Why does Minnesota HS football only play 8 games?

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The only thing I would change is to add one game to have a 10 game guarantee. The addition of classes is about numbers and money. The high school league likes more state tickets sold. However, concussions are playing a huge role in decisions. Size, speed, and strength play a a role in adding classes. This is not basketball, 40 players can't compete with 90-100. Teams like the Bloomington's should not be on the same field as EP, Wayzata, etc. The kid in EP has to compete year round to start. This is similar to Kill taking 18-20 year olds and trying to compete against 21-23 years olds.

All teams in MN make the playoffs now. There are 6-8 teams in every section. To win state you have to play 13-14 games. The Vikings stadium will cause some creativity ove the next few years. They will either have move the season up, shorten the playoffs or run the risk of poor weather, snow. Class 6A is playing all state games in the dome this year and next.
 

HopHead said:
If they ever went to a system where only four teams made a playoff in each section, the conferences would have to be eliminated at least for football.
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Correct. This has been discussed by the MSHSL. The cons are travel expenses. I think once the new stadium is built, conferences will go away. Schools are starting to pay schools to schedule non-conference games (not $800,000), section football would eliminate this issue.
 

MaxyJR1 said:
Correct. This has been discussed by the MSHSL. The cons are travel expenses. I think once the new stadium is built, conferences will go away. Schools are starting to pay schools to schedule non-conference games (not $800,000), section football would eliminate this issue.
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I find that hard to believe. Can you link me to something of substance that indicates this is happening?
 

Dr.Don said:
I find that hard to believe. Can you link me to something of substance that indicates this is happening?
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It's been the case primarily with Eden Prairie and the other four remaining Lake schools. They have an odd number, so every week, someone has to play a NC game. A lot of schools don't want to play them because of their size. (I've also heard the rumor that a lot of schools won't schedule EP specifically because Mike Grant, who is also the AD, is so disliked by other coaches and AD's). As such, those schools are having to either travel out of state, or bring in out of state teams, to play games. I thought EP actually went to Winnipeg a couple years back.
 

Dr.Don said:
I find that hard to believe. Can you link me to something of substance that indicates this is happening?
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MPLS. South vs EP. You think they went for free? Some schools have started giving a % of the gate to teams.
 


MaxyJR1 said:
MPLS. South vs EP. You think they went for free? Some schools have started giving a % of the gate to teams.
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You say that, yes. All I asked for a to link me to something of substance to prove what you say. Until then, I find it hard to believe.
 

What is the website that carries the prep bowl? Thanks.
 





MaxyJR1 said:
Teams like the Bloomington's should not be on the same field as EP, Wayzata, etc. The kid in EP has to compete year round to start. This is similar to Kill taking 18-20 year olds and trying to compete against 21-23 years olds.
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Bloomington Jefferson has 1600+ kids in the high school. The law of diminishing returns from another 1000 students is in full effect after 1200. The fact is the Bloomington youth system, the Bloomington coaches and their off-season workouts are all inferior to the Lake conference programs. They just aren't as serious about football.
Dr.Don said:
I find that hard to believe. Can you link me to something of substance that indicates this is happening?
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Couldn't find much but there were a bunch of articles in the tribune that you'd have to pay for now that they're in the archive. Wayzata paid Owatonna, Eden Prairie paid Washburn and Edina paid Chanhassen. They also used to travel far out of state until that was disallowed by the MSHSL due to the poor schools who were jealous.
http://www.chanvillager.com/news/sports/what-was-really-behind-that-football-game-against-edina/article_33f3c795-93f1-59c6-ab43-26745524e6a7.html
It was a few years ago, since then the Lake conference has made deals with the South Suburban and Northwestern Suburban to get some games in exchange for not joining their conferences and destroying them more often. Wayzata has just had to settle for fewer regular season games--7 this year.
 

AO54 said:
Bloomington Jefferson has 1600+ kids in the high school. The law of diminishing returns from another 1000 students is in full effect after 1200. The fact is the Bloomington youth system, the Bloomington coaches and their off-season workouts are all inferior to the Lake conference programs. They just aren't as serious about football.
Couldn't find much but there were a bunch of articles in the tribune that you'd have to pay for now that they're in the archive. Wayzata paid Owatonna, Eden Prairie paid Washburn and Edina paid Chanhassen. They also used to travel far out of state until that was disallowed by the MSHSL due to the poor schools who were jealous.
http://www.chanvillager.com/news/sports/what-was-really-behind-that-football-game-against-edina/article_33f3c795-93f1-59c6-ab43-26745524e6a7.html
It was a few years ago, since then the Lake conference has made deals with the South Suburban and Northwestern Suburban to get some games in exchange for not joining their conferences and destroying them more often. Wayzata has just had to settle for fewer regular season games--7 this year.
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While I agree that it is much more a problem of the Bloomington school's having bad programs (youth all the way on up). I don't see how the law of diminishing returns. I don't think at any point it would hurt a football program to have more kids.
 

AO54 said:
Bloomington Jefferson has 1600+ kids in the high school. The law of diminishing returns from another 1000 students is in full effect after 1200. The fact is the Bloomington youth system, the Bloomington coaches and their off-season workouts are all inferior to the Lake conference programs. They just aren't as serious about football.

Couldn't find much but there were a bunch of articles in the tribune that you'd have to pay for now that they're in the archive. Wayzata paid Owatonna, Eden Prairie paid Washburn and Edina paid Chanhassen. They also used to travel far out of state until that was disallowed by the MSHSL due to the poor schools who were jealous.
http://www.chanvillager.com/news/sports/what-was-really-behind-that-football-game-against-edina/article_33f3c795-93f1-59c6-ab43-26745524e6a7.html
It was a few years ago, since then the Lake conference has made deals with the South Suburban and Northwestern Suburban to get some games in exchange for not joining their conferences and destroying them more often. Wayzata has just had to settle for fewer regular season games--7 this year.
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1. The Bloomington schools are not in the class with Wayzata and EP (6A). They are both in 5A. Kennedy will likely be 4A the next time they restructure.
2. Demographically speaking, the Bloomington schools are more similar to Richfield, South St. Paul, Henry Sibley, St. Louis Park, etc. than they are the Suburban schools.
3. The Bloomington coaches are no worse than any coaches they coach against. They have succeeded at other places. In fact one of them has taken a couple of teams at a different school to the PrepBowl. There's an old coaching saying, "It's not your X's and O's, it's your Jimmy's and Joe's." H.S. coaches play the hands they're dealt and have no control over that.
4. Maxy, you are right about at least one of the schools paying for an opponent, and it wasn't the one with the article link. It was not a percentage of the gate; it was a flat fee.
 

In 1960, the average age of a PERSON in Bloomington was 19. In 2010, it was 42. There ya go.
 



Bob_Loblaw said:
While I agree that it is much more a problem of the Bloomington school's having bad programs (youth all the way on up). I don't see how the law of diminishing returns. I don't think at any point it would hurt a football program to have more kids.
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Doesn't hurt, but great football players are not evenly distributed in each additional 100 students. Totino-Grace with 800 students beat Edina (2400) who beat Wayzata (3100). Burnsville with 2530 students went 3-6 against schools with between 1500-2100 students.
 

highwayman said:
In 1960, the average age of a PERSON in Bloomington was 19. In 2010, it was 42. There ya go.
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You'd think at some point these 42 year old high school football players would have ran out of eligibility. :cool:
 

AO54 said:
Doesn't hurt, but great football players are not evenly distributed in each additional 100 students. Totino-Grace with 800 students beat Edina (2400) who beat Wayzata (3100). Burnsville with 2530 students went 3-6 against schools with between 1500-2100 students.
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Burnsville and Bloomington....lots of transient population and low income housing. Think there's a correlation between success and lack of it when you compare them to their suburban peers? UNDOUBTEDLY! Burnsville has a bit more success b/c it's like putting the 2 Bloomingtons together.
 

AO54 said:
Doesn't hurt, but great football players are not evenly distributed in each additional 100 students. Totino-Grace with 800 students beat Edina (2400) who beat Wayzata (3100). Burnsville with 2530 students went 3-6 against schools with between 1500-2100 students.
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I hear what you're saying, I just thought I missed something. I thought you were trying to make the point that at some point too many kids will hurt a program. Also, you can't compare the private schools, it's a totally different ball game.
 

supadupafly said:
the whole "let's make sure everyone feels good about themselves, participation trophy nature" of the Minnesota State High School League is the primary problem with high school sports in our state. it doesn't matter whether you are talking about football, basketball, hockey, etc. it has devolved into this silly "we need to make sure no one has to play anyone that is too tough for them mentality" and thus why we so many sections. the only reason their are so many sections is so more teams can artificially make it into the prep bowl. it is ridiculous, imo. a lot of it is driven by small to mid-sized schools, which have far too much say in the whole process as far as i am concerned.
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You're correct. There are more non-metro than metro schools. I believe they should have a say as members though. I wouldn't group hockey into the statement above. It is a premier tournament.
 

OddStack said:
Burnsville and Bloomington....lots of transient population and low income housing. Think there's a correlation between success and lack of it when you compare them to their suburban peers? UNDOUBTEDLY! Burnsville has a bit more success b/c it's like putting the 2 Bloomingtons together.
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This must explain why the southern states have such terrible football players. Tennis, Golf and Football are sports only rich kids can/want to play.
 

AO54 said:
This must explain why the southern states have such terrible football players. Tennis, Golf and Football are sports only rich kids can/want to play.
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In this state, look at inner-city and 1st ring suburbs that aren't affluent (Edina). They are generally poor football programs. Some have moderate success because they get to play against their peers. That's not the case with the teams mentioned.
 


OddStack said:
In this state, look at inner-city and 1st ring suburbs that aren't affluent (Edina). They are generally poor football programs. Some have moderate success because they get to play against their peers. That's not the case with the teams mentioned.
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In this state, the kids from the inner-city and 1st ring suburbs prefer playing basketball.
 

AO54 said:
In this state, the kids from the inner-city and 1st ring suburbs prefer playing basketball.
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True!
When you look at schools like Richfield, Kennedy, Roosevelt etc. A very low percentage of their student body participates in athletics. As we know football is a numbers sport; thus, that's why some of those communities struggle.

The number of students doesn't tell the whole story! When a school is, let's say 1450ish and there are 200ish students learning english, that doesn't give you a true picture of the number of football players available. By comparison, look at a truly suburban school where there's a handful of English Language Learners and generally 25% more students.
 

Mvgopher said:
You're correct. There are more non-metro than metro schools. I believe they should have a say as members though. I wouldn't group hockey into the statement above. It is a premier tournament.
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Just to reiterate, virtually all the changes in football have made it easier for the larger schools to get to the state tournament, not the smaller ones. When I played back when the lowest 11-man class was called Class C, there were usually 9 or 10 teams in each section. Now it is 8. Not a whole of change there. Also, there are still a few sections in 9-man in which teams don't make the playoffs.
 

GophersInIowa said:
Just to reiterate, virtually all the changes in football have made it easier for the larger schools to get to the state tournament, not the smaller ones. When I played back when the lowest 11-man class was called Class C, there were usually 9 or 10 teams in each section. Now it is 8. Not a whole of change there. Also, there are still a few sections in 9-man in which teams don't make the playoffs.
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Agreed!
6A=everybody qualifies AND win 2 games to get to state.
5A= everybody qualifies AND some sections with only 6 teams. One six team section had two winless teams and another with one win.
As you say there are small towns where teams are left out.
 

With enrollment being a primary factor, the top 32 schools were put into "super class." This was supposed to create more equity in terms of enrollment. Largest 3200 students (EP, Wayzata) smallest 1650 students. (mounds View)

Does less teams really make it easier to get to state? Ask Edina, Eden Prairie, Wayzata, and Minnetonka all in the same section or does it create the best teams at state? (Remember sections cross over after first game)

Socio-economics is a larger factor than enrollment in my opinion. Look at the current QRF rankings in 6A. When is the last time a largest class state champion has played regular season on artificial turf?
 

OddStack said:
In this state, look at inner-city and 1st ring suburbs that aren't affluent (Edina). They are generally poor football programs. Some have moderate success because they get to play against their peers. That's not the case with the teams mentioned.
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it has nothing to do with being either city or first ring suburb. geographic location has nothing to do with it. the REAL ROOT of the problem in this state is that they still allow open enrollment. which i find to be silly, unnecessary and extremely harmful to city and first ring public schools. all it does is take some of the best athletes and all-around people out of these neighborhoods and the local schools and subsidizes the movement of them across the metro to these football and basketball factory schools like eden prairie, hopkins, wayzata, totino-grace, minnetonka, b-s-m, etc.

meanwhile the city and first ring public high schools are fighting against a vicious "catch 22" of open enrollment where their students (i.e. state funding) are in essence stolen from them by state sanctioned open enrollment policy and in turn they get less funding over all to run the school because their enrollments go down. and in turn they have less money to pay quality football and basketball coaches, less money to encourage kids to play football and basketball and stay with their neighborhood school. all the while some suburbanites sit around complaining about the state of city and first ring public high schools and their sports teams while they are actually condoning their "feet being cut out from under them" through current funding and enrollment policy.

you want to know what really hurt city and first ring suburb football and basketball in the last 15 years? it is not all just wanted some of you noted above. OPEN ENROLLMENT is the real culprit. it should be done away with and is no longer needed. it is bad for the majority of non-mcmansion, non-bedroom suburb public high schools in the state.
 

OddStack said:
Agreed!
6A=everybody qualifies AND win 2 games to get to state.
5A= everybody qualifies AND some sections with only 6 teams. One six team section had two winless teams and another with one win.
As you say there are small towns where teams are left out.
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There are only three teams in the state that don't make the playoffs. Those are in 9man. All 1-3A classes have have 6-8 teams in each section. Classes 4-5A have 6 teams ineach section. 6A has 4, 8 team sections. In all, 23 of 48 sections not counting 6A, have 6 teams. Adding the new class has cut down on the number of teams that play three games in 1 1/2 weeks over MEA. It also eliminates many of the 1v8 and 2v7 match-ups that are no fun for anyone involved. Add in the concussion issues and this was all wise by the MSHSL.
 

It is interesting to look back and see that Bloomington once had 3 high schools, Edina had 2 high schools, Hopkins had 2 high schools, Robbinsdale had 3 high schools, White Bear Lake had 2 high schools, and Roseville had 2 high schools. Golden Valley used to have their own high school. Did I forget any?

Go Gophers !!!!!!!!!
 

OddStack said:
True!
When you look at schools like Richfield, Kennedy, Roosevelt etc. A very low percentage of their student body participates in athletics. As we know football is a numbers sport; thus, that's why some of those communities struggle.

The number of students doesn't tell the whole story! When a school is, let's say 1450ish and there are 200ish students learning english, that doesn't give you a true picture of the number of football players available. By comparison, look at a truly suburban school where there's a handful of English Language Learners and generally 25% more students.
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A very good example of this is Park Center. Back in the late 80's, early 90's when I played, Park Center was a major athletic school. Fast forward to today, and I think they've had to drop to 4A for football based on income and participation. They're still a big school (though the district going from 2 to 3 high schools has changed that a bit) but they're relatively poor demographically.
 

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