Zion Williamon's former agent alleges he received impermissible benefits

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Some guy said:
The NCAA is the major brands

People act like the ncaa is some separate entity.



The schools are the ncaa
The ncaa are the schools
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They are one and the same because the NCAA, while created as a federation of schools standardizing the rules, has morphed into something much more. It now has a financial stranglehold on all of the schools involved and with so much money involved it's objective is maintaining the status quo.

Would love to see the Big Ten and several other conferences pull away and create their own system and tournament(s). NCAA adds no value...
 

builtbadgers said:
The conferences and the schools are the brands but the NCAA actually is something that university presidents really support. There are competitive balances, checks and balances, safety , student interest and extraordinary money distribution in a equitable manner. You called them nothing. Reform is always needed but if you talk to AD's and coaches they will tell you that the NCAA IS NECESSARY for basketball.
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Some guy said:
I’m not talking about brands. I’m talking about investigations and rules
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The P6 (+ a few) could easily setup their own association to serve exactly the same purpose.

There is of course value in the enforcement of rules and organization, logistics, etc. There isn't necessarily value in specifically the NCAA now, and how it is setup.
 

MplsGopher said:
The P6 (+ a few) could easily setup their own association to serve exactly the same purpose.

There is of course value in the enforcement of rules and organization, logistics, etc. There isn't necessarily value in specifically the NCAA now, and how it is setup.
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They could but it’s unlikely because to set the rules they’d have to be nearly unanimous to set a new set of rules.

whereas now they only need a majority to change the rules in a system everyone has already agreed to follow
 

Some guy said:
They could but it’s unlikely because to set the rules they’d have to be nearly unanimous to set a new set of rules.

whereas now they only need a majority to change the rules in a system everyone has already agreed to follow
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More money has a way of motivating people!

Back when the NCAA was established, there was no such thing as TV money for football or march madness. Let alone conf tournys and champ games.
 

The NCAA will not bite the hand that feeds it. They'll find a UNC type of lame excuse. There is two systems of fairness in the NCAA. One for Duke, UNC, and company. The other for teams like Minnesota and other less revenue generator for the NCAA.
 


hungan1 said:
The NCAA will not bite the hand that feeds it. They'll find a UNC type of lame excuse. There is two systems of fairness in the NCAA. One for Duke, UNC, and company. The other for teams like Minnesota and other less revenue generator for the NCAA.
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If that was true why did USC get wacked in football, Louisville in basketball. Some universities lawyer up, some pay the price that they should, like we did. And some win huge without cheating. Just like society.
 

builtbadgers said:
If that was true why did USC get wacked in football, Louisville in basketball. Some universities lawyer up, some pay the price that they should, like we did. And some win huge without cheating. Just like society.
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Louisville got caught with payola and hookers and all. People squealed to save their bacon. MN Nordsmen just don't know how to cheat the right way. :sneaky:
 





alchemy2u said:
But, unfortunately in todays game cheating wins and brings in recruits.
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Other programs overcome it and beat the cheaters. Out scout them,out develop them and out coach them. It can be done. You have to be great.
 


Over the last 5 years UVA has 12 more conference victories than Duke. Duke has one conference title since Bennett got to UVA and that was in his first year !
 

builtbadgers said:
Over the last 5 years UVA has 12 more conference victories than Duke. Duke has one conference title since Bennett got to UVA and that was in his first year !
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Ok, so 1 out of ~335 schools is able to do it, does that really prove your point of a viable approach to the issue?
 




GopherBlood666 said:
All he's saying is that you need a hall of fame coach to do it, simple right? ?
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A Jay Wright, a Tony Bennett, i believe Beard will do it, Leonard Hamilton won the conference, Bo Ryan knocked off that Kentucky team. That is the point, you need a great coach to do great things but it can be done. Takes special people with great skills and high character. Not simple or it would not be special. It is inspirational to see others build it from mediocrity, against great odds from a vision of not trying to beat them their way, best them your way.
 

builtbadgers said:
Other programs overcome it and beat the cheaters. Out scout them,out develop them and out coach them. It can be done. You have to be great.
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Please Built. Of course their are a few programs that can compete once in a while with the cheaters that get all of the 5-star recruits. But you have pointed out on numerous occasions that all the kids want to play for the cheaters, they all think the cheater have better coaches, they can play with better players on the cheaters, they have a shot to be national champs on the cheaters, they increase there market value by playing for the cheaters, the cheaters have better brands, etc....

Just for comparison, here are the season final standings by year (instead of just saying who was the conference champs).

2019-20 Duke 11, Kan 1, Kent 8, NC --, Vir 16
2018-19 Duke 4, Kan 16, Kent 7, NC 9, Vir 1
2017-18 Duke 4, Kan 3, Kent 17, NC 14, Vir 5
2016-17 Duke 7, Kan 3, Kent 6, NC 5, Vir 24
2015-16 Duke 18, Kan 3, Kent 16, NC 2, Vir 5
2014-15 Duke 1, Kan 17, Kent 3, NC 12, Vir 8
2013-14 Duke 16, Kan 14, Kent 2, NC 21, Vir 10
2012-13 Duke 5, Kan 8, Kent --, NC --, Vir --
2011-12 Duke 14, Kan 2, Kent 1, NC 6, Vir --
2010-11 Duke 7, Kan 4, Kent 3, NC 8, Vir --
2009-10 Duke 1, Kan 6, Kent 5, NC --, Vir --
2008-09 Duke 11, Kan 10, Kent --, NC 1, Vir --
2007-08 Duke 16, Kan 1, Kent --, NC 3, Vir --
 

alchemy2u said:
Please Built. Of course their are a few programs that can compete once in a while with the cheaters that get all of the 5-star recruits. But you have pointed out on numerous occasions that all the kids want to play for the cheaters, they all think the cheater have better coaches, they can play with better players on the cheaters, they have a shot to be national champs on the cheaters, they increase there market value by playing for the cheaters, the cheaters have better brands, etc....

Just for comparison, here are the season final standings by year (instead of just saying who was the conference champs).

2019-20 Duke 11, Kan 1, Kent 8, NC --, Vir 16
2018-19 Duke 4, Kan 16, Kent 7, NC 9, Vir 1
2017-18 Duke 4, Kan 3, Kent 17, NC 14, Vir 5
2016-17 Duke 7, Kan 3, Kent 6, NC 5, Vir 24
2015-16 Duke 18, Kan 3, Kent 16, NC 2, Vir 5
2014-15 Duke 1, Kan 17, Kent 3, NC 12, Vir 8
2013-14 Duke 16, Kan 14, Kent 2, NC 21, Vir 10
2012-13 Duke 5, Kan 8, Kent --, NC --, Vir --
2011-12 Duke 14, Kan 2, Kent 1, NC 6, Vir --
2010-11 Duke 7, Kan 4, Kent 3, NC 8, Vir --
2009-10 Duke 1, Kan 6, Kent 5, NC --, Vir --
2008-09 Duke 11, Kan 10, Kent --, NC 1, Vir --
2007-08 Duke 16, Kan 1, Kent --, NC 3, Vir --
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Even better, from the time he got gis guys to be upperclassmen , which is a central focus in the plan he has played them even and beat UNC regularly. Just get sick of the whining that it can not be done. Not competing once in awhile. Hell, how about we never compete and make excuses year after year and often praise a near .500 year. Win Big ! Make no mistake, as a huge supporter of UVA i despise how Duke and UNC and Louisville have done it but it makes it all the better when UVA beats them and in the case of Louisville he destroyed them. The way they do business has cost UVA even more titles. But overcoming things is the key to winning.
 
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builtbadgers said:
Even better, from the time he got gis guys to be upperclassmen , which is a central focus in the plan he has played them even and beat UNC regularly. Just get sick of the whining that it can not be done. Not competing once in awhile. Hell, how about we never compete and make excuses year after year and often praise a near .500 year. Win Big ! Make no mistake, as a huge supporter of UVA i despise how Duke and UNC and Louisville have done it but it makes it all the better when UVA beats them and in the case of Louisville he destroyed them. The way they do business has cost UVA even more titles. But overcoming things is the key to winning.
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Seems like the consensus on this page of the thread (except for Built) is that people believe cheating is totally worth it if it leads to winning, because some have reaped rewards over the years while cheating. And playing by the rules with out consistent success is not worth it, so I'd better start cheating so I can keep up? I guess I know who I could never trust to be on the up-and-up and honest in a real life situation.

Frustrating to see more willing to accept the " If they did it, I should be allowed to do it too" philosophy to build a successful program.

I'd love to see the Gophers being at the top of the conference every year and competing for National Championships every year as much as everybody, but man, if I found out they were cutting corners and cheating, that would completely ruin it for me. It would be embarrassing. That tournament run in the late 90's? One of the most embarrassing moments in sports for me, when I found out I had been rooting for a team that cheated to get there.
 


I think it’s time to put Coach K under the spotlight and get to the bottom of what benefits this young man received while playing for Duke. Coach K is not squeaky clean and should be held accountable.
 

Chico Gopher said:
Seems like the consensus on this page of the thread (except for Built) is that people believe cheating is totally worth it if it leads to winning, because some have reaped rewards over the years while cheating. And playing by the rules with out consistent success is not worth it, so I'd better start cheating so I can keep up? I guess I know who I could never trust to be on the up-and-up and honest in a real life situation.

Frustrating to see more willing to accept the " If they did it, I should be allowed to do it too" philosophy to build a successful program.

I'd love to see the Gophers being at the top of the conference every year and competing for National Championships every year as much as everybody, but man, if I found out they were cutting corners and cheating, that would completely ruin it for me. It would be embarrassing. That tournament run in the late 90's? One of the most embarrassing moments in sports for me, when I found out I had been rooting for a team that cheated to get there.
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Same. Never condone cheating .
 

builtbadgers said:
Same. Never condone cheating .
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But in a way you have by glorifying why a player would choose a Duke or Kentucky or Kansas or even the last local kid that chose NC.

Either you treat cheating program like they deserve and refuse to accept everything they do because it was done the wrong way. Their wins are meaningless, their style of basketball is of no interest, their coaches are nobody, their graduates accomplished nothing.... They play the game by a different set of rules than all of the clean programs.

Or you accept their cheating because you like to watch them play, they are on TV all the time, they have good players, they have chance to win the NC most every year, etc...
 

alchemy2u said:
But in a way you have by glorifying why a player would choose a Duke or Kentucky or Kansas or even the last local kid that chose NC.

Either you treat cheating program like they deserve and refuse to accept everything they do because it was done the wrong way. Their wins are meaningless, their style of basketball is of no interest, their coaches are nobody, their graduates accomplished nothing.... They play the game by a different set of rules than all of the clean programs.

Or you accept their cheating because you like to watch them play, they are on TV all the time, they have good players, they have chance to win the NC most every year, etc...
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Always stated that it is the recruits glorifying those programs not me. I travel to see them lose to UVA, TO WATCH UVA fill the trophy case with numerous conference titles and the national title. Zion did not win the conference or make the final 4 much less win the National title. Under recruited, little 5'8 Kehei Clark did !
 

Gonzaga is another school able to compete with the big boys. I'm not aware that they are suspected of cheating? I agree with Built, it can be done. I do not want to win by cheating. I don't think Richard cheats. Yes, he has not won. Yes, he has holes in his approach but there is something that suggests to me it is possible he could put together a run and win. He did do it with the NIT. I think it could happen in the NCAA.
Get Robbins eligible, add an eligible Gach, Carr returns and I think we could be good this coming season. If that doesn't happen, I agree we can't continue to wait for it another season and another...
 

60's Guy said:
Gonzaga is another school able to compete with the big boys. I'm not aware that they are suspected of cheating? I agree with Built, it can be done. I do not want to win by cheating. I don't think Richard cheats. Yes, he has not won. Yes, he has holes in his approach but there is something that suggests to me it is possible he could put together a run and win. He did do it with the NIT. I think it could happen in the NCAA.
Get Robbins eligible, add an eligible Gach, Carr returns and I think we could be good this coming season. If that doesn't happen, I agree we can't continue to wait for it another season and another...
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Nobody is arguing “it can’t be done”. The point is you need a hall of fame coach or a great coach and then you might win every 7 years.
Chico Gopher said:
Seems like the consensus on this page of the thread (except for Built) is that people believe cheating is totally worth it if it leads to winning, because some have reaped rewards over the years while cheating. And playing by the rules with out consistent success is not worth it, so I'd better start cheating so I can keep up? I guess I know who I could never trust to be on the up-and-up and honest in a real life situation.

Frustrating to see more willing to accept the " If they did it, I should be allowed to do it too" philosophy to build a successful program.

I'd love to see the Gophers being at the top of the conference every year and competing for National Championships every year as much as everybody, but man, if I found out they were cutting corners and cheating, that would completely ruin it for me. It would be embarrassing. That tournament run in the late 90's? One of the most embarrassing moments in sports for me, when I found out I had been rooting for a team that cheated to get there.
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Wrong, I am not saying it. The NCAA is saying it because of the way the rules are enforced. If the blue bloods are allowed to cheat than everyone should be allowed to cheat. You are playing a fools game otherwise. If I am in a boxing match and my competitor grabs brass knuckles and the ref does nothing, then I am grabbing some brass knuckles and not feeling bad about it. It’s a fools game to watch your competitor grab brass knuckles and then just smile and take the beating.

When UNC gamed the whole system and nothing happened, at that point, I lost any confidence in the system. What Minnesota did in comparison to UNC wasn’t even close. UNC was so systematic, intentional, and involved so many people it was a joke. I like you felt shame, but now I see what’s really going on and now I am upset that some are more equal than others.
 

You can win every year. If your talking about winning it all only every 7 years that is a incredible rate ! Most fans accept that winning it once would be incredible, most fans here would be thrilled if we could win the big 10 once. Guess UVA punch out the teams that used brass knuckles by not boxing but by being smart and finding another way. Of course i wish the cheaters did not use brass knuckles then UVA would always crush them because they had a few special advantages . Better scouting, better coaching, better conditioning, actual real academics, experience, smarts, unity, mental and physical toughness. Being a whiner about it does nothing, beat them.
 

builtbadgers said:
You can win every year. If your talking about winning it all only every 7 years that is a incredible rate ! Most fans accept that winning it once would be incredible, most fans here would be thrilled if we could win the big 10 once. Guess UVA punch out the teams that used brass knuckles by not boxing but by being smart and finding another way. Of course i wish the cheaters did not use brass knuckles then UVA would always crush them because they had a few special advantages . Better scouting, better coaching, better conditioning, actual real academics, experience, smarts, unity, mental and physical toughness. Being a whiner about it does nothing, beat them.
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It is not a matter of whining about, it is demanding an even playing field.
 

alchemy2u said:
It is not a matter of whining about, it is demanding an even playing field.
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Been demanding it for decades. Bob Knight tried everything. I have despised the guys i knew cheated in the golf tournaments i played in. I could not stop the cheating but i could beat them. I demand winning. We knew law firms that cheated, agencies that cheated but found a way to beat them all the while knowing that cheaters did not win anything if they cheated.
 

builtbadgers said:
Been demanding it for decades. Bob Knight tried everything. I have despised the guys i knew cheated in the golf tournaments i played in. I could not stop the cheating but i could beat them. I demand winning. We knew law firms that cheated, agencies that cheated but found a way to beat them all the while knowing that cheaters did not win anything if they cheated.
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I have to give credit to UVA, it is pretty certain that Bennett #2 (or #1 for that matter) does not cheat and he has gotten the job done.

My only reason for replying is that I remember Bob Knight going on tirades against cheaters forever. Joe B Hall, Lou Henson, the Pyramid of Success, ect. The Big Ten seemed to cheat less than other conferences, but cheating really got Bob Knight fired up. Interesting that his pupil Coach K turned into one those cheaters eventually. So much for that West Point code of conduct. (my brother went to West Point and has a few stories.)
 

oak_street1981 said:
I have to give credit to UVA, it is pretty certain that Bennett #2 (or #1 for that matter) does not cheat and he has gotten the job done.

My only reason for replying is that I remember Bob Knight going on tirades against cheaters forever. Joe B Hall, Lou Henson, the Pyramid of Success, ect. The Big Ten seemed to cheat less than other conferences, but cheating really got Bob Knight fired up. Interesting that his pupil Coach K turned into one those cheaters eventually. So much for that West Point code of conduct. (my brother went to West Point and has a few stories.)
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Exactly. For the boorish behavior that eventually consumed Bob, one thing he was not was a cheat. I despise losing but i would rather play clean and lose then cheat and win. Brad Stevens gave a great talk on this on the radio and made it a point to mention those that one big playing clean.
 

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