Why does everyone make grades now?

[fmlizard]

I remember when academic ineligibility was a big part of college sports when I was an 80s kid. Prop 48. 5th year prep schools. Jucos. It was common for teams to lose a key player to class attendance, grades, low test scores, or other academic performance.

I can't remember the last time the Gophers lost a key player in a major sport to academics or we lost a recruit due to inability to qualify academically. This is great and could obviously be attributed to improved academic support and recruiting more academically inclined players.

However, it seems to be happening everywhere. I can't recall the last time I read a headline that a notable athlete in a major NCAA sport was ineligible due to academics, or wasn't able to get recruited because their grades were so bad.

Why do we think this is?

• Are student-athletes better prepared for college?
• Are schools doing better at supporting student-athletes?
• Are schools hiding athletes with poor academics in flimsy online classes and majors?
• Have standards lowered or rules changed?
• Have transfers helped sweep sketchy academics under the rug?
• Am I just imagining this because the Gophers are going through a good stretch in the classroom?

 

[50PoundHead]

Very good questions/observations. One angle is that with early entry into the pro leagues--especially in basketball--a lot of top-tier guys can just coast academically until they declare for the draft.

There is probably much more support for athletes academically than in earlier eras and more monitoring by the academic side of the equation in the wake of things like the Gangelhoff scandal. Once upon a time, the University of Minnesota had General College, which--in many, but not all cases--was a landing ground for those with academic issues. I dated a woman who attended General College and she was no dummy (she was studying to be a paralegal), but I think General College was less demanding than the College of Liberal Arts.

I do remember Sid Hartman going on-and-on about how the University wasn't sheltering possible academic casualties. His main gripe is that Michigan had a sports management program and we did not and that was putting a lot of players' eligibility in jeopardy. I think some schools find the path of least academic resistance for players with academic gaps. I recall Jim Tressel teaching a course in "football" at Ohio State. I imagine the essay question on the final test was "Compare and/or Contrast the Veer Offense with the Pro Set."

 

[Pompous Elitist]

Why do we think this is?

• Are student-athletes better prepared for college?
• Are schools doing better at supporting student-athletes?
• Are schools hiding athletes with poor academics in flimsy online classes and majors?
• Have standards lowered or rules changed?
• Have transfers helped sweep sketchy academics under the rug?
• Am I just imagining this because the Gophers are going through a good stretch in the classroom?

I’d guess some combination of these two factors. I’m aware of controversial efforts to increase promotion, graduation rates at the high school level even if the students are not ready/qualified by traditional or objective standards. I’d guess but cannot prove students at university are similarly given every opportunity to turn in late or missing assignments, re-take quizzes/exams, or may be graded on standards that might be foreign to old-timers. These days the tutors, mentors, circling eligibility staff have to make it ridiculously easy for even the most unfocused student to stay on track.

 

[mngg11]

One thing I've noticed is that schools either have more resources or have been pushed to create alternative learning opportunities with their resources at hand. There are more alternative learning opportunities available to "at risk" kids (poverty, neglect, abuse) than ever, and schools are identifying at risk kids at a younger age so they can funnel them into better/more appropriate classroom settings at a younger age so they have a better chance to succeed or at least graduate. The only ones who typically don't succeed in this day and age are the ones who are have zero supports outside of school and are super antagonistic towards the efforts to help them in school. I don't think you typically find those kids being amongst the future college athlete population. I do think there's a lot of pressure at the government level to have a higher graduation rate and that's translated into funding, but I don't know enough to corroborate that. Having worked in a school in a non educational capacity, it's a lot different than when I graduated in 2003 in a lot of really cool ways and in some head scratching ways.

 

[50PoundHead]

I’d guess some combination of these two factors. I’m aware of controversial efforts to increase promotion, graduation rates at the high school level even if the students are not ready/qualified by traditional or objective standards. I’d guess but cannot prove students at university are similarly given every opportunity to turn in late or missing assignments, re-take quizzes/exams, or may be graded on standards that might be foreign to old-timers. These days the tutors, mentors, circling eligibility staff have to make it ridiculously easy for even the most unfocused student to stay on track.

Your response made me think of something. I'm not an educator, but I have involved at an arm's-length level with education policy/funding as a lobbyist. Back in the late-1990s, the state was trying to develop and implement new graduation standards in an effort known as the Profiles of Learning. The goal was to take X number of standards and give students the opportunity to meet the standards in the setting that best complemented the students' various learning styles and academic insterests. For instance (and this is still going on to some extent), a student could learn chemistry in an agriculture-related class because there is a lot of chemistry involved in successful agriculture and ag teachers are required to take as much--and often more--chemsitry than a secondary-level science teacher.

The Profiles met with stiff resistance, but one of the final nails in the coffin was supplied by the NCAA because they wouldn't recognize some students' credits due to vague description of the classes. There was an instance where a student in the Northern suburbs who was being fairly heavily recruited was deemed a non-predictor (or whatever the term was then) because he had taken a course entitled "Advanced Math Concepts" or something like that (it might have been "Applied Math Concepts") and the NCAA said "We don't know what that is." They would accept something like Algebra II or Pre-Calculus, but even after the school sat down with the NCAA and showed them the syllabus and the course expectations, the NCAA replied with a flat "No." I can't remember the student or the sport, but you hardly hear of any academic issues for incoming players anymore, especially issues like this.

 

[Pompous Elitist]

There was an instance where a student in the Northern suburbs who was being fairly heavily recruited was deemed a non-predictor (or whatever the term was then) because he had taken a course entitled "Advanced Math Concepts" or something like that (it might have been "Applied Math Concepts") and the NCAA said "We don't know what that is." They would accept something like Algebra II or Pre-Calculus, but even after the school sat down with the NCAA and showed them the syllabus and the course expectations, the NCAA replied with a flat "No." I can't remember the student or the sport, but you hardly hear of any academic issues for incoming players anymore, especially issues like this.

Needlessly complicated as so many things are and the reasons for that are probably too many committees, cooks in the kitchen, and yep, lobbyists . If only there were standardized tests that demonstrated students’ ability to perform at a college level, and even more predictive of performance than GPA. Does such a thing exist.

 

[A_Slab_of_Bacon]

I still hear about guys not making grades at other schools...

 

[short ornery norwegian]

I think there is more tutoring and assistance available now than in the past.

just went to the U of MN website. Under the Athletic Department, I found 18 positions listed as having something to do with Academics, including

Director of Academic Center
Senior Associate Director/Director of Football
Associate Director- Academics
2 Assistant Directors
Senior Academic Counselor
2 Academic Counselors
Senior Learning Specialist
2 Learning Specialists
Senior Tutor Coordinator
Tutor Coordinator
Data Analyst
Administrative Assistant
Academic Support Intern
2 Football Academic Interns

with all of that help available, you really have to be trying - or not trying - to flunk out of school. I believe that athletes remain eligible as long as they have what amounts to a C- grade average.

 

[50PoundHead]

Needlessly complicated as so many things are and the reasons for that are probably too many committees, cooks in the kitchen, and yep, lobbyists . If only there were standardized tests that demonstrated students’ ability to perform at a college level, and even more predictive of performance than GPA. Does such a thing exist.

I think the ACT is generally viewed as the benchmark, but not all colleges are requiring test scores for admittance anymore. SAT is also used, but ACT has generally been deemed more accessible. High school graduation standards largely vary by school district although there are some state requirements that certain subjects be taught. If a school wants a kid to "walk," they will find a way to allow that to happen. Same with the converse and I know of school districts who have refused to allow a student to graduate on time because of a failed class (usually through PSEO) or considerable absenteeism/truancy.

There have been calls to develop and implement a standardized statewide graduation test in Minnesota (though not recently) but it has become a non-starter because both sides of the political spectrum dislike the idea. On the left, they fear the graduation level will drop precipitously, mostly within communities of color. On the right, they see it as the first step toward the establishment of a state-mandated curriculum tied to the test.

 

[Pompous Elitist]

I think the ACT is generally viewed as the benchmark, but not all colleges are requiring test scores for admittance anymore. SAT is also used, but ACT has generally been deemed more accessible. High school graduation standards largely vary by school district although there are some state requirements that certain subjects be taught. If a school wants a kid to "walk," they will find a way to allow that to happen. Same with the converse and I know of school districts who have refused to allow a student to graduate on time because of a failed class (usually through PSEO) or considerable absenteeism/truancy.

There have been calls to develop and implement a standardized statewide graduation test in Minnesota (though not recently) but it has become a non-starter because both sides of the political spectrum dislike the idea. On the left, they fear the graduation level will drop precipitously, mostly within communities of color. On the right, they see it as the first step toward the establishment of a state-mandated curriculum tied to the test.

My understanding is dozens of states had implemented baseline mastery graduation tests but they’ve dropped off one by one over the years as the results were, shall we say….not good. It turned out it was still difficult to motivate some kids even with that stick. So the goalposts move. MN is one of those AFAIK? CA is another, but the state university system still requires an NCAA-like hodgepodge high school class algorithm that is, again, IMO a little overly complicated. Something like 60% of California grads don’t qualify to go to UC or CSU schools out of the chute because they’re missing one or more class OR didn’t get the required C grade (D does not stand for doctor in CA). And, let’s be honest, going tangential maybe the degree requirements for certain jobs or even professional school have gone a little overboard. Should a medical doctor or dentist, for example, be required to complete a 4 year degree first. Maybe shorter vocational education would be kinder. Witnessing the recent demonstrations, is critical thinking occurring at university. Liberal arts.

Maybe that’s no longer a thing either. Always changing, the rules.

 

[Word]

My understanding is dozens of states had implemented baseline mastery graduation tests but they’ve dropped off one by one over the years as the results were, shall we say….not good. It turned out it was still difficult to motivate some kids even with that stick. So the goalposts move. MN is one of those AFAIK? CA is another, but the state university system still requires an NCAA-like hodgepodge high school class algorithm that is, again, IMO a little overly complicated. Something like 60% of California grads don’t qualify to go to UC or CSU schools out of the chute because they’re missing one or more class OR didn’t get the required C grade (D does not stand for doctor in CA). And, let’s be honest, going tangential maybe the degree requirements for certain jobs or even professional school have gone a little overboard. Should a medical doctor or dentist, for example, be required to complete a 4 year degree first. Maybe shorter vocational education would be kinder. Witnessing the recent demonstrations, is critical thinking occurring at university. Liberal arts.

Maybe that’s no longer a thing either. Always changing, the rules.

Minnesota public high schools give the MCA tests in math, English, and science (biology). Many (most?) school districts also "require" students to take the ACT and administer it on a regular school day for free.

 

[Classof 66]

I remember when academic ineligibility was a big part of college sports when I was an 80s kid. Prop 48. 5th year prep schools. Jucos. It was common for teams to lose a key player to class attendance, grades, low test scores, or other academic performance.

I can't remember the last time the Gophers lost a key player in a major sport to academics or we lost a recruit due to inability to qualify academically. This is great and could obviously be attributed to improved academic support and recruiting more academically inclined players.

However, it seems to be happening everywhere. I can't recall the last time I read a headline that a notable athlete in a major NCAA sport was ineligible due to academics, or wasn't able to get recruited because their grades were so bad.

Why do we think this is?

• Are student-athletes better prepared for college?
• Are schools doing better at supporting student-athletes?
• Are schools hiding athletes with poor academics in flimsy online classes and majors?
• Have standards lowered or rules changed?
• Have transfers helped sweep sketchy academics under the rug?
• Am I just imagining this because the Gophers are going through a good stretch in the classroom?

No, Yes, Yes. Yes, Yes, No.

#4 is the biggest yes. I think they get an automatic pass for attendance - and attendance is not required or checked.

 

[hungan1]

I remember when academic ineligibility was a big part of college sports when I was an 80s kid. Prop 48. 5th year prep schools. Jucos. It was common for teams to lose a key player to class attendance, grades, low test scores, or other academic performance.

I can't remember the last time the Gophers lost a key player in a major sport to academics or we lost a recruit due to inability to qualify academically. This is great and could obviously be attributed to improved academic support and recruiting more academically inclined players.

However, it seems to be happening everywhere. I can't recall the last time I read a headline that a notable athlete in a major NCAA sport was ineligible due to academics, or wasn't able to get recruited because their grades were so bad.

Why do we think this is?

• Are student-athletes better prepared for college?
• Are schools doing better at supporting student-athletes?
• Are schools hiding athletes with poor academics in flimsy online classes and majors?
• Have standards lowered or rules changed?
• Have transfers helped sweep sketchy academics under the rug?
• Am I just imagining this because the Gophers are going through a good stretch in the classroom?

All of the above? More disguised basket-weaving classes? Some athletes come to college not to play skool.

 

[denguegopher]

Probably a lot of things. Maybe, but I doubt it, schools are better at determining/predicting who will succeed in college. I know that some will not like this but I think that it is possible that students are better prepared for college. My daughter just graduated from high school (2023) and her math was more advanced than what I took in Rochester during the 1970's. I know that it's now believed, by many, that our public schools are in the toilet, but I'm not sure.

 

[50PoundHead]

My understanding is dozens of states had implemented baseline mastery graduation tests but they’ve dropped off one by one over the years as the results were, shall we say….not good. It turned out it was still difficult to motivate some kids even with that stick. So the goalposts move. MN is one of those AFAIK? CA is another, but the state university system still requires an NCAA-like hodgepodge high school class algorithm that is, again, IMO a little overly complicated. Something like 60% of California grads don’t qualify to go to UC or CSU schools out of the chute because they’re missing one or more class OR didn’t get the required C grade (D does not stand for doctor in CA). And, let’s be honest, going tangential maybe the degree requirements for certain jobs or even professional school have gone a little overboard. Should a medical doctor or dentist, for example, be required to complete a 4 year degree first. Maybe shorter vocational education would be kinder. Witnessing the recent demonstrations, is critical thinking occurring at university. Liberal arts.

Maybe that’s no longer a thing either. Always changing, the rules.

There were efforts to establish a graduation test with a cut score in Minnesota I think during the Pawlenty administration or in the wake of the Florida edcuation reforms enacted under Jeb Bush (but it all runs together for me at my advanced age). There was also an Algebra II requirement that has since been dropped which was done in a bipartisan manner.

California is an interesting case. The California Junior College system used to be the jewel of the education world. It was free to California residents and all credits transferred if and when a student was admitted to a UC system college to earn their 4-year degree. Junior Colleges and Community Colleges used to be more rigorous in Minnesota, but they've become lost somehow in the shuffle.

Word is corect. School districts are required to administer the MCA tests annually, but parents can opt their kids out of taking the tests and that is happening with greater regularity, so the scores don't mean that much. That said, the scores come in low enough that public education takes a PR beating.

denguegopher makes a good point. My step-grandson is a pretty smart kid and he's in an inner ring suburban high school in the Western Suburbs. His science and math curriculum is much more difficult than what I experienced in a rural high school in the late-1960s/early-1970s. I haven't seen the language arts or social studies curriculum he digests, so I can't comment on that.

 

[Pompous Elitist]

There were efforts to establish a graduation test with a cut score in Minnesota I think during the Pawlenty administration or in the wake of the Florida edcuation reforms enacted under Jeb Bush (but it all runs together for me at my advanced age). There was also an Algebra II requirement that has since been dropped which was done in a bipartisan manner.

Thanks for that. I am clearly far from an expert in this area (but have an invested interest) and found this on the aborted enforcement of the exit exam. The grad test was difficult enough it was purported to equate to a 22 on the ACT, a score significantly higher than a certain highly successful, driven, and well-spoken social studies teacher we know. Constructing an exit exam difficult enough to fail 50-60% of takers seems like a bad idea. Or, maybe to some extent the current educational model is trying to put square pegs into round holes.

Few would likely mourn an end to Minnesota's high-school exit tests - MinnPost

The intent — to put pressure on public schools to try harder with struggling students — was laudable. But ultimately the tests are political mechanisms, not academic ones.

www.minnpost.com

California is an interesting case. The California Junior College system used to be the jewel of the education world. It was free to California residents and all credits transferred if and when a student was admitted to a UC system college to earn their 4-year degree. Junior Colleges and Community Colleges used to be more rigorous in Minnesota, but they've become lost somehow in the shuffle.

From what I understand it is still very inexpensive, free for many.

Word is corect. School districts are required to administer the MCA tests annually, but parents can opt their kids out of taking the tests and that is happening with greater regularity, so the scores don't mean that much. That said, the scores come in low enough that public education takes a PR beating.

I’ve heard word of major attendance issues driving at least part of this this? The pandemic effect. Part of it behavioral conditioning, but I’d guess a non-zero percentage driven by kids staying home due to illness protocols or maybe too often parental (irrational) fear of illness. MN has an (awesomely) short school year compared to eg CA but that probably magnifies issue from missing school.

denguegopher makes a good point. My step-grandson is a pretty smart kid and he's in an inner ring suburban high school in the Western Suburbs. His science and math curriculum is much more difficult than what I experienced in a rural high school in the late-1960s/early-1970s. I haven't seen the language arts or social studies curriculum he digests, so I can't comment on that.

There are definitely opportunities for advanced curriculum classes, extensive college credits before graduation in my area schools, should a student want to do that or qualify for that.

 

[Holy Man]

There were efforts to establish a graduation test with a cut score in Minnesota I think during the Pawlenty administration or in the wake of the Florida edcuation reforms enacted under Jeb Bush (but it all runs together for me at my advanced age). There was also an Algebra II requirement that has since been dropped which was done in a bipartisan manner.

California is an interesting case. The California Junior College system used to be the jewel of the education world. It was free to California residents and all credits transferred if and when a student was admitted to a UC system college to earn their 4-year degree. Junior Colleges and Community Colleges used to be more rigorous in Minnesota, but they've become lost somehow in the shuffle.

Word is corect. School districts are required to administer the MCA tests annually, but parents can opt their kids out of taking the tests and that is happening with greater regularity, so the scores don't mean that much. That said, the scores come in low enough that public education takes a PR beating.

denguegopher makes a good point. My step-grandson is a pretty smart kid and he's in an inner ring suburban high school in the Western Suburbs. His science and math curriculum is much more difficult than what I experienced in a rural high school in the late-1960s/early-1970s. I haven't seen the language arts or social studies curriculum he digests, so I can't comment on that.

I think the opportunities for good education are there and taken advantage of by motivated students who probably get better than we had in the 70’s. The big difference is expectations and curriculum in the massive middle where most students are. When you see decline in macro numbers that’s where it’s happening, not in AP or honors classes.

I’ve always thought that one of the best measures of schools is how their students of middle of the bell curve ability perform. Almost all smart kids will do well. Kids who are not gifted will struggle but the success of the rest is the test of how a school is doing.

 

[MNfootballfan]

I think there is more tutoring and assistance available now than in the past.

just went to the U of MN website. Under the Athletic Department, I found 18 positions listed as having something to do with Academics, including

Director of Academic Center
Senior Associate Director/Director of Football
Associate Director- Academics
2 Assistant Directors
Senior Academic Counselor
2 Academic Counselors
Senior Learning Specialist
2 Learning Specialists
Senior Tutor Coordinator
Tutor Coordinator
Data Analyst
Administrative Assistant
Academic Support Intern
2 Football Academic Interns

with all of that help available, you really have to be trying - or not trying - to flunk out of school. I believe that athletes remain eligible as long as they have what amounts to a C- grade average.

I have no knowledge but guessing I think it is a combination of everything. Schools/coaches know a player is much more effective if they are eligible to play in the games which makes them put resources in to tutors and support staff.

Also, guessing the transfer portal plays a major role. Coaches know the kids that won't be making the grades and can easily tell them to hit the portal because you aren't going to play here.

 

[Word]

There are definitely opportunities for advanced curriculum classes, extensive college credits before graduation in my area schools, should a student want to do that or qualify for that.

Lots of kids (many in the "middle") are taking multiple AP or college-in-the-schools courses while in high school. Lots of kids entering college with anywhere from a semester to two full years worth of college already done. I think this has hurt community college enrollment.

 

[Word]

Another thing that has maybe changed in the last 20 years is that it seems that all the athletes stick around for the summer and take classes. You hear of some graduating in 3 years because of all the summer classes they take. Maybe this helps keep some of them on track to graduate.

 

[UMwolverine]

Retired college professor here. There's a simple answer: online courses.
I live in OKC and listen to some of the local sports radio shows. One of them has coach Pat Jones as a regular commentator.
A few years ago when the topic of online classes came up, Jones said something along the lines of "if they had online classes back then, we'd have been able to get Dexter PhD," referring to Dexter Manley who was illiterate but able to stay academically eligible throughout his college career.
Now he said it in jest, but there was some truth behind it.

 

[Ewert86PC]

Q: Why do we do CFB grades now?

A: Gambling on claiming "I'm Smartest First" trophy.

 

[Ski-UT-Mah]

Well Wisconsin lost out on Caleb Williams because he “didn’t qualify academically”. What a load I heard on the radio

 

[Word]

Retired college professor here. There's a simple answer: online courses.
I live in OKC and listen to some of the local sports radio shows. One of them has coach Pat Jones as a regular commentator.
A few years ago when the topic of online classes came up, Jones said something along the lines of "if they had online classes back then, we'd have been able to get Dexter PhD," referring to Dexter Manley who was illiterate but able to stay academically eligible throughout his college career.
Now he said it in jest, but there was some truth behind it.

That may be partially true, but I think we were starting to already see more college athletes graduating before the explosion of online courses.

 

[LakevilleBro]

Angel Reese, the LSU basketball player, was rumored to have a sub 2.0 GPA, and she still played.

 

[mngg11]

Angel Reese, the LSU basketball player, was rumored to have a sub 2.0 GPA, and she still played.

She didn't come to play school

 

[WoodburyTim]

My neighbor is an inner school high school teacher. Way les than than 50% of the kids bothered to login at all during COVID but it looked better to pass everyone. Same reason why all the college students are “making the grade.”

Pretty simple

 

[60's Guy]

Angel Reese, the LSU basketball player, was rumored to have a sub 2.0 GPA, and she still played.

It's not hard to imagine that somebody started a nasty rumor about Angel's grades.
Or? Was her absence from the team mid year due to course work neglect?
What I think I have observed...she ain't dumb.

 

[60's Guy]

I think standards are probably different. I'm pretty positive confrontation is avoided at all costs by the majority....so it is just easier to pass people.
On the flip side: How could everybody not be smarter? Everybody is on their phone 24/7.
It is a computer with answers to anything...people are constantly practicing reading and writing.
Vastly different world today.
Kids are certainly more worldly aware today than before computers.

 

[UMwolverine]

Well Wisconsin lost out on Caleb Williams because he “didn’t qualify academically”. What a load I heard on the radio

I suspect what is happening at Wisconsin is similar to what happens at Michigan. There are the same entrance requirements as other schools. The issue is  transfer credits. Gen Ed courses transfer without problem. The issue comes with upper level Major courses. Such courses can easily transfer if they're counted as electives.
The difficulty comes when they need to be used to stand in as a course for the major. Some degree programs get super fussy about such transfer credits and can disallow them for various reasons.
When disallowed it puts the student behind. He might have to retake essentially the same class just to be on track to graduate.