What is the identity of the program?

[Stan]

In the second and third seasons we pressed, got a lot of points in transition, used our length and athleticism and we had a sense of identity. What is it now? We don't press, we don't push the ball. We don't shoot well. We don't get many easy shots. We play hard D and play tough, so we are a poor man's Clem years identity. While he wouldn't have gotten close in back to back road games like we just did, he at least would rarely lose at home and the team would defend the Barn if it was the last thing we did.

So what is the identity of Tubby's program? Playing hard enough to stay in games? If so, that's good enough to top out at about 22 wins a year and forever put us at 8-10/10-8 range in the Big Ten.

 

[scher215]

In the second and third seasons we pressed, got a lot of points in transition, used our length and athleticism and we had a sense of identity. What is it now? We don't press, we don't push the ball. We don't shoot well. We don't get many easy shots. We play hard D and play tough, so we are a poor man's Clem years identity. While he wouldn't have gotten close in back to back road games like we just did, he at least would rarely lose at home and the team would defend the Barn if it was the last thing we did.

So what is the identity of Tubby's program? Playing hard enough to stay in games? If so, that's good enough to top out at about 22 wins a year and forever put us at 8-10/10-8 range in the Big Ten.

I think you answered your own question. Tubby likes to put teams out there that are unselfish, play hard, and focus on defense.

However, I disagree with the "poor man's Clem years" because Tubby has already put up, through 4 years, pretty similar numbers to Clem. Tubby needs to win in the tournament like Clem did though, that is the one thing I will knock him for. I don't care how he does in anything else, make the tournament every few years and win some games.

After 4 Seasons at Minnesota

Overall Winning Percentage
Clem: .513
Tubby: .602

Big 10 Winning Percentage
Clem: .361
Tubby: .444

Average Conference Finish
Clem: 6.75
Tubby: 7

NCAA Wins
Clem: 6
Tubby: 0

Clem had a pretty underwhelming remainder to his career, never making the NCAA again with the biggest accomplishment being an NIT championship.

The rest of his tenure, didn't happen. So unless Tubby is allowed to start cheating too, I think the two coaches are pretty similar. Tubby needs to win in the tourney though, plain and simple.

 

[Stan]

You are kidding right? The 6 NCAA Tourney wins vs. 0 = they aren't even close in comparison no matter how similar their regular seasons were.

 

[scher215]

You are kidding right? The 6 NCAA Tourney wins vs. 0 = they aren't even close in comparison no matter how similar their regular seasons were.

That's what Tubby needs to improve on. No ifs ands or buts about it. I don't care if Tubby never finishes above 8th in the conference if he can win in the tourney.

That said, Tubby has 3 years left (including this one) to match those 6 tourney ones. Let's see what he can do.

 

[bga1]

I think you answered your own question. Tubby likes to put teams out there that are unselfish, play hard, and focus on defense.

However, I disagree with the "poor man's Clem years" because Tubby has already put up, through 4 years, pretty similar numbers to Clem. Tubby needs to win in the tournament like Clem did though, that is the one thing I will knock him for. I don't care how he does in anything else, make the tournament every few years and win some games.

After 4 Seasons at Minnesota

Overall Winning Percentage
Clem: .513
Tubby: .602

Big 10 Winning Percentage
Clem: .361
Tubby: .444

Average Conference Finish
Clem: 6.75
Tubby: 7

NCAA Wins
Clem: 6
Tubby: 0

Clem had a pretty underwhelming remainder to his career, never making the NCAA again with the biggest accomplishment being an NIT championship.

The rest of his tenure, didn't happen. So unless Tubby is allowed to start cheating too, I think the two coaches are pretty similar. Tubby needs to win in the tourney though, plain and simple.

Even worse than that comparison is this:

Monson's final 4 years (the ones that got hime fired) 26-38 B1G
Tubby's B1G record so far 32-42
Not much difference. Tubby has two tourney appearances to Monson's one. Monson had a 4th place conference finish -Tubby has never been higher than 6th (and that is a crime IMO).

Is Tubby a bum who should be fired? NO. Should we be expecting more results and more passion? I think yes. He needs some help on his assistants for both recruiting and for game management.

 

[Stan]

Even worse than that comparison is this:

Monson's final 4 years (the ones that got hime fired) 26-38 B1G
Tubby's B1G record so far 32-42
Not much difference. Tubby has two tourney appearances to Monson's one. Monson had a 4th place conference finish -Tubby has never been higher than 6th (and that is a crime IMO).

Is Tubby a bum who should be fired? NO. Should we be expecting more results and more passion? I think yes. He needs some help on his assistants for both recruiting and for game management.

Hard to put much into the Monson comparison since you are not factoring the mess that he left Molinari. That year the Gophers went 3-13 and the way Monson had the boys playing prior to getting put out of his misery, it would be hard to imagine Monson would have won more than 1-2 games, so that 26-38 B1G record isn't representative of that last year. The rest of your post I agree with.

 

[bga1]

Hard to put much into the Monson comparison since you are not factoring the mess that he left Molinari. That year the Gophers went 3-13 and the way Monson had the boys playing prior to getting put out of his misery, it would be hard to imagine Monson would have won more than 1-2 games, so that 26-38 B1G record isn't representative of that last year. The rest of your post I agree with.

You are right, Monson left Molinari a lousy squad. However, going into that year, half the fans were already calling for his head. Meanwhile Tubby remains untouchable for many for a similar record because he has a national championship ring in his jewelry drawer.

 

[bigticket1]

That's what Tubby needs to improve on. No ifs ands or buts about it. I don't care if Tubby never finishes above 8th in the conference if he can win in the tourney.

That said, Tubby has 3 years left (including this one) to match those 6 tourney ones. Let's see what he can do.

If he never finishes above 8th in the conference he won't get many chances to coach in the Big Dance.

 

[beavergopher]

Ugly offense. That is our identity.

 

[scher215]

Ugly offense. That is our identity.

An ESPN analyst tweeted recently that Louisville's half court offense was awful and they need transition points to score.

Tubby was an assistant under Rick Pitino at UK.

It's not just MN though that has that problem basically.

 

[bga1]

An ESPN analyst tweeted recently that Louisville's half court offense was awful and they need transition points to score.

Tubby was an assistant under Rick Pitino at UK.

It's not just MN though that has that problem basically.

Win. Place highly in the conference periodically. Get a high seed in the NCAAs. Win games in the NCAA tournament. Do some of those things and no one gives a flyin' rip what your offense looks like. We are not winning as described here. So yeah Pitino's half court offense doesn't always look good- but he wins.

 

[Gopher Warrior]

An ESPN analyst tweeted recently that Louisville's half court offense was awful and they need transition points to score.

Tubby was an assistant under Rick Pitino at UK.

It's not just MN though that has that problem basically.

Probably fair to mention that Louisville's defense has been elite this year and they came into this week unbeaten and ranked #4 in the nation. Slick Rick's program isn't quite in the same place as Minnesota.

 

[scher215]

Probably fair to mention that Louisville's defense has been elite this year and they came into this week unbeaten and ranked #4 in the nation. Slick Rick's program isn't quite in the same place as Minnesota.

Didn't mean to imply it was. I was just pointing out, Louisville is probably a good example of what tubby wants his teams to look like. Elite defense and transition points.

I just found it interesting seeing that comment on a Louisville team coached by a tubby mentor.

 

[scher215]

Win. Place highly in the conference periodically. Get a high seed in the NCAAs. Win games in the NCAA tournament. Do some of those things and no one gives a flyin' rip what your offense looks like. We are not winning as described here. So yeah Pitino's half court offense doesn't always look good- but he wins.

Sorry, wasn't trying to say lay off tubby or anything. Obviously, Pitino has one of the best teams in the nation.

 

[beavergopher]

No, Pitino's teams always feature great three point shooting. One of the first coaches to exploit that rule change. Tubby's..................not so much.

 

[scher215]

No, Pitino's teams always feature great three point shooting. One of the first coaches to exploit that rule change. Tubby's..................not so much.

Looks like someone just makes comments that have no merit what-so-ever ...

Please see the below stats on three point shooting throughout Pitino's tenure at Louisville. I've even compared multiple time frames, just to get ready for your next completely accurate comment!

Tubby (01/02-11/12): 34.26%
Pitino (01/02-11/12): 34.81%

Tubby (07/08-11/12 MN): 35.38%
Pitino (01/02-11/12): 34.81%

Tubby (07/08-11/12 MN): 35.38%
Pitino (07/08-11/12): 34.64%

But keep trying ...

 

[short ornery norwegian]

Tubby needs to win in the tournament like Clem did though, that is the one thing I will knock him for. I don't care how he does in anything else, make the tournament every few years and win some games.

With a 65-team tournament, I think your goal should be a lot higher than make the tournament "every few years." I would say that making the tourney at least 6 or 7 years out of 10 is a reasonable goal - given than in a typical year, at least half of the team in the conference make the field. I don't think expecting to be in the upper half of the conference is asking too much, especially for a coach with a national championship on his resume.

 

[station19]

With a 65-team tournament, I think your goal should be a lot higher than make the tournament "every few years." I would say that making the tourney at least 6 or 7 years out of 10 is a reasonable goal - given than in a typical year, at least half of the team in the conference make the field. I don't think expecting to be in the upper half of the conference is asking too much, especially for a coach with a national championship on his resume.

We should be in the big dance a minimum of 8 out of 10 years and we aren't close.

 

[Gold Vision]

We should be in the big dance a minimum of 8 out of 10 years and we aren't close.

Because MN is a powerhouse basketball school with rich tournament history. Fire all the coaches until we are there!

 

[From the Barn]

Wait, we should be in the tournament 8 of every 10 years even though we have NEVER been to 3 in a row?
How/why?

 

[Dr.Don]

Looks like someone just makes comments that have no merit what-so-ever ...

Please see the below stats on three point shooting throughout Pitino's tenure at Louisville. I've even compared multiple time frames, just to get ready for your next completely accurate comment!

Tubby (01/02-11/12): 34.26%
Pitino (01/02-11/12): 34.81%

Tubby (07/08-11/12 MN): 35.38%
Pitino (01/02-11/12): 34.81%

Tubby (07/08-11/12 MN): 35.38%
Pitino (07/08-11/12): 34.64%

But keep trying ...

Someone making comments on GopherHole that have no merit whatsoever? Come on now, that never happens here.

 

[BarnBurner]

Wait, we should be in the tournament 8 of every 10 years even though we have NEVER been to 3 in a row?
How/why?

How often did Wisky used to be in the ncaa? Are you saying MN cant do what Wisky and a number of other teams accomplish?

I call BS.

Grow up and have some standards and expectations. Excuses are for losers, or so I have been told.

 

[station19]

Wait, we should be in the tournament 8 of every 10 years even though we have NEVER been to 3 in a row?
How/why?

What you should be has no relation to what you have been in the past.

 

[zambam]

What you should be has no relation to what you have been in the past.

Except if you should be that, why have you not been that in the past?

 

[BarnBurner]

Except if you should be that, why have you not been that in the past?

Must be the facilities preventing Wins......

 

[scher215]

Must be the facilities preventing Wins......

Just recruiting, which does hurt wins.

 

[BarnBurner]

Just recruiting, which does hurt wins.

Woo is responsible for recruiting? Who has been responsible for recruting for the past 5 years?

Who is responsible for the program and its results, on the court, in the classroom, overall?

 

[scher215]

Woo is responsible for recruiting? Who has been responsible for recruting for the past 5 years?

Who is responsible for the program and its results, on the court, in the classroom, overall?

Tubby has gotten pretty solid recruits with the resources he has. I posted this in another thread, but I will share it with you as well since you don't seem to get it quite yet. Also, take a look at my recent post in "for those who don't think the U needs a practice facility ..." to see a comment from Al Nolen on how far behind the U is as well as Royce White comparing the U facilities to Iowa states. There also is a video touring the new WVU practice facility which includes hot tubs, ice baths, practice courts, film rooms, etc. if you can see all that and tell me it has zero impact on recruiting, then I don't know what to tell you. No matter how good the salesman, it is tough to sell a beat up pinto for the same price as a brand new Ferrari.

What Minnesota does have and is a reason a lot of recruits even utter the phrase, "Minnesota" is Tubby Smith. A proven and well-known coach. However, if you are not from MN and are just the average 4/5 star recruit, are you coming to Minnesota where you have a good coach and no practice facility or MSU/Purdue/Indiana/Wisconsin/OSU etc. where you not only get a good coach, but also a state of the art practice facility?

Tubby is a good coach, but some people act like he should be destroying all teams in his path simply because he makes money. He makes the 5th most money in the Big10. So for how outrageous people think his contract is, it is only slightly above average in the conference. As I have said before, if you want to say he makes X amount of money so Y should happen. That Y should be a 5th place, at best, finish every year. However, 10 of the other 11 coaches also have state of the art facilities to recruit with. Gotta think that knocks Tubby down to, I don't know, 7th place every year? Where he has been.

And btw, the only other big ten school without a practice facility? Northwestern. How have they done in the NCAA tourney?

Because the Gophers don't have IPads - we would not lose another game in the Barn if the players had IPads. Ralph could play Angry Birds!

That's not the argument AT ALL. The argument is, 18 year olds (hell, I'm 23 and I'd follow this) are impressed by bells and whistles. And if I was touring a school and I have a $500 iPad mounted to my locker? That's pretty impressive. If I have a court I can practice on 24/7, a state of the art film room, etc I am pretty impressed and will be a lot more interested in that school. When guys like Blake and oto have to go to their high school or the Rec to practice, that doesn't look good when Wisconsin can tell kids you always have a place to practice here and relax. We make sure our players have the best. it's all about recruiting, and to some extent the practice facility does help with player improvement too.

Would you take a job, all other things equal, at a company who's office is rented space in a strip mall or one that is a sky scraper downtown, with plush offices, a fitness center and full restaurant? None of those things really help you work better, but that company with the perks will get to hand pick the best employees (see: apple)

Same goes for recruiting, call it stupid all you want, but the bells and whistles are impressive and bring the best recruits in and gives the best chance to win.

 

[BarnBurner]

Tubby has gotten pretty solid recruits with the resources he has. I posted this in another thread, but I will share it with you as well since you don't seem to get it quite yet. Also, take a look at my recent post in "for those who don't think the U needs a practice facility ..." to see a comment from Al Nolen on how far behind the U is as well as Royce White comparing the U facilities to Iowa states. There also is a video touring the new WVU practice facility which includes hot tubs, ice baths, practice courts, film rooms, etc. if you can see all that and tell me it has zero impact on recruiting, then I don't know what to tell you. No matter how good the salesman, it is tough to sell a beat up pinto for the same price as a brand new Ferrari.

What Minnesota does have and is a reason a lot of recruits even utter the phrase, "Minnesota" is Tubby Smith. A proven and well-known coach. However, if you are not from MN and are just the average 4/5 star recruit, are you coming to Minnesota where you have a good coach and no practice facility or MSU/Purdue/Indiana/Wisconsin/OSU etc. where you not only get a good coach, but also a state of the art practice facility?

Tubby is a good coach, but some people act like he should be destroying all teams in his path simply because he makes money. He makes the 5th most money in the Big10. So for how outrageous people think his contract is, it is only slightly above average in the conference. As I have said before, if you want to say he makes X amount of money so Y should happen. That Y should be a 5th place, at best, finish every year. However, 10 of the other 11 coaches also have state of the art facilities to recruit with. Gotta think that knocks Tubby down to, I don't know, 7th place every year? Where he has been.

And btw, the only other big ten school without a practice facility? Northwestern. How have they done in the NCAA tourney?



That's not the argument AT ALL. The argument is, 18 year olds (hell, I'm 23 and I'd follow this) are impressed by bells and whistles. And if I was touring a school and I have a $500 iPad mounted to my locker? That's pretty impressive. If I have a court I can practice on 24/7, a state of the art film room, etc I am pretty impressed and will be a lot more interested in that school. When guys like Blake and oto have to go to their high school or the Rec to practice, that doesn't look good when Wisconsin can tell kids you always have a place to practice here and relax. We make sure our players have the best. it's all about recruiting, and to some extent the practice facility does help with player improvement too.

Would you take a job, all other things equal, at a company who's office is rented space in a strip mall or one that is a sky scraper downtown, with plush offices, a fitness center and full restaurant? None of those things really help you work better, but that company with the perks will get to hand pick the best employees (see: apple)

Same goes for recruiting, call it stupid all you want, but the bells and whistles are impressive and bring the best recruits in and gives the best chance to win.

OK - when Tubby gets his contract extention and moves up in the conference with respect to salary, his teams results will increase to whereever he is in the pay grade race? Immediately? Correct? If that is the case, pay the man. Make him the highest in the coference. We should win titles - until another coach goes by - correct? Cant have it both ways.

AS far as facilities - it may be the new "standard", and it may help in drawing kids to some extent - agreed. To use it as an excuse not to win - not buying it. Look around - it doesnt take the best of everything to win.

One last thing - not totally related - it is quite a commentary on our society and that kids today expect a place to practice, a place to relax, flat screens, nice furniture.

 

[scher215]

OK - when Tubby gets his contract extention and moves up in the conference with respect to salary, his teams results will increase to whereever he is in the pay grade race? Immediately? Correct? If that is the case, pay the man. Make him the highest in the coference. We should win titles - until another coach goes by - correct? Cant have it both ways.

AS far as facilities - it may be the new "standard", and it may help in drawing kids to some extent - agreed. To use it as an excuse not to win - not buying it. Look around - it doesnt take the best of everything to win.

One last thing - not totally related - it is quite a commentary on our society and that kids today expect a place to practice, a place to relax, flat screens, nice furniture.

Yes, if tubby were the highest paid coach in college basketball I would expect some pretty good results, but then I would only expect him to be paid that after delivering results that warrant it and I would also expect the U to invest money and get the school a practice facility first. IMO, you can pay tubby or coach k or whoever a billion dollars a year, but without the right facilities they will still struggle to get recruits. the practice facility isn't for tubby, it is for gopher basketball. Good luck to the next guy if there still isn't a facility.

I personally don't like using the salary argument for any player or coach tho. They should be going out and doing their job regardless. I don't care how much you make, go out and work hard and deliver results and you can make more. Just because it seems like tubby makes a lot to the average person, he is probably about right where he should be for his name and job performance. I think were he at MSU he'd be paid a little less, but MN had to overpay somewhat to get him here. I only point out his salary because many like to say, well he makes more money than I do so he should be the best coach in the world when in reality he is paid slightly above average for a bcs basketball coach (based on big10 standing, haven't actually looked at all bcs coaches)

Tubby is Locked up for awhile still, I'd wait on the extension and hopefully the rumors stop and use that would be extension money towards the practice facility. No matter who the coach is, that will help them immensely and it is pathetic that the U can't get it done. Nebraska just built brand new basketball facilities, Minnesota should be able to.

I don't look at the facilities as an excuse, but a necessity. Facilities and perks are the indirect way of paying players and we are offering pocket change for kids to do the same job elsewhere.

Practice facility should athletically be the number 1 priority for the athletic department. Not for tubby, not because he's "earned it" but because the school needs it if it wants to get the best recruits available.

I don't want to make excuses for tubby, I'd offer the practice facility reason regardless who was coaching. Even Flip would need one. Tim miles would need one. I don't care what your name is, there are always guys out there with just as good or better names who can offer more in facilities.

The U needs to get this started now, while I hope tyus and Vaughn have enough home town pride to come here and take the U to new heights, if they don't, that practice facility would be very nice to help compete with Duke and UNC.