Which current Power 5 head coaches are the best and worst vs. the Top 25? (The Worst: T(9) PJ Fleck – Minnesota – 20% (4-16))

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Spoofin said:
Your math works, but it treats all unranked teams evenly. We are a P5 team trying to compete in the B1G. PJ has been pretty bad at beating good teams. We had this same discussion on here with the PJ vs Brohm debate so I have already heard all the excuses why this stat doesn’t matter. I’m not buying it 🤷‍♂️
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There is no doubt Brohm has better wins than Pj
He also has more bad losses.

They’re both really good coaches
 

Plato said:
If PJ has a winning conference record and beats NC this season he will no longer be considered mediocre.
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If anyone considers the job he's done he mediocre, they're a complete idiot. I don't care about converting them.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
If anyone considers the job he's done he mediocre, they're a complete idiot. I don't care about converting them.
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It is my opinion that not winning the weakling West at least once is mediocre.
 


tjgopher said:
I know, I'm suggesting we may have played three ranked teams last year if you use the USA Today Coaches Poll.....MSU was #21 in that ranking when we whipped them in East Lansing.

I'm not sure what you mean by that was one season and one bowl game ago.
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I was taking issue with the article, not with you. You would think it was something in line with the Cubs not winning the world series to say we hadn't beaten a ranked team since the final game of the 2021 season when we played and won our bowl game against non-ranked West Virginia and then played 13 games last year, playing only two AP ranked teams. (While I agree that MSU was ranked in the coaches poll when we played them so arguably we did beat a ranked team and the chatbot could have been more specific in what they used for determining ranking, even discounting that coaches poll, it's not like we've had this monstrous drought of wins in the 14 games (one season and one bowl game ago). Crappy journalism.
 


To be a MN fan one has to appreciate the incremental gains and successes. From one perspective he’s the best MN coach in a long time. From another perspective eg a Vikings fan or a Wisconsin fan failure to win the division falls short of above average. To me the current legacy comes down to a few plays here and there versus Iowa or Purdue, and a sorry snowy night when Game Day was in town. There is potential for greater things and the program is extremely competitive. MN is viewed as a tough out by serious football fans. Will Fleck make good on a title run in year seven (or six, or whatever)? This would be a good year to make a push.
 

What is interesting is the coaches who have done well against the top 25 are at programs that are very good at being a ranked team themselves.

They also get to play a fair number of games against teams that happened to be over-ranked when they played them.

Florida and Kentucky were not very good teams last year, but both were conveniently ranked for their games against Heupel making Heupel look like a great coach against the top 25.

He had a loss against South Carolina last year, who was not ranked at the time.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
To be a MN fan one has to appreciate the incremental gains and successes. From one perspective he’s the best MN coach in a long time. From another perspective eg a Vikings fan or a Wisconsin fan failure to win the division falls short of above average. To me the current legacy comes down to a few plays here and there versus Iowa or Purdue, and a sorry snowy night when Game Day was in town. There is potential for greater things and the program is extremely competitive. MN is viewed as a tough out by serious football fans. Will Fleck make good on a title run in year seven (or six, or whatever)? This would be a good year to make a push.
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I've never been a Fleck fan. The reason is that seven years in, we are exactly where we were under Kill/Claeys - a play or two away from winning the division (Mason to a lesser extent had a season or two where 2 or 3 plays go differently, we could have ended the year as Conf. champs). Fleck has been all sizzle, very little steak.

One can argue that we're a better team then we were under Kill/Claeys and Mason (definitively better than Brewster), but marginally so. The recruiting promise never materialized (except in June, which didn't even make it out of the week the Sports Communication director sold in the tired story of how amazing our recruiting looks in June each year) and the game is very different today with the transfer portal, etc. than when Fleck was hired.

If you look at the relative team talent levels, the overall team talent is better, but again, only marginally so. The team talent in the Kill/Claeys era was at 12th in the Big when Fleck took over. It's never been above 10th in the 6 years the metric has been measured under Fleck. So while you can argue the talent is better, so is the entire Big 10's talent, save one or two other teams. So we have more of the same until Fleck proves that fact wrong.
 

caliGopher said:
I've never been a Fleck fan. The reason is that seven years in, we are exactly where we were under Kill/Claeys - a play or two away from winning the division (Mason to a lesser extent had a season or two where 2 or 3 plays go differently, we could have ended the year as Conf. champs). Fleck has been all sizzle, very little steak.

One can argue that we're a better team then we were under Kill/Claeys and Mason (definitively better than Brewster), but marginally so. The recruiting promise never materialized (except in June, which didn't even make it out of the week the Sports Communication director sold in the tired story of how amazing our recruiting looks in June each year) and the game is very different today with the transfer portal, etc. than when Fleck was hired.

If you look at the relative team talent levels, the overall team talent is better, but again, only marginally so. The team talent in the Kill/Claeys era was at 12th in the Big when Fleck took over. It's never been above 10th in the 6 years the metric has been measured under Fleck. So while you can argue the talent is better, so is the entire Big 10's talent, save one or two other teams. So we have more of the same until Fleck proves that fact wrong.
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It's like you aren't even watching football.
College football.
NFL draft.
Anything.
 



caliGopher said:
I've never been a Fleck fan. The reason is that seven years in, we are exactly where we were under Kill/Claeys - a play or two away from winning the division (Mason to a lesser extent had a season or two where 2 or 3 plays go differently, we could have ended the year as Conf. champs). Fleck has been all sizzle, very little steak.

One can argue that we're a better team then we were under Kill/Claeys and Mason (definitively better than Brewster), but marginally so. The recruiting promise never materialized (except in June, which didn't even make it out of the week the Sports Communication director sold in the tired story of how amazing our recruiting looks in June each year) and the game is very different today with the transfer portal, etc. than when Fleck was hired.

If you look at the relative team talent levels, the overall team talent is better, but again, only marginally so. The team talent in the Kill/Claeys era was at 12th in the Big when Fleck took over. It's never been above 10th in the 6 years the metric has been measured under Fleck. So while you can argue the talent is better, so is the entire Big 10's talent, save one or two other teams. So we have more of the same until Fleck proves that fact wrong.
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I don’t remember Kill/Claeys ever being within a play or two of winning the division. Fleck has been much closer three different times than Kill/Claeys ever were. Besides that, winning the division isn’t the end all and be all, you obviously forgot the 2019 season, the 11 wins, the consistent 9 win plus seasons, finishing ranked 10th in the nation, the bowl record, all large improvements from Kill/Claeys.
 

It matters somewhat how the fans feel about PJ because fan interest and enthusiasm sell tickets. At the moment fan interest is average compared to NE, IA, and WI.
But the only fan's opinion that really counts is PJ's boss-the AD.
 

Talent level is noticeably up across the board. The conservative (some might say too conservative) style of offense and special teams is a blade that cuts both ways, though. Maybe Fleck embraces the Joel Goodsen/Miles Dalby creed this year.
 

caliGopher said:
I've never been a Fleck fan. The reason is that seven years in, we are exactly where we were under Kill/Claeys - a play or two away from winning the division (Mason to a lesser extent had a season or two where 2 or 3 plays go differently, we could have ended the year as Conf. champs). Fleck has been all sizzle, very little steak.

One can argue that we're a better team then we were under Kill/Claeys and Mason (definitively better than Brewster), but marginally so. The recruiting promise never materialized (except in June, which didn't even make it out of the week the Sports Communication director sold in the tired story of how amazing our recruiting looks in June each year) and the game is very different today with the transfer portal, etc. than when Fleck was hired.

If you look at the relative team talent levels, the overall team talent is better, but again, only marginally so. The team talent in the Kill/Claeys era was at 12th in the Big when Fleck took over. It's never been above 10th in the 6 years the metric has been measured under Fleck. So while you can argue the talent is better, so is the entire Big 10's talent, save one or two other teams. So we have more of the same until Fleck proves that fact wrong.
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Lol
 



btowngopher said:
I don’t remember Kill/Claeys ever being within a play or two of winning the division. Fleck has been much closer three different times than Kill/Claeys ever were. Besides that, winning the division isn’t the end all and be all, you obviously forgot the 2019 season, the 11 wins, the consistent 9 win plus seasons, finishing ranked 10th in the nation, the bowl record, all large improvements from Kill/Claeys.
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You just proved caliGopher's point. PJ took a 9 win team and won 2 more games (with the nearly the same players) and then stayed at 9 wins. The improvement we were promised has never materialized. If it had then he would have won the west. This staff is paid 5x more, with significantly more advantages...athlete's village (which kill did the heavy lifting on), transter portal, etc. and has maintained what they inherited.
 

JoeSchmoe said:
You just proved caliGopher's point. PJ took a 9 win team and won 2 more games (with the nearly the same players) and then stayed at 9 wins. The improvement we were promised has never materialized. If it had then he would have won the west. This staff is paid 5x more, with significantly more advantages...athlete's village (which kill did the heavy lifting on), transter portal, etc. and has maintained what they inherited.
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You really think Claeys was set to consistently be winning 9 games a year? Lol @ nearly the same players.

Paid 5x more? Everyone is paid way more now.

How is the transfer portal an advantage? It’s a new wrinkle that every team had to learn along with the free transfer rules. Yes we can get players from it, but so can everyone else, and we’ve lost good players because of it as well.

Again this was not a consistent 9 win program that Fleck inherited, so no he hasn’t just maintained the program. Keep ignoring the highest finish in the AP Poll that we’ve had in roughly 60 years.

Only thing that matters is the division I guess. Win 8 games and get that division title and finish unranked, that’s more meaningful than finishing 10th in the country to some apparently.
 

btowngopher said:
You really think Claeys was set to consistently be winning 9 games a year? Lol @ nearly the same players.

Paid 5x more? Everyone is paid way more now.

How is the transfer portal an advantage? It’s a new wrinkle that every team had to learn along with the free transfer rules. Yes we can get players from it, but so can everyone else, and we’ve lost good players because of it as well.

Again this was not a consistent 9 win program that Fleck inherited, so no he hasn’t just maintained the program. Keep ignoring the highest finish in the AP Poll that we’ve had in roughly 60 years.

Only thing that matters is the division I guess. Win 8 games and get that division title and finish unranked, that’s more meaningful than finishing 10th in the country to some apparently.
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Yes, it is the only thing that matters. Who gives a rip if we are ranked if we don't win more games and titles than the previous staff who we fired because we wanted to win more games and titles than. It's so elementary to understand that it's funny that you don't.
 

btowngopher said:
winning the division isn’t the end all and be all
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Technically, PJ won the division in 2019. There is a Big Ten West championship trophy in the Gopher football facility. The Gophers simply lost the head-to-head with Wisconsin for the title game appearance. It is a bit of a hallow title because of that, but it is a step further than anything else we've done.
 

JoeSchmoe said:
Yes, it is the only thing that matters. Who gives a rip if we are ranked if we don't win more games and titles than the previous staff who we fired because we wanted to win more games and titles than. It's so elementary to understand that it's funny that you don't.
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Some elementary numbers:

Kill/Claeys in six years:
40-37 overall (.519)
20-29 Big Ten (.408)
2-3 in bowl games (.333)
1 2nd place Big Ten West
5x 4th or worse in Big Ten West

Fleck in six years:
44-27 overall (.620)
26-26 in Big Ten (.500)
4-0 in bowls (1.000)
1 co-championship Big Ten West
2x 2nd place Big Ten West (3 top 2 finishes)
3x 4th or worse
 

JoeSchmoe said:
You just proved caliGopher's point. PJ took a 9 win team and won 2 more games (with the nearly the same players) and then stayed at 9 wins. The improvement we were promised has never materialized. If it had then he would have won the west. This staff is paid 5x more, with significantly more advantages...athlete's village (which kill did the heavy lifting on), transter portal, etc. and has maintained what they inherited.
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Kill isn’t coming back. Time to get over it
 

tjgopher said:
Some elementary numbers:

Kill/Claeys in six years:
40-37 overall (.519)
20-29 Big Ten (.408)
2-3 in bowl games (.333)
1 2nd place Big Ten West
5x 4th or worse in Big Ten West

Fleck in six years:
44-27 overall (.620)
26-26 in Big Ten (.500)
4-0 in bowls (1.000)
1 co-championship Big Ten West
2x 2nd place Big Ten West (3 top 2 finishes)
3x 4th or worse
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And this does the entire exercise a disservice
It wasn’t choosing Kill or Fleck. Kill was gone.

It was choosing Claeys or Fleck.



They aren’t coming back. Claeys and Kill aren’t coming back. Sorry to those who still can’t get over Claeys’ dismissal.
 

JoeSchmoe said:
Yes, it is the only thing that matters. Who gives a rip if we are ranked if we don't win more games and titles than the previous staff who we fired because we wanted to win more games and titles than. It's so elementary to understand that it's funny that you don't.
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We are winning more games…the goal is to finish as high in the polls as possible at the end of the year. 10 is a lot closer to 1 than anything Kill/Claeys did.
 


I think the talent is better under Fleck and feels like we are a little closer to being a division winner than under Kill/Claeys, although I felt closer to national prominence in a few of the years under Mason. Perhaps that is because of the offensive firepower.

I say the talent is better but also give a lot of credit to where Kill and Claeys built it from. That team that Fleck inherited had more than a couple NFL’ers and at least one really good one. No QB though and probably why the 5-7 record.

I like the consistency Fleck has brought but I do think k part of that is inheriting 9 win power 5 team. Not something most coaches get. I think Fleck has it in him to get that next level, at least Big10 wise. All hinges on finding that magical QB, something the previous regimes couldn’t quite do.
 

WoodburyTim said:
I think the talent is better under Fleck and feels like we are a little closer to being a division winner than under Kill/Claeys, although I felt closer to national prominence in a few of the years under Mason. Perhaps that is because of the offensive firepower.

I say the talent is better but also give a lot of credit to where Kill and Claeys built it from. That team that Fleck inherited had more than a couple NFL’ers and at least one really good one. No QB though and probably why the 5-7 record.

I like the consistency Fleck has brought but I do think k part of that is inheriting 9 win power 5 team. Not something most coaches get. I think Fleck has it in him to get that next level, at least Big10 wise. All hinges on finding that magical QB, something the previous regimes couldn’t quite do.
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I agree with the Mason take somewhat, not sure he had the program closer to national prominence than Fleck, but he did have it close, unfortunately if Fleck hovers around .500 for the next three years his seat may heat up like Mason’s did.
 

tjgopher said:
Some elementary numbers:

Kill/Claeys in six years:
40-37 overall (.519)
20-29 Big Ten (.408)
2-3 in bowl games (.333)
1 2nd place Big Ten West
5x 4th or worse in Big Ten West

Fleck in six years:
44-27 overall (.620)
26-26 in Big Ten (.500)
4-0 in bowls (1.000)
1 co-championship Big Ten West
2x 2nd place Big Ten West (3 top 2 finishes)
3x 4th or worse
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Of Course PJ's overall numbers of wins in and out of conference are going to be higher than kill/claeys. They took over a team that went 1-11, 7-6, 6-7, and 1-6. When PJ wins the west and plays in the big 10 championship game and/or wins significantly more than 9 games every year, then he has taken us to the next level. Otherwise he is maintaining what he inherited. Pretty simple.
 


Kill and Claeys did a lot of good things here and they deserve credit for that, but anyone saying PJ “inherited a 9 win team” is being disingenuous at best.
 

Gophers1992 said:
Kill and Claeys did a lot of good things here and they deserve credit for that, but anyone saying PJ “inherited a 9 win team” is being disingenuous at best.
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How many games did we win the year before PJ was hired? It was 9 since you can't remember. Your comment is the definition of disingenuous. PJ is maintaining and that is great...but let's keep it in perspective.
 

JoeSchmoe said:
Of Course PJ's overall numbers of wins in and out of conference are going to be higher than kill/claeys. They took over a team that went 1-11, 7-6, 6-7, and 1-6. When PJ wins the west and plays in the big 10 championship game and/or wins significantly more than 9 games every year, then he has taken us to the next level. Otherwise he is maintaining what he inherited. Pretty simple.
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He didn’t inherit a program that was built to win 9 or more games regularly. He inherited a program that won 9 games once. Why would he have to win significantly more than 9 EVERY year to be considered better than someone who won 9 one time? 11>9 simple right?
 

tjgopher said:
Technically, PJ won the division in 2019. There is a Big Ten West championship trophy in the Gopher football facility. The Gophers simply lost the head-to-head with Wisconsin for the title game appearance. It is a bit of a hallow title because of that, but it is a step further than anything else we've done.
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Putting a West trophy in the trophy case was pathetic.
 

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