Who will have a better career at their respective school? Fleck or Brohm?

Who will have a better career at their respective school? Fleck or Brohm?

  • Fleck will have a better career at Minnesota

    Votes: 117 78.5%

  • Brohm will have a better career at Purdue

    Votes: 32 21.5%
  • Total voters
    149
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It will be interesting to see which first year coach at their first Big Ten programs will do at their school.
 

I would be very surprised if Fleck doesn't manage to get his **** together here.
Just gotta the "elite-culture-clan" honest for the next few years because he's in over his head at the moment :)
 

I think Fleck will have a better career at MN than Brohm will at Purdue. I would rather have Brohm as our HC tho.


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Spoofin said:
I think Fleck will have a better career at MN than Brohm will at Purdue. I would rather have Brohm as our HC tho.


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Click to expand...


Makes sense...
 



Did PJ change or how did he win 13 games in his last year at WMU? PJ is all about PJ right now. Year zero has to have lost all the seniors. All the talk of better athletes in the future and other teams in the present has to have guys wondering and losing confidence in their abilities. All the talk of inexperience has to create further doubts in the minds of the players. All his actions suggest he wants to lose so he can point to how bad it was and how great he is because he fixed it. Sprinting the sideline is only about PJ. I'm pretty nervous we have lots of guys movin' on at seasons end because they don't trust their coach.
 

Unknowable at this point and we all hope PJ is able to grow the program into a top tier program.

We reached an inflection point today though: we dropped to 54th in S&P+ while Purdue has risen to 52nd. Two different trajectories this season. In 4 or 5 seasons check back. Can PJ recruit well enough to get us back and surpass recent highs?
 


Brohm more likely to move on IMO with any success.
 



What's considered a better career?

More wins?
More money for athletic department?
Greater increase in revenue from previous trends?
Less red-shirts burned?
More wins during year one?
Cleaner program? Less infractions?

Need to know what the metrics are before we vote.
 

Brohm is in the much easier spot to look good. Purdue has been bad for a few years, so any success makes you look great. Plus he has experienced QBs and they already had a pass heavy system in place. I think if Fleck were at Purdue he would be looking better too. Fleck walked into a situation where he was very unlikely to match last years results or even come very close, so of course he is going to look worse in year one. Plus Fleck has to over haul the offense since his system is a lot different than the past regime.
 

I have no idea, but odds and averages say one will not be coaching their current teams in four years.
 

PMWinSTP said:
I have no idea, but odds and averages say one will not be coaching their current teams in four years.
Click to expand...

I really hope that it's Brohm. The only coach we have lost in the last 20 years that I have been happy about was Brewster.
Other than that, would have preferred keeping Mason, Kill, or Claeys.

Unless Fleck is struggling to get bowl eligible in 2019, I'm hoping he sticks around for awhile.
 



hello-world said:
I really hope that it's Brohm. The only coach we have lost in the last 20 years that I have been happy about was Brewster.
Other than that, would have preferred keeping Mason, Kill, or Claeys.

Unless Fleck is struggling to get bowl eligible in 2019, I'm hoping he sticks around for awhile.
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I tend to agree, but if Fleck is struggling to get bowl eligible in 2019, he'll be in trouble and TCF will be half full.
 

The Minnesota job has better resources these days which is why I would give the nod to Fleck. If Brohm were already here, I would give him the edge.
 

btowngopher said:
Brohm is in the much easier spot to look good. Purdue has been bad for a few years, so any success makes you look great. Plus he has experienced QBs and they already had a pass heavy system in place. I think if Fleck were at Purdue he would be looking better too. Fleck walked into a situation where he was very unlikely to match last years results or even come very close, so of course he is going to look worse in year one. Plus Fleck has to over haul the offense since his system is a lot different than the past regime.
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In order of bolded:
Yes. Three BigTen wins in 4 years. Horrible recruiting.
It's unknowable how many starters Fleck would suspend at Purdue.
Soft schedule. Nobody could have foreseen the injuries and suspensions to key cogs or unwillingness to play freshmen.
Fleck would not be running the same offense Brohm is. Fleck tends to be a run-first coach. Fleck would not be playing a turnover machine like Blough. Pure conjecture.
 

Can't believe we're stooping low to these kind of polls now.
 

#2Gopher said:
Can't believe we're stooping low to these kind of polls now.
Click to expand...

A serious question: if wins and losses don't matter (in perception by fans, media, recruits) how can an internet message board matter? The kids are all on twitter and instagram anyway. As Fleck starts to win his way with his guys the message boards will come around. It sounds like the plan is 2020-2021 before the young recruits are upperclassmen.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
It sounds like the plan is 2020-2021 before the young recruits are upperclassmen.
Click to expand...

It sounds like this is Year Zero so expect us to suck. Next year, we will suck because it is a new QB starting (no experience at the position despite Year Zero being a great time to get experience). The year after it will be that we need to wait for his his recruits to develop and the year after will be "it is too hard to recruit to Minnesota without XYZ" so be happy with 6 wins and the Motor City Bowl. I wish I could feel more optimistic but I feel like I have seen this show before.

I should add that the comments in support of Fleck are reruns of the comments I read when Tim Brewster was hired and the same as when Kill was hired. As was the same tune about recruiting magically getting better. Remember all the talk (on this board) about how the Dome hurt recruiting because they hosted tractor pulls, etc? Kill's recruiting was pretty mediocre - how bad would it have been without that magical halo of TCF?....or, did TCF really not move the needle when it comes to recruiting? I will leave it to you to decide.
 

Where is the "They both will be successful and it will be hard to say who has a better career" option, because that's how I feel.
 

csom_1991 said:
It sounds like this is Year Zero so expect us to suck. Next year, we will suck because it is a new QB starting (no experience at the position despite Year Zero being a great time to get experience). The year after it will be that we need to wait for his his recruits to develop and the year after will be "it is too hard to recruit to Minnesota without XYZ" so be happy with 6 wins and the Motor City Bowl. I wish I could feel more optimistic but I feel like I have seen this show before.

I should add that the comments in support of Fleck are reruns of the comments I read when Tim Brewster was hired and the same as when Kill was hired. As was the same tune about recruiting magically getting better. Remember all the talk (on this board) about how the Dome hurt recruiting because they hosted tractor pulls, etc? Kill's recruiting was pretty mediocre - how bad would it have been without that magical halo of TCF?....or, did TCF really not move the needle when it comes to recruiting? I will leave it to you to decide.
Click to expand...

Much here to agree with - coaching in the first two conference games has been dismal. But MSU Saturday night will tell us a lot. If the Gophers are blown out, this staff may be in over their heads. If the Gophers are competitive, win or lose, there is some hope for a couple of B10 wins and more next year.
 

Great Plains Gopher said:
Much here to agree with - coaching in the first two conference games has been dismal. But MSU Saturday night will tell us a lot. If the Gophers are blown out, this staff may be in over their heads. If the Gophers are competitive, win or lose, there is some hope for a couple of B10 wins and more next year.
Click to expand...

If we're competitive against MSU, I will be shocked. The hull of this boat has broken open. Go back and watch the Maryland and Purdue games and recall how easily those teams moved the ball. Then look at our running game. Both Smith's and Brook's long runs v. Purdue were not the result of any open holes. They were the result of both guys making something out of nothing. Without those runs, we would've averaged 3 yards a carry.

All in all, I will be pleasantly surprised if the score is better than 38-0. In my opinion, we got nothing left. Perhaps McGhee and Winfield (if back) can keep it to 28-0, but they can't cover everyone. I'm not freaking out, I'm not teetering on the top of the High Bridge and I have been taking my meds religiously. I definitely and frequently underestimated the Kill and Claeys defenses and was often wrong about our ability to compete under those coaches. Hopefully, I'm wrong again. But I will say this with all honesty: I was 100% certain we'd give up a touchdown on Purdue's final drive. It was the easiest call I've ever made.

To me, the writing is on the wall. AND, I'm not blaming anyone, because I, and most of you, don't know what we'd be like under Claeys right now. We've been riddled with injuries to some of our best players, we have a very precarious QB situation, we apparently can't run an extensive offensive playbook, we lost players to suspensions, we have a weird new head coach who seems to lack personal expertise in X's and O's and focuses tons of energy on psychology, we have a new line coach who people rave about yet landed at a middle of the road program, and a defensive coordinator who people think is great but got progressively worse at Arkansas. Moreover, the line coach and D.C. are new to P. J.'s system and, for all we know, might not be as effective as the coaches PJ had in those positions at WMU. In other words, there are simply way too many variables for anyone to know where the blame, if any, should be placed.

Man, I hope I'm dead wrong again and, if I am, please feel free to rub my nose in it hard!
 

Taji34 said:
Where is the "They both will be successful and it will be hard to say who has a better career" option, because that's how I feel.
Click to expand...

The real question is how do you define success. For Purdue, I think regaining any whiff of competitiveness would be considered a success. For us, I think the bar is slightly higher as we weren't coming for cellar that Purdue has been in for awhile. That said, I would say that Purdue has had much higher highs over the last 20 years with a Rose Bowl appearance and a bunch of Alamo Bowls appearances, etc.

And that takes me back to a point I have been harping on for this forum - success for the middling/lower tier programs in the Big 10 (measured in Rose Bowls, etc), are typically the result of an X's and O's master bringing something new to the league rather than finding some magic recruiting fairy dust or psychological motivation. Granted, some times a single player can fundamentally change how a team performs, but that is rare.

Off the top of my head as far as the highest highs for the middling programs:

Northwestern - run and gun in the early 2000's. There offense was unstoppable and it was not due to great recruits, it was scheme.

Wisconsin - established a running game based on a few talented backs and development of an O line. Yes, they did some things to bring more resources to the football program, but the heart of the matter was a good coach developing a running game that had success - which bred more success as they were able to recruit based on this strength - backs know they can get national coverage and huge stats by going there - linemen know they will be coached up and get a ton of experience in the sort of skills the NFL wants.

Purdue - Drew Brees but also Joe Tiller. Tiller, like Northwestern, brought a new passing wrinkle to the Big Ten to allow his average recruits to be in a position to exploit mismatches in the passing game. This was successful until the rest of the Big Ten figured it out.

Indiana - never too successful but highest highs came from Randall El being a truly dynamic playmaker

Illinois - Kurt Kittner was a great college QB and this combined with a lot of talent the team usually has but is never able to exploit.

Minnesota - Mason's ZBS made a great offense with mid level recruits (LM being an exception).


Out of these schools - only WI was able to translate this into sustained success. They did this not by magical recruiting dust but by X's and O's.
 

DoubleAlum said:
If we're competitive against MSU, I will be shocked. The hull of this boat has broken open. Go back and watch the Maryland and Purdue games and recall how easily those teams moved the ball. Then look at our running game. Both Smith's and Brook's long runs v. Purdue were not the result of any open holes. They were the result of both guys making something out of nothing. Without those runs, we would've averaged 3 yards a carry.

All in all, I will be pleasantly surprised if the score is better than 38-0. In my opinion, we got nothing left. Perhaps McGhee and Winfield (if back) can keep it to 28-0, but they can't cover everyone. I'm not freaking out, I'm not teetering on the top of the High Bridge and I have been taking my meds religiously. I definitely and frequently underestimated the Kill and Claeys defenses and was often wrong about our ability to compete under those coaches. Hopefully, I'm wrong again. But I will say this with all honesty: I was 100% certain we'd give up a touchdown on Purdue's final drive. It was the easiest call I've ever made.

To me, the writing is on the wall. AND, I'm not blaming anyone, because I, and most of you, don't know what we'd be like under Claeys right now. We've been riddled with injuries to some of our best players, we have a very precarious QB situation, we apparently can't run an extensive offensive playbook, we lost players to suspensions, we have a weird new head coach who seems to lack personal expertise in X's and O's and focuses tons of energy on psychology, we have a new line coach who people rave about yet landed at a middle of the road program, and a defensive coordinator who people think is great but got progressively worse at Arkansas. Moreover, the line coach and D.C. are new to P. J.'s system and, for all we know, might not be as effective as the coaches PJ had in those positions at WMU. In other words, there are simply way too many variables for anyone to know where the blame, if any, should be placed.

Man, I hope I'm dead wrong again and, if I am, please feel free to rub my nose in it hard!
Click to expand...

Glass half empty! Let's see what happens and enjoy the ride. After all sports are supposed to be entertainment, not a dose of depressants!
 

NotAFanOfBecky said:
Glass half empty! Let's see what happens and enjoy the ride. After all sports are supposed to be entertainment, not a dose of depressants!
Click to expand...

I'll be at every game but .... the ride has been pretty rough to enjoy the last couple games ...
 


PMWinSTP said:
I tend to agree, but if Fleck is struggling to get bowl eligible in 2019, he'll be in trouble and TCF will be half full.
Click to expand...

It'll be half full (of Gopher fans) by the end of this year.
 

I like both guys and wish them both well. Basically it's unknowable at this point, but the optimist in me continues to have big hopes for the Fleck regime.

I always go back to the sputtering starts that new head coaches have, even the ones who end up having distinguished careers. I think Joe Gibbs started 0-5 in his first season at Washington and then won it all the next year. Meanwhile, Dan Reeves was new that year, too. He started 5-1 and finished 10-6 and had an excellent career but never won a Superbowl.

The one thing you usually have when you change coaches is a step back in wins and losses. I take Fleck at his word that he's excavating a new foundation. Kill said the same thing, and we gave him the time he needed. There's no way of knowing, but there's a reasonable chance that Jeff Horton would have won more games in 2011 than Jerry did.
 

Face The Facts said:
What's considered a better career?

More wins?
More money for athletic department?
Greater increase in revenue from previous trends?
Less red-shirts burned?
More wins during year one?
Cleaner program? Less infractions?

Need to know what the metrics are before we vote.
Click to expand...

More wins. This is an obvious answer to your super strange questions.
 

Bump


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