What Ben Johnson can learn from NCAA Tournament

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RockChalk said:
Could it be said that coaching matters?

I think Ben would follow closely in the Penny Hardaway mode if he were to get great talent. All that talent but can't coach them up.
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As another poster mentioned they do have an excellent recruiting class this year but usually don’t get the stars that Duke, Kentucky and maybe Kansas gets on a yearly basis. I don’t think Izzo cares about the B1G tourney at all and focuses on having team fresh/ready for a run into April.

Juwan Howard is a great example but can’t coach the talent. Bielien was a phenomenal coach and got Michigan to multiple final fours with less talent.
 

Plato said:
Fast or slow, big or small, you need players that can put the ball into the net.
My current favorite team in the tournament is Princeton.
They are not only talented at scoring but so very well coached that no matter what the other team throws at them they do not become rattled.
If that coach wants to leave, he is going to find some attractive job openings.
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The interesting thing about Mitch Henderson is he was a long time assistant of Bill Carmody, who never made the tournament at Northwestern over 13 years, after doing it twice in 4 years at Princeton. He and Carmody's first season at Northwestern was Ben Johnson's final season there as a player.
 

60's Guy said:
We finished #216 in the NET. We lost 3 of the starters from that team. Plus another part time starter to graduation. And another 7 foot guy. And our best recruit according to the rankings... transferred before he got here. That's 6 new guys who gotta be at least that good to get to the same starting line at #216. Tall task to be better than this season.
Roster continuity wouldn't be quite as concerning if 5 of those 6 guys hadn't left to go play for someone else they hope will be better for their interests versus graduation.

8 of the top 40 guys in the portal so far have chosen new teams. We need to add 6 as good or better players to get back what we lost...let alone improve. Maybe don't wanna wait too much longer to add at least one of the top 50 guys?
Battle #8. (You know the guy, we won't miss...#8)
Cooper #38
Henley #89
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There are something like 672 players in the portal right now (increasing as I write this no doubt). I think these rankings are pretty dubious. I just saw Henley ranked #23 on the On3 portal ranking. Sorry, that made me laugh. There were 130 + freshman guards who played 600 minutes or more this season and Henley was near the bottom on a number of key composite measures. Battle No. 8? Not the way he played this year. If he reverts to last season's form, maybe he can get close to that.

By the way, you can't count a recruit who never played here as a loss from this past season's team. Would have been nice to have him next season but at least we avoided the dilemma of how to play both Payne and him for major minutes.
 

Vegwards said:
Once again, the Big Ten has an embarrassing year in the NCAA Tournament. Why? Because we are big and slow. Speed kills the Big Ten every year. If Ben Johnson has a brain, he will see this. Instead of trying to match the other BT Teams, building something different. Build a team with speed.

Another lesson to learn is build with college athletes. We are not Kentucky, Michigan State or Duke who always gets the cream of the crop of future NBA players. Recruit people who are solid players with high basketball IQs and who know they are not going to make the NBA. Unlike Battle and Cooper who are delusional in thinking they will be pro basketball players (except maybe in Poland or Slovakia).
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quote from Vegwards: Unlike Battle and Cooper who are delusional in thinking they will be pro basketball players (except maybe in Poland or Slovakia).

I heard there were significant openings on the Ukraine teams. 😂
 
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cjbfbp said:
There are something like 672 players in the portal right now (increasing as I write this no doubt). I think these rankings are pretty dubious. I just saw Henley ranked #23 on the On3 portal ranking. Sorry, that made me laugh. There were 130 + freshman guards who played 600 minutes or more this season and Henley was near the bottom on a number of key composite measures. Battle No. 8? Not the way he played this year. If he reverts to last season's form, maybe he can get close to that.

By the way, you can't count a recruit who never played here as a loss from this past season's team. Would have been nice to have him next season but at least we avoided the dilemma of how to play both Payne and him for major minutes.
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Can't disagree with hardly anything you wrote....it's a crap shoot BUT in addition some big number like over 50% of the eventual couple thousand expected entrants into the portal are not going to find a DI dance partner in the portal...supposedly. My point is a lot of the guys in the portal are not going to even be seen as having potential. Obviously Henley with a scholarship in hand with a Big East team isn't in that group at the very least.
 


From the Parkinglot said:
Guards will ball games in college basketball. Purdue had one of the best if not the best big man in the country. They were beat by a horseshit team cause Purdue’s guards are terrible. Now I am not saying you only need guards, but they are way more important than a big man. Kentucky is the same thing have a great big guy who’s name I can’t spell and they are done because K-State’s guards played better.
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In the Season That Never Was, we had Jackson and Harris - one of the best backcourt tandems in the country. Complimenting them were Jacobson and Lewis who were also competent ball handlers. I'd say that worked out quite well, even if it never officially happened.

Harris was as steady as they came. The guy rarely got rattled and was a lock down defender. Jackson could just decide to take over the game, and often did.

Damnit, now I'm all emotional....
 

DarthGopher said:
In the Season That Never Was, we had Jackson and Harris - one of the best backcourt tandems in the country. Complimenting them were Jacobson and Lewis who were also competent ball handlers. I'd say that worked out quite well, even if it never officially happened.

Harris was as steady as they came. The guy rarely got rattled and was a lock down defender. Jackson could just decide to take over the game, and often did.

Damnit, now I'm all emotional....
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Funny thing was the year before we went to the Final Four we missed the NCAA tournament and drew Tulane in the NIT. They stomped us and it seemed to me like we were a long way off from having what it took to go far. Then we came back with basically the same squad next year, everyone used their summer to get better and we dominated. A lot can happen when you put your mind to it.
 
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DarthGopher said:
In the Season That Never Was, we had Jackson and Harris - one of the best backcourt tandems in the country. Complimenting them were Jacobson and Lewis who were also competent ball handlers. I'd say that worked out quite well, even if it never officially happened.

Harris was as steady as they came. The guy rarely got rattled and was a lock down defender. Jackson could just decide to take over the game, and often did.

Damnit, now I'm all emotional....
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You don’t have to go back that far. The Hollins’s were great back in the day. So was Al Nolan, Nate Mason, Lawrence McKenzie. Every team that was decent in the big ten had a good point guard. That has been lacking for so long.

But yes Bobby Jackson with the knee high socks was amazing.
 

From the Parkinglot said:
You don’t have to go back that far. The Hollins’s were great back in the day. So was Al Nolan, Nate Mason, Lawrence McKenzie. Every team that was decent in the big ten had a good point guard. That has been lacking for so long.

But yes Bobby Jackson with the knee high socks was amazing.
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The Hollins's were very solid, as were those players you mentioned. Take any of those guys and put them on this team, let alone two of them, and the season probably looks a bit different. If I'm Ben, I am finding two 'dudes', or at least one dude and a dude junior. Burn the damn boats if necessary. Get good guards!
 



bga1 said:
Funny thing was the year before we went to the Final Four we missed the NCAA tournament and drew Tulane in the NIT. They stomped us and it seemed to me like we were a long way off from having what it took to go far. Then we came back with basically the same squad next year, everyone used their summer to get better and we dominated. A not can happen when you put your mind to it.
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Totally forgot about the Tulane stomping the year before. Yes, a lot CAN change year to year. Here is hoping beyond hope we see a considerable jump in competency from the players AND coaches.
 

minnyrules11 said:
Michigan St does not get the cream of the crop and usually do more with less.
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At first I thought this post was crazy but, listening to PMT yesterday, they put it into perspective. Since Izzo has been at State he's had 4 lottery picks. In that time Duke has had 25, Kentucky has 22, Kansas has 13 and UNC has 12.
 

60's Guy said:
We finished #216 in the NET. We lost 3 of the starters from that team. Plus another part time starter to graduation. And another 7 foot guy. And our best recruit according to the rankings... transferred before he got here. That's 6 new guys who gotta be at least that good to get to the same starting line at #216. Tall task to be better than this season.
Roster continuity wouldn't be quite as concerning if 5 of those 6 guys hadn't left to go play for someone else they hope will be better for their interests versus graduation.

8 of the top 40 guys in the portal so far have chosen new teams. We need to add 6 as good or better players to get back what we lost...let alone improve. Maybe don't wanna wait too much longer to add at least one of the top 50 guys?
Battle #8. (You know the guy, we won't miss...#8)
Cooper #38
Henley #89
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There is a lot of work to do but we don't need to add 6 new guys. In addition to the guys who have played that will be back (Garcia, JOJ, Carrington, Payne) there are an additional 4 "new" faces already in place in Fox, Ihnen, Betts, and Christie. Lots of unknowns with those 4 but they could all provide a really nice boost for next season.

Johnson has to nail it with the transfers he brings in but IF he finds a couple of good guards it will not be hard for this team to improve on this past season. The bar is incredibly low.
 







DarthGopher said:
In the Season That Never Was, we had Jackson and Harris - one of the best backcourt tandems in the country. Complimenting them were Jacobson and Lewis who were also competent ball handlers. I'd say that worked out quite well, even if it never officially happened.

Harris was as steady as they came. The guy rarely got rattled and was a lock down defender. Jackson could just decide to take over the game, and often did.

Damnit, now I'm all emotional....
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According to some on here.....guys like Eric Harris couldn't hack it at the P5 level (2 ppg as a freshman....4 ppg as a sophomore). Imagine if the 97 team didn't have him?? Imagine if he wasn't allowed to develop? I say this to the people who don't want guys like Holloman and King because they were backups at MSU and ISU.
 

DarthGopher said:
The Hollins's were very solid, as were those players you mentioned. Take any of those guys and put them on this team, let alone two of them, and the season probably looks a bit different. If I'm Ben, I am finding two 'dudes', or at least one dude and a dude junior. Burn the damn boats if necessary. Get good guards!
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It’s funny, but Pitino was able to convince both Andre and Austin to stay at Minnesota through the transition from Tubby. Yes, I know the portal with its unfettered transfer movement didn’t exist at that point, but both could have transferred the traditional way and chose not to. Pitino went 25-13 and won the NIT the next year because of it. To me it’s still unusual how/why Ben wasn’t able to retain any of the more talented players from Pitino’s roster to give him a stronger foundation.
 

cheeseheadgophfan said:
According to some on here.....guys like Eric Harris couldn't hack it at the P5 level (2 ppg as a freshman....4 ppg as a sophomore). Imagine if the 97 team didn't have him?? Imagine if he wasn't allowed to develop? I say this to the people who don't want guys like Holloman and King because they were backups at MSU and ISU.
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What made Harris so good in his jr and sr years was that he was A) a great defender B) he took care of the ball and C) he was the perfect fit for Bobby Jackson who was fantastic with the ball in his hands. Harris was more than happy to facilitate Jackson and then Harris learned to only take- and make the wide open jumpers.

We have a lot of posters here who cannot see past what is right in front of them. Players develop- which is why teams always try to strategically get older.
 

WindyCityGopher said:
Yes, I know the portal with its unfettered transfer movement didn’t exist at that point, but both could have transferred the traditional way and chose not to.
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You say that as if the changed transfer environment isn't such a big deal. It was an enormous change!

I don't know the size of the transfer portal on 2013 but, according to Verbal Commits, it was 469 in 2016. It was over 1700 the past two years. Having to sit out a year was far less attractive to the player and also diminished the player's value in the transfer market. Back then the sought after transfers were grad transfers because they were the only major group granted blanket immediate eligibility.
 
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cjbfbp said:
You say that as if the changed transfer environment isn't such a big deal. It was an enormous change!

I don't know the size of the transfer portal on 2013 but, according to Verbal Commits, it was 469 in 2016. It was over 1700 the past two years. Having to sit out a year was far less attractive to the player and also diminished the player's value in the transfer market. Back then the sought after transfers were grad transfers because they were the only major group granted blanket immediate eligibility.
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Yeah, there really is no comparison between player movement now and player movement in the past. There have always been transfers but not anywhere close to the level we are seeing now.

Just watching NCAA tournament games you constantly here them referring to where a player transferred from, was that way in football as well.

The roster churn in basketball and football is off the charts right now.
 


WindyCityGopher said:
It’s funny, but Pitino was able to convince both Andre and Austin to stay at Minnesota through the transition from Tubby. Yes, I know the portal with its unfettered transfer movement didn’t exist at that point, but both could have transferred the traditional way and chose not to. Pitino went 25-13 and won the NIT the next year because of it. To me it’s still unusual how/why Ben wasn’t able to retain any of the more talented players from Pitino’s roster to give him a stronger foundation.
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Diffident people are the worst sales people.
 

WindyCityGopher said:
It’s funny, but Pitino was able to convince both Andre and Austin to stay at Minnesota through the transition from Tubby. Yes, I know the portal with its unfettered transfer movement didn’t exist at that point, but both could have transferred the traditional way and chose not to. Pitino went 25-13 and won the NIT the next year because of it. To me it’s still unusual how/why Ben wasn’t able to retain any of the more talented players from Pitino’s roster to give him a stronger foundation.
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Obviously 2 horrible years with Ben at the helm, but the Andre and Austin situation isn’t the same. Totally different climate. Compare him taking this over to other coaches in the same time frame and you will find enough evidence to support your point.
 

RockChalk said:
The Gopher have the worst coaching in the league. Does that work for you?
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Assuming that is true, what can any poster on this board do about that?

Do you think if we all scream, stomp our feet, and pump our fists in the air for a period of time, they'll fire the coach immediately?

An angry attitude and $3.00 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.
 

cjbfbp said:
Assuming that is true, what can any poster on this board do about that?

Do you think if we all scream, stomp our feet, and pump our fists in the air for a period of time, they'll fire the coach immediately?

An angry attitude and $3.00 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.
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Obviously people are free to post what they want but I really don't get what the fire Johnson now crowd thinks they are accomplishing at this point.
 

MNVCGUY said:
Obviously people are free to post what they want but I really don't get what the fire Johnson now crowd thinks they are accomplishing at this point.
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None of us here can "accomplish" anything. It's a message board, do you think you are accomplishing something by saying we need to give him more time and we could be ok? It's our opinion, same as yours. We all want the same thing and honestly nothing much any of us can actually do.
 

leib0039 said:
None of us here can "accomplish" anything. It's a message board, do you think you are accomplishing something by saying we need to give him more time and we could be ok? It's our opinion, same as yours. We all want the same thing and honestly nothing much any of us can actually do.
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I think discussing ways it could improve is way more interesting than just repeatedly saying the only solution is fire the coach....which clearly isn't going to happen until next year around this time at the earliest.
 

MNVCGUY said:
I think discussing ways it could improve is way more interesting than just repeatedly saying the only solution is fire the coach....which clearly isn't going to happen until next year around this time at the earliest.
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I agree he's not getting fired, but I also think the only way it could improve is to fire him ha. Hopefully I am wrong!
 

leib0039 said:
I agree he's not getting fired, but I also think the only way it could improve is to fire him ha. Hopefully I am wrong!
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Looks like you are in for a frustrating year then :)
 

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