When can we start expecting better recruits?

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Bad Gopher said:
The bold is untrue. We can get a foothold with 3* and 4* guys if the players are cohesive and the team is well coached. Then you build from there. 5* guys are not a birthright for any program.
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Instead of saying we can't have a winning program, I should have said we're less likely to have a winning program. Theoretically, we should have a recruiting advantage in signing the in-state talent. In my opinion, failure to capitalize on this advantage is the main factor in the lack of success during Pitino's tenure. Whiffing on Garcia, Suggs, Holmgren and several other local 4/5 stars is not acceptable - yeah, we could build with the right national guys, but the best ones tend to either stay at home or go to one of the traditional powers.
 

Go Gophs said:
Tubby had the best class of the U of M has ever had here for his first class.

Also, why do people think that us keeping 3 star guys from our state is any different than the type of recruiting we are currently getting under Pitino?

Just because they are from here, doesn't mean anything. If he can't get the TOP guys. I'm talking the 4 and 5 star guys in state. Nothing will change as far as recruits go. We already get 3 and 4 star kids.

Excellent offense, tough rebounding and smart hard working offense is the only way to win here. We will never win by out-talenting anyone in this conference.
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There are 9 guys with good P6 offers just in the state of Minnesota for 2022. 7 of those are 4 stars. It's an exceptional year for hoops talent in this state. There is a lot to work with here.

247sports.com

2022 Top Basketball Recruits in Minnesota

The 247Sports rankings are determined by our recruiting analysts after countless hours of personal observations, film evaluation and input from our network of scouts.
247sports.com 247sports.com
 


So who are the instate guys we would have a good chance with in 2022? Does he have any previous work at Xavier with any of them?
 

The hometown guys thing is great but how much shit was said about the following guys the past few years...

Michael Hurt
Jarvis Omersa
Gabe Kalscheur
Both Gach

If we miss on the top of the top in state but the goal is to keep the next tier is this what we'll be looking at?
 


Bob_Loblaw said:
I started this thread for this precise reason. I'm genuinely asking when it is realistic for me to start having expectations of better recruits. I am trying to give the guy a shake and I am keeping all of my pouting to the pouting-appropriate threads.

Your post is precisely what worries me. Even asking when it would be appropriate to have any expectations from Ben gets people defensive.
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Ok, well do you think you'd have started this thread if your candidate of choice was hired? My point is it's clear some people don't like the hire. You don't need to find a different way of saying the same thing.

As someone who's really excited about Johnson, I'd say we should expect good/great recruits immediately, why wouldn't we? But I'm also not gonna ding him the first time he brings in someone without a name.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
I understand he might not be able to lock down a spectacular class right now, but when do you all think we should start expecting these good local recruits to start signing with the Gophers?

Next class?
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How fast can a dog chase its tail?

All kidding aside, can Ben Johnson surround himself with a good coaching staff that can maximize each player's potential in the shortest amount of time? A lot of things like missed free throws, poor defense, etc... are correctible.

They have to start winning. The sooner they can do that, the greater the buy-in from fans and recruiting prospects. If it is a yawner, we'd go back into our GH shell and ignore basketball.
 
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WriterGoph said:
The thing I don't think some people are factoring in is that (like SON alluded to above) is that with Ben, we are not "starting over" on the local front like we would have been with Pitino or Monson or even Tubby. Ben has existing relationships with the AAU and HS coaches, so I don't think we have the same need for beginning relationships as we would have with a coach who has no foundation here in Minnesota. That *should* be a plus for Ben and I wouldn't be surprised if that factored into Coyle's decision.

Also, we have no clue how many out of these top 9 2022 kids may have some affinity or connection to the U (like Thompson in 2021 or maybe Holloman in 2022 for example with his mother having played here), In those cases, a coaching change and someone they can identify with a bit more could be all that some of these kids were waiting for in regards to the U.
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He doesn't need to build relationships with the coaches, those coaches will put in a good word with their kids about him, and he can and will put in the effort to build up relationships with local talent 2, 3, 4 years out.

And ........ ?? Then what?

Obviously recruits and their families are impressionable. I buy that.


But I'm just a terrible pessimist that, sans being a winner, that there is any other hope for a local talented kid to pick us, despite the coach thumbs up and the trying harder.

Hope I'm wrong. But ... well ... Scott Frost.
 



Go Gophs said:
If he can't get the TOP guys. I'm talking the 4 and 5 star guys in state. Nothing will change as far as recruits go. We already get 3 and 4 star kids.

Efficient, smart offense, tough rebounding and hard working excellent defense is the only way to win here. We will never win by out-talenting anyone in this conference.
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I think this is the hard, honest truth.

You accept it, and try to build your program around it. I think that's what Wisc does.


If there really was this thought that "OK we'll try it ... he says he can make the local 4/5 stars stay home, let's see" ..... then it will fail. Sorry
 

MplsGopher said:
He doesn't need to build relationships with the coaches, those coaches will put in a good word with their kids about him, and he can and will put in the effort to build up relationships with local talent 2, 3, 4 years out.

And ........ ?? Then what?

Obviously recruits and their families are impressionable. I buy that.


But I'm just a terrible pessimist that, sans being a winner, that there is any other hope for a local talented kid to pick us, despite the coach thumbs up and the trying harder.

Hope I'm wrong. But ... well ... Scott Frost.
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I was under the impression this conversation was about what and how quickly we could expect results from Ben. My point was that I think he can probably make quicker headway with these initial classes (2022 and 2023) than a coach with no Minnesota connections or background likely would be able to do. Obviously if he doesn't show progress on the court in the first couple seasons none of that will matter, but that pretty much goes for any coach we would have hired.
 


Ihatebucky said:
Ok, well do you think you'd have started this thread if your candidate of choice was hired? My point is it's clear some people don't like the hire. You don't need to find a different way of saying the same thing.

As someone who's really excited about Johnson, I'd say we should expect good/great recruits immediately, why wouldn't we? But I'm also not gonna ding him the first time he brings in someone without a name.
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Good for you, that's a good attitude and I'm with you after a little disappointment. However, Minnesota fans are so used to failure after the last 40 years that they have grown accustomed to giving up on the coach at the first failure or missed expectation. That's what makes it so tough here for anyone who doesn't already have a pedigree. I really, really hope for the best for Ben and am hopeful he gets off to a flying start on recruiting. If so real success on the floor is a few years out.
 



MaxyJR1 said:
What's is winning to you? For me winning is being top 8 in conference on a regular basis and in the tournament as much as possible.
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Winning to me is:

Yr 1 - Build/ Transition
Yr 2 - Young team / Bubble team
Yr 3 - Make NCAA with Sophomore / Junior heavy squad.
Yr 4 - Top 25 / Sweet Sixteen level

Rinse repeat years 2-4 after that.
 

Face The Facts said:
Winning to me is:

Yr 1 - Build/ Transition
Yr 2 - Young team / Bubble team
Yr 3 - Make NCAA with Sophomore / Junior heavy squad.
Yr 4 - Top 25 / Sweet Sixteen level

Rinse repeat years 2-4 after that.
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Yep- that's the ticket . Well that is unless the home boys want to make a big run next year:

Robbins
Garcia
Walton
Gabe
Wright

:)
 

bga1 said:
Yep- that's the ticket . Well that is unless the home boys want to make a big run next year:

Robbins
Garcia
Walton
Gabe
Wright

:)
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I'm fine with starting on year 3 or 4 and then repeating.
Skipping year 1 or 2 and grabbing transfers is fine.

I just want the three year cycle.

One of the best Gopher basketball memory I have was when Ray Gaffney was the lone senior and we made the NCAA's. It was a lot of fun watching them make a run and knowing all but Ray were coming back the following year.
 

tmvander said:
The gophers can also build from outside the state which nobody likes to hear. I realize the best possible odds of getting a 5* guy are one in your backyard but we don't need the in state guys to be successful. We could start with landing top 100 guys from elsewhere and get good enough to where local guys want to stay home.

However, even if we're good they may not want to. Look at Wisconsin...they've had some 5* guys over the last 10 years and they've all bailed.
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Couldn't agree more. Wisconsin hasn't fixated on getting the in-state guys like Minnesotans have because they've found the right players for their system in other places. Of the eight 5* players from the state of Wisconsin during their 20+ year run of excellence, two have stayed home, and they've missed on the last 6 since signing Dekker in 2012:

Patrick Baldwin Jr (uncommitted, but Wisconsin's not in the mix)
Jalen Johnson (Duke)
Tyler Herro (Kentucky)
Diamond Stone (Maryland)
Henry Ellenson (Marquette)
Kevon Looney (UCLA)
Sam Dekker (Wisconsin)
Brian Butch (Wisconsin)

Now look at their best players in that same time period, the great majority of them have come from out of state:

Frank Kaminsky (Illinois)
Alando Tucker (Illinois)
Ethan Happ (Illinois)
Mike Wilkinson (Minnesota)
John Leuer (Minnesota)
Jordan Taylor (Minnesota)
Nigel Hayes (Ohio)
Sam Dekker (Wisconsin)
Devin Harris (Wisconsin)
Mike Kelley (Wisconsin)
Kirk Penney (New Zealand)

We can win with kids from anywhere, not just Minnesota. Johnson needs to establish his style and culture then recruit to fit that. That's unfortunately worked for Wisconsin for two decades now.
 

Face The Facts said:
Winning to me is:

Yr 1 - Build/ Transition
Yr 2 - Young team / Bubble team
Yr 3 - Make NCAA with Sophomore / Junior heavy squad.
Yr 4 - Top 25 / Sweet Sixteen level

Rinse repeat years 2-4 after that.
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Is this what Wisconsin is at? Honest question.

I see no reason we can't achieve what they have. For better or worse, they're my measuring stick for football and MBB.
 

Ihatebucky said:
Ok, well do you think you'd have started this thread if your candidate of choice was hired? My point is it's clear some people don't like the hire. You don't need to find a different way of saying the same thing.

As someone who's really excited about Johnson, I'd say we should expect good/great recruits immediately, why wouldn't we? But I'm also not gonna ding him the first time he brings in someone without a name.
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Sure, I would have asked the same question. This is an incredibly common question to ask about people being hired to turn around a program. With Ben Johnson, it seemed like the powers that be (and the people who loved the hire) seem to think it will improve our recruiting. This is similar to the people who defended Pitino. Those folks could never tell us when it would be okay to start expecting a decent team.

I'm not going to ding him the first time he brings in someone without a name. I have pretty realistic expectations. My point is, literally, when is it okay to start dinging him?

If we are still a 10-14th best team in the Big 10 and the best players still are leaving the state in 2025 - should he be on the hot seat? 2026? If this happens, I want to know when it is okay to rip him. With Pitino we were told we had to wait because he was so young (learning on the job) and because he was so unlucky. I guess with this crowd the question should really be "when is it okay for us to start asking when it's okay to expect better recruits?".
 

A lot of the in state argle bargle is tha by keeping good mn kids here it pops the wis and ia bubble. This is true but this will occur when st Thomas shows up.
 

Go Gophs said:
Tubby had the best class of the U of M has ever had here for his first class.

Also, why do people think that us keeping 3 star guys from our state is any different than the type of recruiting we are currently getting under Pitino?

Just because they are from here, doesn't mean anything. If he can't get the TOP guys. I'm talking the 4 and 5 star guys in state. Nothing will change as far as recruits go. We already get 3 and 4 star kids.

Efficient, smart offense, tough rebounding and hard working excellent defense is the only way to win here. We will never win by out-talenting anyone in this conference.
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Because it builds a culture where it's cool to be a Gopher. Tyler Johnson probably helped our future recruiting in football more than Rashod Bateman. There is a generation of kids from Minnesota who idolized Tyler Johnson because he was from Minnesota and good.

The other reason - in basketball - those similar recruits from MN seemed to have outperformed Pitino's guys. Maybe that's an issue with player development.
 

WindyCityGopher said:
Couldn't agree more. Wisconsin hasn't fixated on getting the in-state guys like Minnesotans have because they've found the right players for their system in other places.
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Good stuff, Windy. I'm working on a very similar study right now. It seems, with few exceptions, Bo Ryan would bring in players and they'd apprentice for two years before stepping in to major roles. Sprinkle in the occasional mid-low recruit that blossomed into a superstar and they were always competitive in the B1G.

I don't know how you get kids now to buy in to not playing much until it is their turn. Wisconsin had a lot of seniors so we'll see if Greg Gard can continue this pattern.
WindyCityGopher said:
We can win with kids from anywhere, not just Minnesota. Johnson needs to establish his style and culture then recruit to fit that. That's unfortunately worked for Wisconsin for two decades now.
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WindyCityGopher said:
Couldn't agree more. Wisconsin hasn't fixated on getting the in-state guys like Minnesotans have because they've found the right players for their system in other places. Of the eight 5* players from the state of Wisconsin during their 20+ year run of excellence, two have stayed home, and they've missed on the last 6 since signing Dekker in 2012:

Patrick Baldwin Jr (uncommitted, but Wisconsin's not in the mix)
Jalen Johnson (Duke)
Tyler Herro (Kentucky)
Diamond Stone (Maryland)
Henry Ellenson (Marquette)
Kevon Looney (UCLA)
Sam Dekker (Wisconsin)
Brian Butch (Wisconsin)

Now look at their best players in that same time period, the great majority of them have come from out of state:

Frank Kaminsky (Illinois)
Alando Tucker (Illinois)
Ethan Happ (Illinois)
Mike Wilkinson (Minnesota)
John Leuer (Minnesota)
Jordan Taylor (Minnesota)
Nigel Hayes (Ohio)
Sam Dekker (Wisconsin)
Devin Harris (Wisconsin)
Mike Kelley (Wisconsin)
Kirk Penney (New Zealand)

We can win with kids from anywhere, not just Minnesota. Johnson needs to establish his style and culture then recruit to fit that. That's unfortunately worked for Wisconsin for two decades now.
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I gotta say using Wisconsin as an example only strengthens the argument of emphasizing recruiting in-state and within the region as is reflected in your list of Badger stars. Even if you look beyond that group, you'll see that this golden age of Wisconsin basketball was built on players from Wisconsin, Minnesota, Illinois, Michigan and Ohio. They recruit Minnesota harder than Wisconsin because we have better basketball players and they treat our state like in-state recruiting because of it.

Look, I would love to see the U have players from every continent, I'm a soccer fan and part of the appeal of club soccer for me is how global the rosters are but we don't have the budget for that type of recruiting. The blue bloods have the budget to recruit nationally and globally, we don't and neither does Wisconsin which is why they recruit this way. It's just sensible recruiting. Costs far less money to see a recruit play, have an in-home visit, have the recruit come to practice, go to games and so on when they're a stone's throw from campus. That's what people need to understand. This isn't Minnesota vs. The World, it's just recruiting smarter and cheaper which we haven't done. If you're recruiting two top 50 recruits with one being in Illinois and the other in Florida, it makes far more sense to dedicate time to the kid in Illinois.
 
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I would think Ben will try to get his coaching staff in place before he makes too many roster decisions. It’s going to be a little tricky with all the transfers and I would guess they will want to have a minimum of 4 scholarships available for the 2022 class
 

As to a timetable for expectations - yes, I will be watching the recruiting, but I will also be watching the product on the court.

Pitino was not fired only because he couldn't land the top talent in the state. he was also fired because his preparation and in-game coaching were lacking.

So, let's say Johnson recruits at a similar level to Pitino - but, his teams play smarter, more cohesive basketball, and actually improve during the season. Players may even show individual development - imagine that, players who improve from year to year.

If Johnson puts a better-looking product on the court, that buys him some time on the recruiting scene.
 





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