I need a little help understanding something. What does the phrase "play to win" look like? The phrase comes has come up fairly often this year in relation to Fleck's game strategies. Fleck should "play to win" and not "play to not lose". It seems to me that of, course, Fleck plays to win. What am I missing?
What does "play to win" look like in a game - how is it different than "playing not to lose?"
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Gopherchase
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The last six Iowa games , or maybe more accurately the last two or three Iowa games. After seeing that the prior two or three games and the strategy you used didn’t work. — change your best. It’s almost like Ferentz has PJs confidence in his team locked up in a cabinet in Iowa City. If we had the same game plan against Iowa as we had against Wisconsin I think we win by two touchdowns.
Gophers1992
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Absurd, Iowa is better against the pass than Wisconsin and we completed less than half of our passes against them. Conversely Wisconsin contained Mo pretty well white Iowa was getting gashed by Mo. the game plan leads to a win if we don’t miss a short field goal, Mo doesn’t fumble, or T Time doesn’t drop that interception.
AZGopher8
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It is playing, not to lose a chance for a field goal attempt once you are in range rather than calling aggressive plays to score a touchdown.
It is running up the middle on first and second down (and often even on 3rd down) with a slim lead when the defense is loading the box and your chance to get a first down is slim. So instead of putting a game clinching drive together, you punt and pray your defense is up to the challenege of winning the game.
It is limiting the passing game to 15ish throws per game when you have shown potential to move the ball with a more balanced attack.
It is punting on there side of the field instead of going for it on 4th and short.
It is running out the clock rather than trying to score at the end of the half.
It is never returning a punt or kickoff (this changed at the end of the year).
It is running up the middle on first and second down (and often even on 3rd down) with a slim lead when the defense is loading the box and your chance to get a first down is slim. So instead of putting a game clinching drive together, you punt and pray your defense is up to the challenege of winning the game.
It is limiting the passing game to 15ish throws per game when you have shown potential to move the ball with a more balanced attack.
It is punting on there side of the field instead of going for it on 4th and short.
It is running out the clock rather than trying to score at the end of the half.
It is never returning a punt or kickoff (this changed at the end of the year).
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forever a gopher
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PJ sits on the ball with anything less than 2 minutes in the half. Syracuse trots down the field for a score in a matter of a few plays with even less time than the Gophers had. There’s your definition.
I’m a big PJ fan, but his crippling conservatism can be maddening at times.
I’m a big PJ fan, but his crippling conservatism can be maddening at times.
Gopherchase
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It’s absurd that you think the strategy that we’ve used the last six years is the strategy we should keep going with against Iowa. What matters at the end of the game is how many points you score not how many minutes you keep the ball. By definition, using that same strategy going forward is going to be ineffective. They babied 8 during the Iowa game, and it cost us.
WindyCityGopher
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2019 Gophers vs Penn State = playing to win
2019 Gophers vs Iowa = playing not to lose
That year’s biggest and most exciting win and the worst and most depressing loss were directly related to the approach and mindset.
2019 Gophers vs Iowa = playing not to lose
That year’s biggest and most exciting win and the worst and most depressing loss were directly related to the approach and mindset.
salzie
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I think a lot fans would agree.
I'm not asking for air raid, but little more variety and aggressive calls.
I like PJ. But he needs to change his best.
Bob_Loblaw
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We probably best Iowa in 2022 with a conservative approach at the end.
Playing to win just means the strategy you used resulted in a win. Playing not to lose means it resulted in a loss.
Gophers1992
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2019 Gophers vs Penn State = playing to win
what’s this based on? We threw way more against Iowa in 2019. We also went very consevative against PSU but people don’t complain about that when we win.
GophersInIowa
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It’s really just another way of saying being aggressive vs conservative. Do you keep the playbook open in the 4th and try to go up by two scores or do you play it conservative and make the other team go get the win?
hello-world
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Responding to you because I respect you.
He's winning. He has proven Tressel-ball works at Minnesota. Why would he change that?
Against Syracuse, Minnesota was up 14-7 at the half, Minnesota immediately went into a shell defense and started killing the clock on offense. It led to a pick six, and they scored seven off the back of a great special teams play and aggressive push at the end zone. At no point did I think that Minnesota would lose that game, even when Syracuse was airing the ball out.
He found a formula that works at Minnesota. I much prefer this to Mason who couldn't hold a 30-point lead, much less a 7-point lead.
Gopherchase
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I’m sure you don’t respect me, but I’ll chime in anyway. Winning what? We haven’t won the Big Ten West, nor do I think with our current offensive philosophy we can compete that well with The Big Boys. This isn’t 10 years ago when we played Ohio State and Michigan nearly every year he’s winning against the West which has been down and has done well non-conference. If he was playing the schedule that Mason played folks wouldn’t be quite as happy with his Big Ten record. We played in what the sixth or seventh best big 10 affiliated bowl this year and I’ve gone to one Marquis bowl in his six years. He can do better.
salzie
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I'm not asking for an overhaul. I expect overall philosophy to remain, just few tweaks.
Maybe shift from 65% run to 55-60% run. Maybe don't always have your PR assuming 65 yard punt. Little things.
MNVCGUY
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There is no distinction because you are right, Fleck is coaching to win and the players are playing to win. Fans make up the whole playing not to lose thing.
The reality is with anything coaching wise, playcalls work you are a genius, playcalls don't work you are a moron.
The same fans claiming we have to be more aggressive would be moaning and complaining when a turnover happened or the aggressive play let the other team win the game.
Coaches and players are playing to win....fans make up the other stuff.
Gophers1992
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Where’s the ball and how much time is on the clock?
salzie
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I mean I thought I laid down a bunt
bleedsmaroonandgold
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To me, "playing not to lose" means when you are outplaying the other team and get a lead, and then instead of continuing to do what got you the lead, you change the game plan to something much more conservative to try to avoid losing the lead (instead of keeping your foot on the gas and making the other team come up with an answer for what has been working for you).
Bob_Loblaw
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Winning games at a better rate than anyone in the modern era. We also play in an era where we are playing 9 conference games.
Everyone has their personal preference on conservative vs.aggressive but there is absolutely no data suggest you can only max out your winning potential playing a certain way, it’s a preference.
Being aggressive cost us the Iowa game this year. It can win some and lose some.
How many first downs did we make in the second half against Syracuse while trying to run out the clock with Potts and Williams? We won because of defense and special teams, not because Fleck had a smart strategy.
Question answered. Superbly.
Gopherchase
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Yeah, PJ is doing fine I think he has a lot of potential. I just think sometimes it’s disingenuous to says he’s winning or better than our past by a long stretch and compare his Big Ten record against our prior coaches. He’s been marginally better than Mason and Kill-Claeys when you consider their juggernaut vs. our current schedule. They were up against Tiller at Purdue,
Alvarez/Fat Brett at Wisconsin, Ohio State, Michigan,
Penn State, Michigan St. — versus the West heavy schedule now which is weak in comparison— and then Rutgers and Maryland in the conference. I think we can do better than just fine and I think he’ll have to change his best in order for that to happen. Playing not to lose is kind of like porn and you know it when you see it, IMO.
A_Slab_of_Bacon
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For most fans… they will tell you based on the outcome
It’s absurd you think we have used the same strategy against Iowa 6 years in a row when in 2022 we threw 15 passes and ran 50 times where in 2019 we threw the ball 39 time and ran it 30
And that’s counting every sack as a run not a pass
Corrext
Guy clearly didn’t watch the 2019 Iowa game
Gopherchase
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I admittedly don’t have a good recall of the 2019 game. The often mentioned TJ drop I’ve tried to find online because I don’t even remember that I might’ve been fishing or hunting or something. I do hope Ferentz will give PJ back his mojo at some point. He’s up in PJs head.
No idea if Ferentz is in Pjs head but he is clearly in yours
Gopherchase
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You must be OK with losing 8 in a row to him. Hell yes he’s in my head. I have a lot of buddies in Iowa who are Hawkeyes fans, and they think he is well past his prime yet he keeps beating us every year. We have to change our best, and we haven’t yet against him.
Are you going to be okay?