Why all the disappointment?

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MplsGopher said:
Things were not going amazing towards the end of when they were both still playing.

I think it would've been: limp into one of the last teams in, and an early exit.

Hope that would've still been fired.
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I agree, because outside of 6 or 7 players the rest of team isn't good at basketball at a P5 level.
 

I'm getting behind this but if he was so awesomely plugged in....

Why did we miss on so many Minny recruits while he was here?

He couldn't overcome Pitino's stench?

He wasn't the guy in charge?

Well, those hindrances are out of the way. He's the guy! The Big Man! Numero Uno!.....

So let's hope he can recruit like it.
 

Gene Keady helped out Steve Lavin at St. John's for awhile. I want to say that Jud Heathcote helped out Gonzaga for awhile, too, but maybe not as an actual assistant. These were really retired guys who weren't looking to be head coaches, though (like Beilein, maybe). There are some of these types out there, a la Martelli, that are lesser profile but could lend a steady hand.
 

Johnnyboy18 said:
His classes have been terrible for the last couple of years and you could see that with all of the reaches taken the last couple of years.

He'll put effort in that Pitino didn't. Which accounts for a lot believe it or not. Coaches, players, and families had no respect for Richard.

Two of Richard's years were sabotaged by injuries and lack of depth. His in game coaching was fine when the team was healthy this year. Do you think we'd be having this conversation if Gabe and Liam didn't get injured this year? Or if Lynch and other injuries didn't happen 2 or 3 years ago? No, the team had talent in the starters but once injuries happen to those players recruiting really matters. Mutaf, Greenlee, and Freeman had no business being on a Big Ten roster.
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So the team now has talent? I thought you were just arguing that they didn't because Pitino's classes were horrible and Johnson is now going to bring in that talent?

Minnesota's classes the last three seasons:
2020 - 9th in the B1G, 51st overall
2019 - 4th in the B1G, 37th overall
2018 - 8th in the B1G, 45th overall

Pretty amazing for a bottom feeder B1G program with a coach that gives no effort.

Injuries happen every season. Good coaches coach through them. This isn't an argument to keep Pitino who needed to be fired.

But to suggest an assistant that was on Pitino's staff for 5 years, with less experience than Pitino, is just going roll in here and land top 30 classes every year, and that they'll automatically win because of it, is pretty amazing.

Some of the most talented rosters in the country didn't make the tournament this season.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
So the team now has talent? I thought you were just arguing that they didn't because Pitino's classes were horrible and Johnson is now going to bring in that talent?

Minnesota's classes the last three seasons:
2020 - 9th in the B1G, 51st overall
2019 - 4th in the B1G, 37th overall
2018 - 8th in the B1G, 45th overall

Pretty amazing for a bottom feeder B1G program with a coach that gives no effort.

Injuries happen every season. Good coaches coach through them. This isn't an argument to keep Pitino who needed to be fired.

But to suggest an assistant that was on Pitino's staff for 5 years, with less experience than Pitino, is just going roll in here and land top 30 classes every year, and that they'll automatically win because of it, is pretty amazing.

Some of the most talented rosters in the country didn't make the tournament this season.
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It's funny that you're arguing the exact opposite way you do on the football board.

The team had talent from 1-7. After that it was a colossal drop off and it was apparent how much the team played Carr.

I'm never going to agree that Pitino's in game coaching is why he didn't succeed. He didn't succeed because he didn't recruit/develop good enough players to win consistently.
 


dlnavra said:
I thought his press conference was fine. I'm one of many on here who thought it would a big name hire. That's not how it turned out, but I think Ben Johnson did as well as many would do yesterday. Sarcasm not intended, he nor most would pull out their whiteboard and describe their plan, or even without the whiteboard. The questions were answered similarly IMO to how most would answer them, and he looked people in the eyes, was at ease, etc. I didn't see a nervous HC.

I understand people being dumbfounded by the hire, but it's done and interesting at this point, is how does he assemble his staff, leverage the portal, and get after the prep recruits.
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Let me first say that I'm not one of those people who thinks the first press conference means anything. I just thought he came off really nervous and I didn't want to run through a wall for him when it was over. That's totally okay too, but the difference between him and PJ after the first press conference was pretty glaring (IMO).

As far as his answers, I get that it's impossible to be specific. I just didn't like the way in which he was vague. I think the easy way to hit a homerun with those questions in today's NCAA basketball is to shoehorn in the phrases "space the floor" and "position-less".
Johnnyboy18 said:
His classes have been terrible for the last couple of years and you could see that with all of the reaches taken the last couple of years.

He'll put effort in that Pitino didn't. Which accounts for a lot believe it or not. Coaches, players, and families had no respect for Richard.

Two of Richard's years were sabotaged by injuries and lack of depth. His in game coaching was fine when the team was healthy this year. Do you think we'd be having this conversation if Gabe and Liam didn't get injured this year? Or if Lynch and other injuries didn't happen 2 or 3 years ago? No, the team had talent in the starters but once injuries happen to those players recruiting really matters. Mutaf, Greenlee, and Freeman had no business being on a Big Ten roster.
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No, it wasn't.

Injuries happen to every team. We have 8 years of data on Pitino. Either he isn't a good coach or he is the unluckiest human being on the planet, either way, good riddance.
 

Johnnyboy18 said:
It's funny that you're arguing the exact opposite way you do on the football board.

The team had talent from 1-7. After that it was a colossal drop off and it was apparent how much the team played Carr.

I'm never going to agree that Pitino's in game coaching is why he didn't succeed. He didn't succeed because he didn't recruit/develop good enough players to win consistently.
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Pitino never developed a bench after 1-7. During scrub time some of those players appeared to have ability, but he'd never play them in situations where others were struggling.

Talent matters in basketball, but it still matters far more in football. In football the most talented teams almost always win. The NCAA tournament proves every year that the most talented team does not always win.

It's almost always a combination of coaching, experience, and talent. Purdue and Wisconsin finish in the top 4 or 5 most years in the B1G. They recruit around our level, or even lower.

Look at who's played in the NCAA championship the last several years. Virginia, Texas Tech, Villanova, Gonzaga, Wisconsin. Those teams got there due to good coaching over talent.
 

Look - there is no guarantee that a 'big name' coach would have come in here and transformed the program.

And outside of the real basketball junkies, how many casual or lapsed fans really know Craig Smith from Joe Blow?

with Johnson, the Gophers can promote the "he's one of us" angle to try and sell tickets. being Minnesotans, a lot of fans (not on Gopher Hole) will be rooting for the local guy to make it.

bottom line - it's not like Coyle is taking a top-20 program and turning it over to Elmer Fudd. He is taking a program that finished 13th out of 14 teams in the B1G and turning it over to a guy who wants to be here and has good relationships with HS and AAU coaches in the state.

You would think from the comments on GH that the U let John Wooden go and replaced him with a junior-high coach from Woodbury.

so here is my question - knowing what you know now -
DO YOU WANT PITINO BACK? ...............................................I didn't think so.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
Look - there is no guarantee that a 'big name' coach would have come in here and transformed the program.

And outside of the real basketball junkies, how many casual or lapsed fans really know Craig Smith from Joe Blow?

with Johnson, the Gophers can promote the "he's one of us" angle to try and sell tickets. being Minnesotans, a lot of fans (not on Gopher Hole) will be rooting for the local guy to make it.

bottom line - it's not like Coyle is taking a top-20 program and turning it over to Elmer Fudd. He is taking a program that finished 13th out of 14 teams in the B1G and turning it over to a guy who wants to be here and has good relationships with HS and AAU coaches in the state.

You would think from the comments on GH that the U let John Wooden go and replaced him with a junior-high coach from Woodbury.

so here is my question - knowing what you know now -
DO YOU WANT PITINO BACK? ...............................................I didn't think so.
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I am eternally hopeful that the new coach will work here. I think its reasonable to wonder if they made the right decision when Ben probably would have finished behind RP if they had gone head to head for the New Mexico job. Sounds like he was runner up for Northern Illinois. Id have been more excited if a coach with better credentials had come in and made Ben his top assistant as his first hire.
 



GopherDude said:
Couldn't agree more!

Half the threads from today are so unbelievably negative & whinny. & based on what I'm seeing on social media (and just by the general tone of the negative posts on GH - haha), I'm assuming most (not all) of the whinners are in the 65+ demographic. "Wahhhhh, I'm a boomer and I always get my way, why didn't we hire Craig Smith? Minnesota hired Johnson only because he's a minority, he's not qualified, harumph, I'm cancelling my season tickets and done supporting my favorite team because of this, can't wait for the next coach in 3-5 years"....

Seriously, it's so annoying for the rest of us actual fans that are excited to support our new head coach who 1. actually played basketball at a high level 2. has 17 years of experience as an assistant college basketball coach 3. was born and raised in Minnesota, played for the Gophers and quite obviously has the drive & determination to bring the basketball program to new heights (this is especially clear when compared to Tubby or Pitino) 4. clearly is a above average to excellent recruiter 5. Had an incredible first press conference 6. If he is successful, will probably end up at Minnesota for decades since it's his true dream job and 7. everyone with actual basketball knowledge (former players, coaches, insiders, etc.) are praising the hire

There's so many more positives to this hire than negatives, but at least half the posts today seem to be negative. What's the worst thing that happens? We have a .360 Big Ten win percentage during Johnson's tenure, whiff on almost every major in-state recruit and only make the tournament a quarter of the time?..... Oh wait......

All the complainers about this hire are the same people that cried about the Fleck hire because they didn't like his energy, enthusiasm and vigor!

Go to bed boomers! The rest of us want to celebrate this excellent hire without your constant blabbering & moaning!!
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Using stereotypes and assumptions is not really an effective way of getting your point across.

Step back and try to look at it from another perspective. We have just lived through the history of a young, inexperienced coach trying to learn on the job. For various reasons, that did not work. We are in the middle of the NCAA Tournament where many of the rumored "candidates" for the Gopher job have teams playing. People get to see actual playing styles and the success or failure of most of these "candidates". GH is full of discussions of who people think may be the best candidate. Of course, we all know very little about the real situation, but we like to act like we do... And in the middle of all this hype, we hear that the U has hired a young assistant coach with absolutely no experience as a Head Coach. Of course it is going to be a shock to a large majority of the fans.

It is like we are all waiting on the Vikings to draft one of the top running backs from Alabama, USC, Ohio State, etc in the first round. Then the Vikings announce they drafted a running back from Bowling Green that went to high school in Minnesota. The first reaction is WTF! What idiots! It has nothing to do with that RB or even Ben Johnson personally. It is a reaction based upon expectation. It is not hate for the person that was selected.

We all want the U to have a competitive basketball team and for our coach, Ben Johnson to succeed. You just give some of fans time to get over the shock and not take it personal.

Ski-U-Mah
 



alchemy2u said:
We all want the U to have a competitive basketball team and for our coach, Ben Johnson to succeed. You just give some of fans time to get over the shock and not take it personal.

Ski-U-Mah
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OK..... 3,2,1, time is up.

If now doesn't work can you guys give us some sort of timeframe?
 



My first post. Long time reader. I graduated from SD State and moved to Minnesota in the late 70s. My first game I went to in the Barn was against a nationally ranked team. (I think Marquette). Sat in the third deck and felt the goose bumps and hair on my neck stand up. Most exciting game I have been to. Have been a gopher fan ever since. When was the last time you felt that at a gopher game?

I support completely the hiring of Ben Johnson! We could have tried another coach that had name connections. We could have hired a head coach that had done well (and not his unproven assistant). Oh wait, we did all of those things. How did that work out? Instead let’s try something different and hire someone that is young, unproven and support him as he grows into the job. What have we got to lose? Another 15-20 years of mediocrity.

one more thing. I love reading the discussions on this site but it has become so personal over the last year. This is entertaining and when people start calling each other names it is no fun anymore. Follow Holy Mans example and be kinder and more thoughtful.

I am a baby boomer and I like Ben Johnson!
 

Johnnyboy18 said:
It's funny that you're arguing the exact opposite way you do on the football board.

The team had talent from 1-7. After that it was a colossal drop off and it was apparent how much the team played Carr.

I'm never going to agree that Pitino's in game coaching is why he didn't succeed. He didn't succeed because he didn't recruit/develop good enough players to win consistently.
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Practices were a clown fiesta compared to others. Not a gifted teacher.
 

I decided to post nothing once this news broke, as I really hated the decision. The negativity cycle had to stop somewhere so I just stayed out of it. (politics, Covid, ect)

In retrospect, that was good as I am at peace with Ben Johnson. It is clear Eric M. was not coming here, and I was not too fired up about the not so energetic, aging Dutcher.

If Craig Smith turns into the next Mark Few, well then we all lost. The whole thing was pretty much a roll of the dice if the top choices were not realistic.

Who knows, if Ben keeps some of these local guys around and has any coaching ability we will be happier. Clearly RP had to go.
 

builtbadgers said:
Practices were a clown fiesta compared to others. Not a gifted teacher.
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What do you know about Johnson's ability to run a practice? This year really emphasized getting the most out of each one, clearly Pitino failed to prepare the team in second half of season.
 

Gopherjackrabbits said:
We could have hired a head coach that had done well (and not his unproven assistant). Oh wait, we did all of those things. How did that work out?
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Who is your example of a recent-ish failed Gopher coach that reasonably mirrors a Craig Smith hire?

Monson? Disagree it would've been equivalent.

If we were talking Leon Rice from Boise, then I'd agree.
 

MplsGopher said:
Who is your example of a recent-ish failed Gopher coach that reasonably mirrors a Craig Smith hire?

Monson? Disagree it would've been equivalent.

If we were talking Leon Rice from Boise, then I'd agree.
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Craig Smith's closest Gopher equivalent is Jerry Kill except he's younger and healthier. Ben's is Brewster. Hopefully it doesn't work out that way.
 

howeda7 said:
Craig Smith's closest Gopher equivalent is Jerry Kill except he's younger and healthier. Ben's is Brewster. Hopefully it doesn't work out that way.
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"Gopher Nation" has now turned into "Minnesota Dude", dear god I hope this works better than Brewster.
 

GopherBlood666 said:
"Gopher Nation" has now turned into "Minnesota Dude", dear god I hope this works better than Brewster.
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Or Scott Frost at Neb.

That comment about calling people the moment he stepped off the plane .... reminded me so much of something Frost said early after being hired.


Frost has learned that Lincoln, Nebraska is no longer a place where you can just "out talent" the other teams. They don't play in the Big 8 anymore.
 

John Groce, Todd Licklieter, and Archie Miller were all hot names that had won at mid majors but didnt make it work in the Big Ten. I really like Craig Smith but there’s no guarantees with anyone. Same with Gates or Medved. Dutcher has a name tied to the U but really doesn’t have relationships with coaches or players in this area. Who else was really an option? I don’t believe Johnson is any more of a risk than others on this list.
 

bmb5270 said:
John Groce, Todd Licklieter, and Archie Miller were all hot names that had won at mid majors but didnt make it work in the Big Ten. I really like Craig Smith but there’s no guarantees with anyone. Same with Gates or Medved. Dutcher has a name tied to the U but really doesn’t have relationships with coaches or players in this area. Who else was really an option? I don’t believe Johnson is any more of a risk than others on this list.
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I mean he's certainly more of a RISK for sure. You're absolutely right that he could end up on the same level here coaching wise. However if you're talking initial risk based off of experience it isn't really close.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
so here is my question - knowing what you know now -
DO YOU WANT PITINO BACK? ...............................................I didn't think so.
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The problem with that argument is either Pitino staying, or firing him and hiring Johnson, weren't the only two choices and everybody knows it. It's a fact that there were much more qualified and accomplished coaches available and interested (Smith being example 1A), but for whatever reasons they went with Johnson.
 


bmb5270 said:
John Groce, Todd Licklieter, and Archie Miller were all hot names that had won at mid majors but didnt make it work in the Big Ten. I really like Craig Smith but there’s no guarantees with anyone. Same with Gates or Medved. Dutcher has a name tied to the U but really doesn’t have relationships with coaches or players in this area. Who else was really an option? I don’t believe Johnson is any more of a risk than others on this list.
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It's all in what you consider important when you hire a coach. I put value at coaching at the lower levels and rising up. I think the move over from the Asst. chair to the HC chair is really a monumental difference. That being said, it can be done as many have chosen to find the outliers. The fact is winning at a P6 job is hard. There are no guarantees. Coyle obviously trusts Ben with practices, game management, and program management which is great it's his choice to make. I truly believe the only thing that Ben had over Smith was a background recruiting MN. I felt Smith could make that up easier than Ben could with the other things. We will just have to see.
 

MplsGopher said:
Who is your example of a recent-ish failed Gopher coach that reasonably mirrors a Craig Smith hire?

Monson? Disagree it would've been equivalent.

If we were talking Leon Rice from Boise, then I'd agree.
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Chris Holtmann is comparable equivalent the Craig Smith. Won at a head job at a lower level and quit to come back and be an assistant at a higher level. Then got a mid major job and won before being hired at Ohio State.

Painter carries some similarities as well because he worked his way up from a lower division levels and also quit his job, but he was only a HC for one year.
 

bmb5270 said:
John Groce, Todd Licklieter, and Archie Miller were all hot names that had won at mid majors but didnt make it work in the Big Ten. I really like Craig Smith but there’s no guarantees with anyone. Same with Gates or Medved. Dutcher has a name tied to the U but really doesn’t have relationships with coaches or players in this area. Who else was really an option? I don’t believe Johnson is any more of a risk than others on this list.
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There are no guarantees. They all could succeed or flop. But their odds were not all equal coin flips.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Pitino never developed a bench after 1-7. During scrub time some of those players appeared to have ability, but he'd never play them in situations where others were struggling.

Talent matters in basketball, but it still matters far more in football. In football the most talented teams almost always win. The NCAA tournament proves every year that the most talented team does not always win.

It's almost always a combination of coaching, experience, and talent. Purdue and Wisconsin finish in the top 4 or 5 most years in the B1G. They recruit around our level, or even lower.

Look at who's played in the NCAA championship the last several years. Virginia, Texas Tech, Villanova, Gonzaga, Wisconsin. Those teams got there due to good coaching over talent.
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Good post. Pitino certainly recruited some clunkers but, overall, I think his recruited talent was comparable to the bottom half of the conference recruiters. One also has to consider his transfers in here and in that market he did a reasonably good job. I think coaching and particularly player development were bigger problems. Bakary and Hurt certainly were weak recruits but the fact that they weren't any better than they were after 4 years was an absolute disgrace on the player development dimension.

I would also add Iowa to the list of programs that didn't recruit any better than Pitino during his tenure but McCaffrey seemed to understand the types of players that fit within his system better than Pitino did.
 

cjbfbp said:
Good post. Pitino certainly recruited some clunkers but, overall, I think his recruited talent was comparable to the bottom half of the conference recruiters. One also has to consider his transfers in here and in that market he did a reasonably good job. I think coaching and particularly player development were bigger problems. Bakary and Hurt certainly were weak recruits but the fact that they weren't any better than they were after 4 years was an absolute disgrace on the player development dimension.

I would also add Iowa to the list of programs that didn't recruit any better than Pitino during his tenure but McCaffrey seemed to understand the types of players that fit within his system better than Pitino did.
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I'm not a big care about the press conference guy, but I did like Ben saying he wants people to look and say "that's a MN dude". Of course I was equally concerned that he said he'd fit his teams playing style to his players, as I think in college you should honestly do it the other way around for the most part besides some minor tweaks here and there. I just want to see an identity.
 

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