a come to Jesus" session once we all KNOW how it IS going to play out in 2017. I see a lot of funny stuff being said, and guaranteed, and I see all kinds of pre-face saving backing off and lots of really crazy KZOO transplanted stuff being forced into the Local Football Program by the new music man. Maybe it will work. Maybe it will BOMB OUT and fail. There are a lot of maybe things floating around. Maybe just isn't good stuff to guarantee.

This is ONE story that will be worth my waiting for. One way or another it is going to be a REAL PLEASURE to tell you all about flecks first year. A LOT will make itself perfectly clear. I can wait. I really look forward to this 2017 football season.

The TRUTH comparing first year coaches here at the U of M is going to be a kick in the a$$ for some....I can promise that. The TRUTH will set this board free!

 

[beatles]

Bob__Loblow said: "...Isn't the best way to determine how good a coach is to look at their record? Like, how they actually do?..."

Absolutely the ONLY way.

Ok. Claeys was 6-8 in conference play beating Purdue twice, Illinois, Maryland, Rutgers, and Northwestern. 0-4 against our top two rivals. But hey he beat Central Michigan in Detroit so we should have kept him.

 

[bottlebass]

Ok. Claeys was 6-8 in conference play beating Purdue twice, Illinois, Maryland, Rutgers, and Northwestern. 0-4 against our top two rivals. But hey he beat Central Michigan in Detroit so we should have kept him.

That's how you see it. You could also say in his first season as head coach he was 5-4 in the conference.

 

[West Fargo Gopher Fan]

Just an observation. I think we could merge this thread into the one below and nobody would notice.

http://www.forums.gopherhole.com/boards/showthread.php?73477-The-cynic-thread

 

[dpodoll68]

Under normal circumstances Tracy Claeys would not have even been considered to be our head coach.

Under normal circumstances Pat Fitzgerald would not have even been considered to be Northwestern's head coach. So what?

 

[dpodoll68]

Ok. Claeys was 6-8 in conference play beating Purdue twice, Illinois, Maryland, Rutgers, and Northwestern. 0-4 against our top two rivals. But hey he beat Central Michigan in Detroit so we should have kept him.

Yup, he sure was 6-8 in the Big Ten. How long has it been since a Minnesota coach had that winning percentage in the Big Ten?

 

[beatles]

Under normal circumstances Pat Fitzgerald would not have even been considered to be Northwestern's head coach. So what?

Did Walker pass away while they didn't have an AD? I'm honestly asking, I don't know. The fact that we didn't have an AD is the unusual circumstance I'm talking about. We really didn't have much choice we basically were forced to hire from within. Your comparioson falls flat sorry.

 

[cjbfbp]

Why do you take a brand new hire (let alone at a School that hadn't won a conference Championship in 40+ years), and expect near Championship results (which 8 or 9 wins might be next year) with a first year starter at QB.

Amazing how you keep arguing a fairly unsupportable position (now, they may not get close to 8 wins but, then again, they could) for no real benefit. You can't really win or lose an argument like this.

And 8 or 9 wins typically would fall short of a conference championship result. Refer to us in 3 out of the last 4 years or to Nebraska that has had multiple 9 season win seasons in recent years and hasn't even won a divisional championship.

 

[bigticket1]

You don't realize he's rebuilding???

Of course he's rebuilding. You don't change culture in a week. He might have to cut half the team to change culture.

You don't seem to understand how sick this situation is viewed nationally.

This is serious crap and you think because they had 8 or 9 wins, that this was a successful year?

Arguably one of the most humiliating seasons on a National scale from a national perspective anywhere, and you are still defending it because we beat Rutgers and Oregon St and 7 other teams?
That out weighs the negative attention in your mind?

So in your mind, winning one bowl game corrects the culture?

Wow. I wish my head was as simple at solving cultural issues as yours is.

You honestly believe that half the remaining players need to go because of the way they treat women ? Or is it because they won't wear collared shirts or sit in the front row of class ?

 

[Spoofin]

Agreed, and I'll add if Rhoda is our starting QB this coming season people really better start lowering their expectations.

84th post in thread. Finally something accurate.


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[West Fargo Gopher Fan]

84th post in thread. Finally something accurate.


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Spoofin you're the best

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Ok. Claeys was 6-8 in conference play beating Purdue twice, Illinois, Maryland, Rutgers, and Northwestern. 0-4 against our top two rivals. But hey he beat Central Michigan in Detroit so we should have kept him.

LOL. OK.

So by this metric, you DO expect Fleck to win 8 + games then right? If that's nothing to sneeze at for a coach in his first season, we should expect Fleck to hold court and beat every team he's favored to beat and pull off two upsets? That should be 8 wins.

The entire point of this is that you can't have it both ways. You can't shrug off Claeys accomplishments and then set the bar low for Fleck. Well you can, it is just completely inconsistent.

 

[Spoofin]

LOL. OK.

So by this metric, you DO expect Fleck to win 8 + games then right? If that's nothing to sneeze at for a coach in his first season, we should expect Fleck to hold court and beat every team he's favored to beat and pull off two upsets? That should be 8 wins.

The entire point of this is that you can't have it both ways. You can't shrug off Claeys accomplishments and then set the bar low for Fleck. Well you can, it is just completely inconsistent.

One thing we know for sure, the PJF bobos will continue with inconsistencies at levels we have never seen before. Great Coach. Super Recruiter. Better than TC in both respects. But, he should only be expected to get half the wins. Can't explain why? Say culture. Say it again. Eat culture for breakfast. Eat it for lunch. All Perfectly logical.


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[37score]

One thing we know for sure, the PJF bobos will continue with inconsistencies at levels we have never seen before. Great Coach. Super Recruiter. Better than TC in both respects. But, he should only be expected to get half the wins. Can't explain why? Say culture. Say it again. Eat culture for breakfast. Eat it for lunch. All Perfectly logical.


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Okay. You don't understand or care what change the culture means.
Just because you don't care doesn't mean it still won't take time to turn the program around.

It was headed straight south, but if you only want to count wins and ignore culture, then you will be disappointed by next years results most likely.


Either you care about changing the culture or you don't and you appear to not care.
That's fine, but it's part of what PJF has to deal with whether you decide to admit it or not.

 

[beatles]

LOL. OK.

So by this metric, you DO expect Fleck to win 8 + games then right? If that's nothing to sneeze at for a coach in his first season, we should expect Fleck to hold court and beat every team he's favored to beat and pull off two upsets? That should be 8 wins.

The entire point of this is that you can't have it both ways. You can't shrug off Claeys accomplishments and then set the bar low for Fleck. Well you can, it is just completely inconsistent.

Claeys first season wasn't an entire coaching staff change. Completely different but nice try.

 

[beatles]

Anyone comparing Claeys' first season to a typical first season of a head coach is either intentionally being disingenuous or doesn't have a clue. Every player on the roster knew Claeys very well at the time of his hiring. Claeys knew every player on the roster at the time of his hire. Every defensive player knew Sawvel and the system. That is not the case when you hire a new coach from outside the program. The fact that this needs to be pointed out to the Loblaws, bottlebasses, and Spoofins of this board is very telling. So please STOP acting like Claeys first season was typical and should be compared to an entire regime change like we're seeing now. It is ENTIRELY different which is why some fans on here have lower expectations.

Does Fleck know our roster like Claeys did when he took over? Do the players know Fleck like they knew Claeys when he took over? Do our players know Flecks' systems like they knew Claeys'???

It's not hard to see why there could be an adjustment period during this coaching change compared to when Kill left which is exactly why our record may suffer initially. This should not have to be explained to knowledgeable college football fans.

 

[37score]

Anyone comparing Claeys' first season to a typical first season of a head coach is either intentionally being disingenuous or doesn't have a clue. Every player on the roster knew Claeys very well at the time of his hiring. Claeys knew every player on the roster at the time of his hire. Every defensive player knew Sawvel and the system. That is not the case when you hire a new coach from outside the program. The fact that this needs to be pointed out to the Loblaws, bottlebasses, and Spoofins of this board is very telling. So please STOP acting like Claeys first season was typical and should be compared to an entire regime change like we're seeing now. It is ENTIRELY different which is why some fans on here have lower expectations.

Does Fleck know our roster like Claeys did when he took over? Do the players know Fleck like they knew Claeys when he took over? Do our players know Flecks' systems like they knew Claeys'???

It's not hard to see why there could be an adjustment period this coaching change compared to when Kill left which is exactly why our record may suffer initially. This should not have to be explained to knowledgeable college football fans.

+1

 

[GopherHomer]

I agree that the 'culture' stuff is over played. My honest expectations is that Fleck has this program back to 8+ wins by his second year. Next year, though, is set up for failure...it would have been for Claeys as well. Because of Tracy's lazy recruiting PJ had to bail out and rebuild basically the entire class in a month. I'm fairly certain Claeys would have won about 5 or 6 games next year...so that is kind of the baseline upon which I am judging Fleck. I'm not giving him a complete pass in 2017 but I'm not going to stop rowing the boat or write him off until I see what he can do with a couple full recruiting classes.

I mean it even took Nick Saban a year to get Alabama on track. Obviously Fleck is probably not Saban - but on the other hand Minnesota is definitely not Alabama. Give it time - we went from having a dumpy coach nobody cared about to a coach that everybody wants. Nothing but upside - worst case scenario is that he doesn't succeed and we are in the same position we have always been in. Enjoy the energy.

 

[MrC]

I think the operational definition of expectations is: "Should we stay with PJ, or try for better?"

In my opinion, here is the year by year perspective:

Year 1: Who knows? Might find a good quarterback and win 9, might have trouble getting players on board along with the results of the suspensions and win 2. Either way, not sure it means much.

Year 2: Gopherholers start touting the relative quality of recruiting classes instead of falling back on arguments that "stars don't mean anything" or that our coaching staff is exceptional at "coaching 'em up." The win/loss record that year is not as important as progress in recruiting. But signs of progress on the field are evident.

Year 3: Showing real signs of improvement. Recruting much stronger than historical norms. Winning games by coming from behind against good opponents, or not collapsing in key games. At least 8 wins.

Year 4: Big Ten West Champs or damned close. Maintain recruiting

Year 5: Big Ten West Champs or acceptable step back if year 4 is a Big Ten West Championship. Maintain recruiting.

Year 6 to Year n: Always in the hunt. Special season every few years. Some years nationally ranked entire season. Win a Big Ten Championship more often than, let's say, every 14 years. Maintain recruiting.

 

[Spoofin]

Okay. You don't understand or care what change the culture means.
Just because you don't care doesn't mean it still won't take time to turn the program around.

It was headed straight south, but if you only want to count wins and ignore culture, then you will be disappointed by next years results most likely.


Either you care about changing the culture or you don't and you appear to not care.
That's fine, but it's part of what PJF has to deal with whether you decide to admit it or not.

As I said. Don't know why? Just say culture over and over. Only 3 times in your post tho. Disappointing. I suspect you don't have any idea what you even mean by "change the culture". Yeah, we were in a free fall with our bad culture. New to the team, huh? Do you remember the Brewster days?

FTR - I'm supporting PJF. I think he could be great. Didn't want TC fired, but that is in the rear view mirror now. This whole "culture change" and low expectations from the bobos tho is enough to make me ill. It is total 100% BS. Culture culture culture.


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[beatles]

This whole "culture change" and low expectations from the bobos tho is enough to make me ill. It is total 100% BS. Culture culture culture.


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Its not BS, it's using logic unlike a simpleton like yourself. If Hardin, Shenault, and Buford are all gone with the graduation losses of Myrick and Travis then the secondary is entirely decimated. That's NOT on Fleck. And it's not low expectations, it's just the unknowns of an entire regime change.

 

[Gopher_Vet]

Yet another example of someone who doesn't want to let facts or due process get in the way! Label them all rapists, (because they are African American) throw the coach under the bus and "row the boat" to a perfectly acceptable 6-7 win season. Progress.

Trolling, not rowing. Ha.


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[Spoofin]

Its not BS, it's using logic unlike a simpleton like yourself. If Hardin, Shenault, and Buford are all gone with the graduation losses of Myrick and Travis then the secondary is entirely decimated. That's NOT on Fleck. And it's not low expectations, it's just the unknowns of an entire regime change.

See, this is hedging.
Are we gonna suck next year because of our DBs or because that is the price to pay for this needed "culture change" to bring us back from the abyss?


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[Halsey Hall]

There seems to be a fair number of "fans" on here who are expecting Fleck to show up, change the culture, re-institute a whole new program and culture, and expect to have him win 8 games in his first season.

This is simply unrealistic, and really simply for one reason only.

The team has a new leader. With Mitch Leidner graduating, the Gophers are losing not just any QB, but an NFL caliber QB who was probably the winningest QB at Minnesota in 30 years.
Some of you seem to think that veteran leadership accounts for nothing.
Some of you seem to think that just taking a carefully groomed QB who was molded by Claeys and Kill can just be replaced by some high school student who was just recruited who somehow is going to walk in and take the lockerroom leader role, and control the culture of the other 60-80 sophomores, Juniors, and Seniors on the team and guide them as Mitch did.

Mitch wasn't the QB on this team simply because of his ability to run and throw the football. He was identified early as a stand up guy who the rest of the team looked up to when he stood out as a sophomore.
Some of you seem to take this for granted. Sure he had some inconsistencies, but to think a new coach with a new QB is just going to show up as a 100% certainty, and bring equal results in year one of a five year plan is ludicrous.

Just drop it now. You're being unreasonable and you're purposely setting unrealistic expectations for a team that will be short handed at QB and CB for the next couple years.

If you feel you want to be snarky and negative for the next two years, then you are already prescribing your own success in ensuring you'll be disappointed. But that type of attitude has plagued Gopher football for far too long.

Yes, I was bummed to see Claeys be sent away, but I am not going to make unreasonable predictions for a first year coach who's only fault so far was to believe in the University of Minnesota.

Brady 6th round, Montana 3rd round, Russel Wilson 3rd round, Fran Tarkenton 3rd round, Johnny Unitas, not drafted. You think Leidner is going to be drafted???? He will NOT make an NFL roster

 

[beatles]

See, this is hedging.
Are we gonna suck next year because of our DBs or because that is the price to pay for this needed "culture change" to bring us back from the abyss?


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Like I've said, I have no idea at this time what to expect next year. The fate of 10 players including the possible starting qb (Green) are unknown, have no clue what the secondary will look like, signing day hasn't happened yet, and you never know how long it will take for the players to buy in to the new regime. It's not hedging, it's acknowledging the obvious uncertainty of the situation.