Zulgad: Gophers’ failure to identify starting QB a reminder of where Kill went wrong

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John Galt said:
How was Streveler dynamic? He basically played 1 game vs San Jose St. and completed 1 pass. Nothing against him personally, but he's the poster child for the failed QB recruiting under Kill.
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USD 823 yards at 5.1 per carry at the QB position is dynamic. 161 yards in his sole start for us was dynamic. I shouldn't have to spell it out. I have no idea if he could make the throws downfield as a full-time starter. None of us saw him get a chance to throw.

I have no idea if he was a turnover machine on the practice field and a dunce in the QB room.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Lol, are we going to pretend we miss Chris Streveler now? And Tulane is still a FBS school and not a FCS school. Apples and oranges.

Streveler averaged 7.1 yards per pass attempt, the exact same as Leidner, yet at a lower level. I watched several USD games last year and Streveler can get away with a lot more at that level. His arm is not strong, but he's a great athlete.

Jordan Lynch had ~3000 passing yards each of his last 2 seasons at NIU and the NFL would only give him a shot a RB. That was the type of QB Kill kept recruiting, good athletes, not good passers. Both Rhoda and Croft have much better arms than Streveler but still might not be good QBs.
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Many FCS teams give Power 5 teams fits. Obviously there is a talent differential however.

Is being piss poor at Div 1 G5 Tulane > average to good at Div 1 FCS USD? That's a new paradigm.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
Many FCS teams give Power 5 teams fits. Obviously there is a talent differential however.

Is being piss poor at Div 1 G5 Tulane > average to good at Div 1 FCS USD? That's a new paradigm.
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Fits for 1 game is different than fits for an entire season.

Lee still played in the FBS as a true Freshman and Sophomore. He was sacked a bunch and still has more TDs than INTs. Streveler dropped down to a lower level and started as a RS JR. That makes a big difference.

I have no idea if Lee will be good at Nebraska or not, but plenty of people think he looks good, and he has far more talent to work with than at Tulane. I'd much rather take my chances with Lee over Streveler or our current situation.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Fits for 1 game is different than fits for an entire season.

Lee still played in the FBS as a true Freshman and Sophomore. He was sacked a bunch and still has more TDs than INTs. Streveler dropped down to a lower level and started as a RS JR. That makes a big difference.

I have no idea if Lee will be good at Nebraska or not, but plenty of people think he looks good, and he has far more talent to work with than at Tulane. I'd much rather take my chances with Lee over Streveler or our current situation.
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Fake news. He had around the median # sacks for FBS. Not quite a Hack situation.
 

For the record, I'm not stating that we do (or should) miss Streveler. I was merely countering the suggestion that he had no business being recruited as a Division I QB. Last season proved that demonstrably false.

Also, not sure if serious, but the idea that we have 20-30 players who would be in USD's HOF is one of the more asinine comments ever posted here.
 


Pompous Elitist said:
USD 823 yards at 5.1 per carry at the QB position is dynamic. 161 yards in his sole start for us was dynamic. I shouldn't have to spell it out. I have no idea if he could make the throws downfield as a full-time starter. None of us saw him get a chance to throw.

I have no idea if he was a turnover machine on the practice field and a dunce in the QB room.
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Stats at USD don't even remotely correlate to the B1G. Streveler literally had no other D-1 offers other than the Gophers, let alone P5.

You rip Leidner ad nauseum and think his running game won't be missed, but now Streveler was dynamic because he ran for 161 vs SJSU? Leidner, Gray and probably half the QBs we've played over the last 10 years could have ran for 161 that game. You rip Leidner's passing incessantly, but Streveler just wasn't given a chance? Of all the poor passers we've had, he's probably the least accurate.
 

dpodoll68 said:
For the record, I'm not stating that we do (or should) miss Streveler. I was merely countering the suggestion that he had no business being recruited as a Division I QB. Last season proved that demonstrably false.

Also, not sure if serious, but the idea that we have 20-30 players who would be in USD's HOF is one of the more asinine comments ever posted here.
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Streveler's moderate success at USD doesn't prove he's a Power 5 QB or that he should have ever been recruited. Next you'll be telling us that when Jacques Perra has success at St Thomas it's proof he should be playing at the U.
 

John Galt said:
Stats at USD don't even remotely correlate to the B1G. Streveler literally had no other D-1 offers other than the Gophers, let alone P5.

You rip Leidner ad nauseum and think his running game won't be missed, but now Streveler was dynamic because he ran for 161 vs SJSU? Leidner, Gray and probably half the QBs we've played over the last 10 years could have ran for 161 that game. You rip Leidner's passing incessantly, but Streveler just wasn't given a chance? Of all the poor passers we've had, he's probably the least accurate.
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Yes, that's dynamic. Why is this hard? I've repeatedly said Leidners run game is the one aspect of his game that we will miss greatly. Your recall is terrible.

Like, I said, I have no idea if Strev would have been functional as a power 5 QB. He was certainly quicker and faster than Leidner as a runner. He has been functional at a lower level Div 1 program. He was in fact recruited and signed by Div 1 coaches that thought his arm was adequate. However there's a lot more that goes into playing QB.

I just watched the replay of MN at WI 2016 and witnessed Leidner throw 2 horrible picks in the span of 20 seconds to completely torpedo the game. I don't need to review how we let that game slip from our fingers. Decision-making is the #1 attribute. Like I said, maybe Strev was careless with ball. Maybe he couldn't make the downfield throws. Maybe he wasn't a team guy. I have no idea.
 

John Galt said:
Streveler's moderate success at USD doesn't prove he's a Power 5 QB or that he should have ever been recruited. Next you'll be telling us that when Jacques Perra has success at St Thomas it's proof he should be playing at the U.
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Success at a lower level is a prerequisite to even be considered for the next level. Does college performance correlate to NFL ability despite the huge difference in talent? Somewhat. To say there is NO correlation is absurd. Obviously arm strength and accuracy become more important as the defensive players become faster (and smarter).
 



Pompous Elitist said:
Fake news. He had around the median # sacks for FBS. Not quite a Hack situation.
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Fake? He averaged 2.21 sacks per game which would have put him at 77th in the country last year. That's in the bottom 40%. It's not the worst, but it's not exactly the median either.
 

Not a recruiting guru here so I don't have much knowledge of who we are recruiting but does anyone know if PJ is recruiting a highly rated qb for next year. My thought is that could be an indication he is not totally sold on our current stable of qb's and would prefer to bring his own in asap. Perhaps not selecting one starter is an attempt to temper the results and development of a qb of this season to allow his own guy when he comes in to take over. Conspiracy theory I know.


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CentralGopher said:
Not a recruiting guru here so I don't have much knowledge of who we are recruiting but does anyone know if PJ is recruiting a highly rated qb for next year. My thought is that could be an indication he is not totally sold on our current stable of qb's and would prefer to bring his own in asap. Perhaps not selecting one starter is an attempt to temper the results and development of a qb of this season to allow his own guy when he comes in to take over. Conspiracy theory I know.


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This is the guy we keep hearing about - http://247sports.com/Player/Brennan-Armstrong-77636
 

CentralGopher said:
Not a recruiting guru here so I don't have much knowledge of who we are recruiting but does anyone know if PJ is recruiting a highly rated qb for next year. My thought is that could be an indication he is not totally sold on our current stable of qb's and would prefer to bring his own in asap. Perhaps not selecting one starter is an attempt to temper the results and development of a qb of this season to allow his own guy when he comes in to take over. Conspiracy theory I know.


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In addition to what FredCox posted about Armstrong, Morgan is a Fleck guy as well, but he's likely going to redshirt. If Croft struggles this year, it could be between Morgan and Armstrong next year.
 



John Galt said:
Streveler's moderate success at USD doesn't prove he's a Power 5 QB
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Good thing I didn't say that.

John Galt said:
or that he should have ever been recruited
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Recruited by whom? Last year proved that he is absolutely a Division I QB. That's inarguable.

John Galt said:
Next you'll be telling us that when Jacques Perra has success at St Thomas it's proof he should be playing at the U.
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A. I have never said that Streveler should be playing at the U. Trying reading comprehension.

B. Division III is so far afield from Division I that even making the comparison is stupid.
 

New Title for Zulgad to consider: "Fleck has not identified a QB yet, so I'm assuming that's a failure."
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Fake? He averaged 2.21 sacks per game which would have put him at 77th in the country last year. That's in the bottom 40%. It's not the worst, but it's not exactly the median either.
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What? The Tulane line gave up 26 sacks in 2015 and it was similar in 2014. 26 ties for 56th in the FBS. How many teams are in FBS?
 


Pompous Elitist said:
Yes, that's dynamic. Why is this hard? I've repeatedly said Leidners run game is the one aspect of his game that we will miss greatly. Your recall is terrible.

Like, I said, I have no idea if Strev would have been functional as a power 5 QB. He was certainly quicker and faster than Leidner as a runner. He has been functional at a lower level Div 1 program. He was in fact recruited and signed by Div 1 coaches that thought his arm was adequate. However there's a lot more that goes into playing QB.

I just watched the replay of MN at WI 2016 and witnessed Leidner throw 2 horrible picks in the span of 20 seconds to completely torpedo the game. I don't need to review how we let that game slip from our fingers. Decision-making is the #1 attribute. Like I said, maybe Strev was careless with ball. Maybe he couldn't make the downfield throws. Maybe he wasn't a team guy. I have no idea.
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I guess we could also call Harold Howell and Isaiah Gentry dynamic. Put me in the camp that needs to see something more than 1 game against SJSU to use an accolade like that.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
Success at a lower level is a prerequisite to even be considered for the next level. Does college performance correlate to NFL ability despite the huge difference in talent? Somewhat. To say there is NO correlation is absurd. Obviously arm strength and accuracy become more important as the defensive players become faster (and smarter).
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Streveler couldn't get on the field at the U and went to USD so he could actually play in real games. Why is that so hard to understand?
 

It's all about the system. Put a QB in a system that he fits, and he can look good. put a QB in a system that he doesn't fit, and it's very hard to look good.

Streveler could have been a really good D1 QB in a wishbone or veer-style offense - but very few teams run that kind of system anymore.

I think part of the problem for Kill & Claeys - and programs like the Gophers in general - is that they don't get the top QB recruits, and they wind up having to settle for players who have flaws in their game, or QB's who fall into the "good athlete" mode, but may not be able to master some of the fine points of the position.

For a variety of reasons, Kill & Claeys never seemed to find the right QB for their system. Or, the QB coaching left something to be desired.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Lee didn't play in every game. He was sacked 42 times in 19 games.
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We're talking about the quality of their line. Their line didn't give up an unusual number of sacks. If the backup came in and is sacked less that could also point to problems of holding the ball too long and indecision.
 


John Galt said:
Streveler couldn't get on the field at the U and went to USD so he could actually play in real games. Why is that so hard to understand?
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I'm not arguing against that. Again, we never saw enough of him as a passer to say whether or not he would have been serviceable.

let's just say I don't trust your scouting assessments.
 

I'm in the (likely very) small camp that wouldn't have minded Streveler getting more of a shot to play for the Gophers. For what Kill/Limegrover wanted to do at the U, I think he could have had some success. He ran the read-option extremely well, at least IMO.

I wasn't a big Leidner basher but my knock on Leidner was that he wasn't "great" at either, throwing or running. Teams didn't have to fully respect either with Leidner. At least with Streveler, he was an elite runner/athlete that probably could have thrown it just well enough to have some success. When you have to suck up so much to respect his running, you're going to have some open receivers, ones that don't require the most accurate of throws. Would he have had more success than Leidner? Maybe not, but I would have liked to see him play more.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
We're talking about the quality of their line. Their line didn't give up an unusual number of sacks. If the backup came in and is sacked less that could also point to problems of holding the ball too long and indecision.
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That could be due to a number of factors related or not related to Lee. All I said is he was 'sacked a bunch of times', which is true, and you called it fake for whatever reason.
 

Ogee Oglethorpe said:
I'm in the (likely very) small camp that wouldn't have minded Streveler getting more of a shot to play for the Gophers. For what Kill/Limegrover wanted to do at the U, I think he could have had some success. He ran the read-option extremely well, at least IMO.

I wasn't a big Leidner basher but my knock on Leidner was that he wasn't "great" at either, throwing or running. Teams didn't have to fully respect either with Leidner. At least with Streveler, he was an elite runner/athlete that probably could have thrown it just well enough to have some success. When you have to suck up so much to respect his running, you're going to have some open receivers, ones that don't require the most accurate of throws. Would he have had more success than Leidner? Maybe not, but I would have liked to see him play more.
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Yep. If memory serves, think that the final straw for Streveler was when they tried to convert him to TE. Just looked and he caught 1 pass and rushed 4 times. That was after completing 4 passes and rushing 36 times in '14.

Can't blame him for wanting out. Without knowing what went on behind the scenes and in practice, can't blame the coaching staff for not giving him a better shot.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
I'm not arguing against that. Again, we never saw enough of him as a passer to say whether or not he would have been serviceable.

let's just say I don't trust your scouting assessments.
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As opposed to your scouting assessment, which is that everyone is unbelievable if coach just would give them a shot in a game? I'd love to hear where my scouting assessment has been off? Probably because I didn't pick Demry to finish all-conference, huh?
 

Pompous Elitist said:
I'm not arguing against that. Again, we never saw enough of him as a passer to say whether or not he would have been serviceable.

let's just say I don't trust your scouting assessments.
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Some of us actually attend practice...
 

For what it's worth, I was at a USD game last fall that was very winnable for USD, but for competent QB play. If you liked Leidner's passing acumen then you'd love Strev as your QB. Frankly, a guy who is legitimately a big 10 QB should be on an all conference team in FCS. In fact, Strev isn't even close in the Missouri Valley and the fact he ended up at USD tells you that there are much better QBs at better MVFC teams. Strev was always a stretch at QB now that the forward pass is legal in tackle football.
 

It occurs to me that finding a good QB who is not one the the elite 5 star guys is difficult. Its one of the biggest reasons why Gophers have struggled to win big over last few decades.

Many coaching staffs of MAC type level jobs struggle with it as well. Every now and again, somebody hits and their QB turns out to be a real find.

Inevitably, this translates to winning seasons and then the coaching staff gets hired by a B1G type level school.

But can they do it again? Can they catch lightning in a bottle twice?

Most times, the answer is no. If a coaching staff lasts 5 seasons at the B1G level job, that's truly only your first 2 or 3 recruiting classes to find that next QB star. By year 3 or 4, the pressure is on to win and most coaches aren't then handing the reins to true FR or RS FR at QB. The margin for error is very thin.

My summary...the shortcomings of the Kill/Claeys era in the QB department are a very common theme around college football. A great QB can make or break you. Finding a lesser recruited one is basically a lottery ticket that is a long shot to pay off.
 

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