Which MN Media Member Will Mention Tubby to Maryland first?

[anonymous]

Katze,

You might want to reread my post. I didn't put Wisconsin and Illinois as one of the 15 jobs better than Maryland.

I listed it as a similar level job.

 

[dpodoll68]

only 2 differences with dpdoll

Only one difference, actually. In retrospect, I would definitely put Ohio St. ahead of Georgetown. I've edited my original list to reflect this.

In a ranking of the most prestigious college basketball programs since 1984-1985 (which would include the entire Gary Williams era, his entire predecessor, and the end of the Driesell era), ESPN placed Maryland 28th. Sounds about right. Since this list is 3 years old, and the 3 years since consisted of 2 second-round losses and missing the postseason altogether, I doubt they would be higher now. (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3501739)

Most of the things that people are trumpeting in Maryland's favor are potential-based items. Having a bevy of local talent doesn't mean anything if you can't capitalize on it. Georgetown, Syracuse, Pitt, and Villanova all do a better job in their local area than does Maryland. By this logic, schools like USC, Miami, Florida St., TCU, etc. would all be elite jobs.

Likewise, having an arena and fervent fan base does indeed make a job more attractive than it otherwise would be, and it does help keep the salary competitive, but those things don't matter if you can't win enough. New Mexico has a great arena and a rabid fan base - does anyone consider New Mexico a Top 15 job?

Lastly, offering a Top 15 salary does not make a job Top 15. Tubby gets paid a Top 15 salary (or at least close, I'm not 100% sure). Does anyone want to make the argument that Minnesota is a Top 15 job, or anything close to it?

Maryland has a lot of advantages, but they haven't translated into a consistently upper-tier program. They went to a Final Four and won a title the following year, but they haven't really done much outside of that two-year run. Failing to make it out of the first round most years (and not even making the Tournament many years) does not make you a Top 15 program. Pretty much every BCS conference program has the potential to be Top 15 with the right coach, but potential doesn't make it so.

When true Top 15 jobs come open, they hire a sitting BCS, NBA, or elite mid-major coach who is wildly in demand. Often, these are head coaches from other Top 15 programs. Take a look at this list of Top 15 hires within the last 15 years:

UCLA - Ben Howland (Pitt)
Kansas - Bill Self (Illinois)
UNC - Roy Williams (Kansas)
Kentucky - John Calipari (Memphis)
Indiana - Tom Crean (Marquette)
Texas - Rick Barnes (Clemson)
Arizona - Sean Miller (Xavier)
Louisville - Rick Pitino (Celtics)
Ohio St. - Thad Matta (Xavier)

The exceptions are Pitt and Florida, who I would argue were not Top 15 jobs when their incumbents took over, and have been made into Top 15 jobs by said coaches. The ones that haven't hired in the last 15 years (Duke, UConn, Syracuse, and Michigan St.) are all coached by current or future HOFers.

How about we make this the decider? If Maryland hires a sitting BCS/NBA/elite mid-major head coach who is highly in demand, I will admit that I'm wrong and we can all hold hands and call it a Top 15 job. Instead, when they hire a random assistant or mid-major coach that the average college basketball fan has ever heard of, you Top 15ers must come back and admit that I and my cohorts were right the whole time. Sound like a deal?

 

[katze019]

I didn't put Wisconsin and Illinois as one of the 15 jobs better than Maryland.

I listed it as a similar level job.

I get that. I consider Maryland above Michigan & Flordia. Wiscy & Ill shouldn't even be in the conversation as 'same class'.

 

[howeda7]

I don't think Maryland is a top 15 job, but it is clearly a better job that Minnesota.

Doogs, we disagree on Florida. Florida is a better job because of resources. That's also why I think Ohio State is the best job in the Big Ten without question.

Fifteen jobs I think are absolutely better than Maryland

ACC (2): UNC, Duke
Big 12 (2): Kansas, Texas
Big East (3): Syracuse, UConn, Louisville
Big Ten (4): Ohio State, Michigan State, Indiana, Michigan
Pac 10 (2): Arizona, UCLA
SEC (2): Florida, Kentucky

Plus there are several jobs that I would put in the same class as Maryland:
Big 12: Missouri
Big East: Pitt, Villanova, Notre Dame
Big Ten: Wisconsin, Illinois
Pac 10: Washington
SEC: Tennessee
Others: Butler, Gonzaga, Memphis

I think it is the third-best job in the ACC, though Virginia is also a good job. I think it's in the 16 to 30 range in terms of quality of job.

Michigan as a better job than Maryland? Wow I can't fathom that. I guess opinion on the Michigan job varies widely, but of the 'football schools' it's not one of the good ones. The fan support stinks and the arena is no prize. I can't see lumping it in with Texas, UF and OSU.

I also can't see Villanova, ND, or Tennesee on the same level. ND and Tennesee are also football schools and not particularly good ones. (Tenn. will be down for a long time now, IMO.) And Villanova is a small private school. Maryland has far better resources.

 

[Unregistered User]

But did anyone on the posted poll list beat the OP on starting rumors about rumors?

 

[ruralgopher]

Michigan as a better job than Maryland? Wow I can't fathom that. I guess opinion on the Michigan job varies widely, but of the 'football schools' it's not one of the good ones.

I think Michigan has to be considered a top 15 school in any sport, really. The school's history, academic and athletic reputation, endowment, proximity to talent, etc all point to top end potential.

 

[howeda7]

I think Michigan has to be considered a top 15 school in any sport, really. The school's history, academic and athletic reputation, endowment, proximity to talent, etc all point to top end potential.

They probably could be if they wanted to be. But they don't care enough about basketball to be bothered, it would seem. Also, unlike UF, Texas and OSU, they are clearly not the #1 program in their own state.

 

[ruralgopher]

They probably could be if they wanted to be. But they don't care enough about basketball to be bothered, it would seem. Also, unlike UF, Texas and OSU, they are clearly not the #1 program in their own state.

You are right, they don't seem to care much about basketball currently. If there were ever a program that deserved the tag 'sleeping giant' though, I think it is Mich.

 

[dboy]

according to ESPN, the hotbed of HS hoops is 20 minutes from the MD campus.. Prince George's County, MD
Both Durant and Beasley, back to back NCAA NPOYs played in the same rec league there as kids.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?id=3775073

tough for Tubby to pass on this if it comes up.

 

[dpodoll68]

according to ESPN, the hotbed of HS hoops is 20 minutes from the MD campus.. Prince George's County, MD
Both Durant and Beasley, back to back NCAA NPOYs played in the same rec league there as kids.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?id=3775073

tough for Tubby to pass on this if it comes up.

Yes, that's great. Which of those two played for Maryland again?

All of this "proximity to talent" nonsense is meaningless if the school doesn't actually sign the players. Is South Florida a football powerhouse now?

 

[dboy]

south fla might not yet be.. but 'the U' is.. so is fsu, fla, bama, etc... just ask Seantrel.

i think tubby would agree, mr mvp.. a wee bit easier to keep the locals @ home. ( or do you have tubby off to Eastern Washington soon? ).

 

[dboy]

Yes, that's great. Which of those two played for Maryland again?

All of this "proximity to talent" nonsense is meaningless if the school doesn't actually sign the players. Is South Florida a football powerhouse now?

so is it the school that does the signing/recruiting?... or the coach and staff..

 

[howeda7]

Yes, that's great. Which of those two played for Maryland again?

All of this "proximity to talent" nonsense is meaningless if the school doesn't actually sign the players. Is South Florida a football powerhouse now?

South Florida football is a lot closer comparison to George Washington or George Mason basketball than Maryland. Obviously, also have to have the goods to land the kids, but proximity to talent still matters if you aren't UNC or Duke. Williams did land that talent for a long time. By many accounts he got lazy on the recruiting side. It shows. It doesn't mean a new coach won't be able to win big there.

 

[dpodoll68]

a wee bit easier to keep the locals @ home.

Why haven't they, then? If a borderline-HOF coach can't do it, why would anyone else think that they can?

Also, how do you figure that it's easier? The DC area is recruited heavily by all the big hitters in the ACC and Big East, as well as major powers nationwide when they decide they want someone. Who recruits the MSP metro as heavily as Minnesota? With few exceptions, Tubby has signed most of the local players that he really wanted.

 

[Ope3]

ESPN 980

I listened to Tony Kornheisers radio show which is based in DC today. One of the guests, Chris Knockey who played for Gary Williams at American U and now does TV work indicated the job is in high demand. Direct quote was that unless your name is "Coach K, Roy Williams or Bill Self one has to at least consider the opportunity." Tubby's name came up, and he said while he thinks he's a great coach that Maryland will go younger.

My own thoughts about Maryland, it's no worse than a top 15-20 program due to to:

- New Arena
- Great Metro Area
- Strong recruiting base
- Historically the best hoops conference

Only 12 programs have won NCAA titles in the last 20 yrs, Maryland is one of them. Enough said.

 

[dpodoll68]

My own thoughts about Maryland, it's no worse than a top 15-20 program due to:

- New Arena
- Great Metro Area
- Strong recruiting base
- Historically the best hoops conference

Let's do this for Miami:

- New Arena Check, opened in 2002
- Great Metro Area Check, people love to live in Miami
- Strong recruiting base Check, southern Florida turns out many great players on an annual basis
- Historically the best hoops conference Check, Miami is also in the ACC

Miami is no worse than a top 15-20 program.

 

[GopherGod]

South Florida football is a lot closer comparison to George Washington or George Mason basketball than Maryland. Obviously, also have to have the goods to land the kids, but proximity to talent still matters if you aren't UNC or Duke. Williams did land that talent for a long time. By many accounts he got lazy on the recruiting side. It shows. It doesn't mean a new coach won't be able to win big there.

I agree with you. The reason Maryland is such a good job is because of the proximity to talent. They just need a coach who likes to recruit and is relatively good at it. Gary Williams didn't like to recruit in his later years and left it all up to his assistant coaches while other schools had the head coach showing up at games. He also wouldn't deal at all with the AAU coaches which you need to do today to get a shot at the vast majority of the top high school players, like it or not. A coach who has no problem doing that will see the Maryland job as a gold mine. There was a three part piece done a few years ago by the Washington Post highlighting the poor recruiting from Williams and his overall hands off approach and laziness in recruiting.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...2/11/AR2009021102722.html?sid=ST2009021102913

 

[howeda7]

Let's do this for Miami:

- New Arena Check, opened in 2002
- Great Metro Area Check, people love to live in Miami
- Strong recruiting base Check, southern Florida turns out many great players on an annual basis
- Historically the best hoops conference Check, Miami is also in the ACC

Miami is no worse than a top 15-20 program.

Give me a break. Yes they have a new arena. It has all of 7,000 seats. They don't fill it. They've won all of about 3 NCAA tournament games in their entire history. They are the 3rd best BCS conference school in their own state (at best). Yes, Miami and Maryland are a perfect comparison.

 

[dpodoll68]

Yes, Miami and Maryland are a perfect comparison.

I never said that they were. Do they, or do they not, meet all of the stated criteria?

 

[GopherGod]

Give me a break. Yes they have a new arena. It has all of 7,000 seats. They don't fill it. They've won all of about 3 NCAA tournament games in their entire history. They are the 3rd best BCS conference school in their own state (at best). Yes, Miami and Maryland are a perfect comparison.

For 2010 season Maryland was 7th in the country in attendance(avg. 16,792 per game) while Miami (avg. 4713) wasn't even in the top 100.

 

[howeda7]

I never said that they were. Do they, or do they not, meet all of the stated criteria?

Yes. Clearly the list was incomplete. You also need some level of historical success. Besides, 'new arena' and 'best hoops conference' would have to have huge asterisks next to them for Miami. A BCS school with an arena that small that can't even fill it is sad. And the ACC wanted Miami for basketball as much as the Big 10 wants Nebraska for basketball. Which is to say, they'd ask them to not participate but it would be rude.

Anyway, I think your main argument is that Maryland's historical success is not adequate, and the rest of us say being one of the 12 schools to have won a title in 20 years, and making multiple Final Fours is pretty good company. The fact that they have all of those other things just puts them over the top into fairly elite company.

 

[dpodoll68]

For 2010 season Maryland was 7th in the country in attendance(avg. 16,792 per game) while Miami (avg. 4713) wasn't even in the top 100.

Tennessee was 4th, and Creighton was 15th. Tennessee and Creighton are no worse than top 15-20 programs.

 

[dpodoll68]

Yes.

Thank you for making my point for me.

 

[GopherGod]

Tennessee was 4th, and Creighton was 15th. Tennessee and Creighton are no worse than top 15-20 programs.

Sure thing if you just want to look at one factor alone, which no one else and most importantantly a coach would do when evaluating the potential of a job. By the way, aren't you about due to get your boss a fresh cup of coffee. You might as well make yourself useful around the office for a change.

 

[howeda7]

For 2010 season Maryland was 7th in the country in attendance(avg. 16,792 per game) while Miami (avg. 4713) wasn't even in the top 100.

I know there were several years that Northern State (who was #1 in attendance in D-II) averaged more than Miami.

 

[dpodoll68]

Sure thing if you just want to look at one factor alone, which no one else and most importantantly a coach would do when evaluating the potential of a job.

I wasn't the one who brought up attendance figures as though they were important.

By the way, aren't you about due to get your boss a fresh cup of coffee.

Aren't you about due to give Osborne his daily rimjob before he leaves for the weekend?

 

[GopherGod]

I wasn't the one who brought up attendance figures as though they were important.



Aren't you about due to give Osborne his daily rimjob before he leaves for the weekend?

Well I think most high level coaches would feel that fan support is important when evaluating a job. Attendance being a measure of the level of support. In regards to the job in Lincoln, I sent your wife instead so you are alone cooking dinner tonight.

 

[dpodoll68]

In regards to the job in Lincoln, I sent your wife instead so you are alone cooking dinner tonight.

Nice job admitting that you are responsible for ensuring that Tom Osborne gets his daily rimjob.

 

[Ope3]

Maryland/Miami

Let's do this for Miami:

- New Arena Check, opened in 2002
- Great Metro Area Check, people love to live in Miami
- Strong recruiting base Check, southern Florida turns out many great players on an annual basis
- Historically the best hoops conference Check, Miami is also in the ACC

Miami is no worse than a top 15-20 program.

Umm, it looks like you missed my last statement that Maryland is one of 12 programs to win the NCAA title in the last 20 yrs. Tag on another Final 4 and they are just one year removed from winning the ACC.

 

[GopherGod]

Nice job admitting that you are responsible for ensuring that Tom Osborne gets his daily rimjob.

I would have sent you to do it but the university would have fallen apart without you there to keep the coffee brewing and the message board posts coming. It might have been to big a job for you anyways.