Was MN ever a helmet school and if so, when did it end?

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Minnesota is considered a dead blueblood, like Army and Penn.

This does a decent job of illustrating the elites via AP presence, 1936 being the first year: https://collegefootball.ap.org/top-100

This chart tells a nice, quick story, although it is somewhat limited, being based only on AP presence. You could probably consider that upper-right cluster the true, modern blue bloods.
XOJOmEu.jpg


I have seen other formulas that take into account national championships, Hiesman winners, etc. I'll try to track that down.
 
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tmvander said:
How many helmet schools can you even say there are currently?
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One of the things we constantly hear is how all the 5☆ recruits always go to the helmet schools.

Perhaps someone with the knowledge and ability to sort rosters by star ratings would give us an idea.

Draw a line in the sand like this "if 50% (75%?) or more of the 85 scholarship players are 4☆ or 5☆, then they qualify as a "helmet" school.

Because rosters are built over 5 years this would show sustainability and schools with a few of these players are outliers and would not qualify for the "title"

Anybody want to give it a shot?

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Here’s my list of helmet schools. Some of them are in a slump, but they’ll be back eventually.

Alabama
LSU
Florida
Georgia
Auburn
Clemson
Miami
Florida State
Ohio State
Michigan
Penn State
Oklahoma
Texas
USC
Notre Dame


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metrolax said:
I've never liked the term "helmet school", but here's my take...... The gophers, through 1969, were still considered to be one of the nation's elite
programs, but were on their way to decline by the end of that season. BY 1970-71, something was wrong and outsiders could see it. The lack of
commitment from the school was starting to show.

Remember, the 1960's were a time of great balance in the Big Ten. Just about everyone had their shot at the top at one point or another, but the
Gophers won at least a share of the title in 1960 and 1967, should have won it in 1962, and were ranked as late at 1968. They won the Natty in 1960
and went to two Rose Bowls. After 1969, the Gophers were, historically, considered alongside Michigan and Ohio State as the three top traditional powers
in the Big Ten, and conference titles, all-time wins, etc could back that up. They were in the top ten in those things.

Bear Bryant looked over the Big Ten landscape in 1970 and made that statement "There's something wrong in the Land of the Giants" when surveying
Minnesota. From the league's earliest days they had been a factor, and now were falling behind Ohio State and Michigan due to neglect. Had the school
decided to support football as those two had, the 1970s and beyond would have look entirely different. AS it was, OSU and Michigan were the only two
schools in the league that continued to make that commitment and the league became known as the Big Ten and Little Eight. Granted, Minnesota was
usually at the top of the Little Eight for the most part, but people noticed the drop-off.

Through the 70's, 80's, and 90's every Gopher coach had to work dragging a tire behind them. In the mid-70s, multiple Big Ten teams could now go to
bowl games to help bring the Little Eight up through incentives. It worked, of course and the league became very balanced again, but while schools like
Iowa and Illinois were going to Rose Bowls, Minnesota was hiring presidents who suggested replacing football with soccer. In the 80's, cable TV made college
football more visible than ever, and Minnesota's chance to shine again was lost. By the 90's, even 6 wins could get you to a bowl game in the Big Ten, which
would have made Minnesota more visible, but the Wacker years failed to make even one. I remember one publication asking "Do they even still play football there?"

So, thru the 70s, 80s, and 90s, the Gophers had their chances to become visible and relevant again but decided to run the program on the cheap compared to
their conference rivals, who were benefiting from the multiple bowl games, cable TV games, and the lowering of bowl standards. When they hired Mason they decided
to do a little bit more, but it was still below average in the Big Ten. Finally, they got smart and found how much opportunity cost they were incurring by playing in
the Dome and got the stadium built. The Brewster years sent them out onto that track with a big flat tire (I know, how many opportunities can a school blow? Its
almost like they were TRYING to screw things up) and didn't get it straight until the Kill/Claeys era, when the Gophers became good again. You know the rest from there.
The U has had only itself to blame for its fall from the heights, but it appears to again be making the investment.
Click to expand...

Was Cal Stoll considered an elite hire or was this the beginning of going on the cheap for head coaches?
 


If you asked the most casual of casual fans to pick the top 25, I'd say those are helmet schools. People keep talking about them even after they've really faded. They still are part of the national conversation, and if they have a few bad years, most people imagine they'll be back. People tend to imagine that the future will look more or less like the past. There's a "glow" that some teams have and that can take a few years to fade away.
 

PitinoFan said:
Here’s my list of helmet schools. Some of them are in a slump, but they’ll be back eventually.

Alabama
LSU
Florida
Georgia
Auburn
Clemson
Miami
Florida State
Ohio State
Michigan
Penn State
Oklahoma
Texas
USC
Notre Dame


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Click to expand...

This is a pretty decent list. I could be encouraged to add the following teams:

Oregon
Wisconsin

My only thought on Notre Dame is "Do they belong?" I'm not so sure. They are closer to Oregon, Wisconsin and Nebraska than they are to Ohio State in status.

Any school where the football budget is twice the rest of the school's sports budgets is pretty much a helmet school.
 

Cal Stoll was considered a decent hire. He’d been a top assistant coach to Duffy Daugherty during Michigan State’s very good mid 1950s to late 1960s run. He was ACC Coach of the Year in 1970 in his second season at Wake Forest and had a winning overall record in 1971 before coming to Minnesota. Joe Salem was a very good Division II coach at South Dakota and Northern Arizona and before then had been a Gopher player and assistant to Murray Warmath. I think the decision to elevate the uncharismatic and uninspiring John Gutekunst and then sticking with him after the disastrous 1988 season was the big misstep. There was a chance to get someone better after Lou Holtz and it was squandered.
 

To close the loop, Jim Wacker had won National Championships at Texas Lutheran and Southwest Texas State and made the playoff semifinals twice at North Dakota State. My recollection is his U of M hiring didn’t fire anyone up. He’d had two winning seasons out of nine at TCU which at the time wasn’t at all committed to doing well at football and was viewed as a program that played at Division I-A out of tradition rather than anything else. There were extenuating circumstances with heavy probation due to corrupt boosters leading to the first winning season and Wacker turned the program into the NCAA himself upon learning what was happening. I think the issue was he wasn’t a big name and his lack of success at the top level compared to smaller schools left people thinking he would be out of his league in the Big Ten.
 



Otis said:
This is a pretty decent list. I could be encouraged to add the following teams:

Oregon
Wisconsin

My only thought on Notre Dame is "Do they belong?" I'm not so sure. They are closer to Oregon, Wisconsin and Nebraska than they are to Ohio State in status.

Any school where the football budget is twice the rest of the school's sports budgets is pretty much a helmet school.
Click to expand...

Wisconsin has been close too many times, only to lose the big game for me to consider them. Plus, they’ve never won a NC.

I thought about Oregon, but I don’t think they have the same mystique as those on my list. Also, no NC in their history. They’re close.


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My simple definition of a helmet school, is a school that can just plunk down it's helmet on a recruits table and say "you know who we are and what we are, you in or what?".

Might be too simple of a definition. But basically a school that can just "show up" and recruit well. Nebraska kinda fits that definition, in the sense that they really haven't done squat and have been through several head coaches since the last time they were nationally relevant.

But people might also have an expectation about dominance on the field, and so Nebraska wouldn't fit that definition in a modern context.



The awesome chart in post #31 (thanks theTurning !) is badly in need of a 3rd dimension, which would show the trend/evolution over time. IE, like stated, it would show programs like Penn, Army, Minnesota, high up decades ago but then dropping off as we approach modern times.
 

Otis said:
This is a pretty decent list. I could be encouraged to add the following teams:

Oregon
Wisconsin

My only thought on Notre Dame is "Do they belong?" I'm not so sure. They are closer to Oregon, Wisconsin and Nebraska than they are to Ohio State in status.

Any school where the football budget is twice the rest of the school's sports budgets is pretty much a helmet school.
Click to expand...

My thoughts on Notre Dame - they are maybe in a class of their own in status. It is a national brand. People that do not even watch football know what Notre Dame is. Notre Dame could go 0 and whatever next year and could still pull in one of the better recruiting classes in the country.
 



Notre Dame is probably the #1 helmet school in the history of college football. They don’t even need to win a NC or make the playoffs to retain this status. If they were to really go in the tank for a couple decades, they could be reduced to Nebraska’s level, but that’s not going to happen.


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Regarding the Cal Stoll question, the firing of Murray Warmath coincided with Paul Giel's appointment as AD. Cal Stoll was a candidate from the beginning and I forgot to note he was a former Gopher player. Frank Kush of Arizona State, which then was in the WAC and was equivalent to Boise State now as the elite non power conference team, was a name mentioned early on. Ron Erhardt, then coach at North Dakota State and later of the New England Patriots, also got a look. Stoll's hiring was generally well received by the Minneapolis Tribune and Minneapolis Star. He originally told Wake Forest he would stay, but then Harvey Mackay got involved and the offer to Stoll was sweetened, leading to him accepting the position. Stoll had turned down Maryland and also Florida State, the latter of which was definitely not a helmet school at the time.

After Cal Stoll got fired, Joe Salem was immediately a top candidate to replace him. He was only 40 at the time, was a former Gopher player and assistant, and had done well in the lower divisions. In an interesting way history could have changed, he was rumored to be in the running for the Iowa job that ultimately went to Hayden Fry. Monte Kiffin, an assistant coach to Lou Holtz at Arkansas and father of Lane Kiffin, was in the running as was Tom Moore who was a former Gopher and Steelers assistant at the time. Salem and Kiffin were the finalists along with Rudy Hubbard. Hubbard had been a player and then an assistant to Woody Hayes at Ohio State. He took over Florida A&M in 1974 and eventually led the Rattlers to the NCAA Division 1-AA National Championship in 1978. The Salem hire was greeted enthusiastically. During the coaching search the papers told fans that the new hire would not be coming from a power school and would be an assistant or lower division HC, so there was definitely a setting of expectations to avoid disappointment along the lines of Maturi foolishly making the "Tubby Smith type hire" comment that doomed the Jerry Kill hiring announcement to getting reactions of disappointment.
 

I had completely forgotten that prior to giving John Gutekunst the job in late 1985, Lou Holtz was originally expected to coach through the Independence Bowl and the Gophers looked around a bit before settling on Gutey. Steelers assistant Tom Moore openly stated his desire for the job once again. Tony Dungy, then defensive coordinator for the Steelers got an interview, but it doesn't look like he was seriously considered. Gutey threw his hat in the ring early on. The job was offered to Bobby Ross. Ross was then the coach of Maryland and would go on to coach Georgia Tech, the Chargers, the Lions, and Army. Ross stayed at Maryland and Gutey got the gig. Ross turned down the offer, which would have constituted a raise over his Maryland pay, because in Ross' words "I just sensed there was a real deep resentment". Ross added that it wasn't so much from the players that it bothered him, because he expected them to be upset and wary of an outsider. To him it was Minnesota media members pulling for Gutekunst that were cool to him and he claimed misquoted him that led him to say no. Gutekunst was immediately given the job and what Holtz had started would soon be undone.
 

The three candidates in late 1991 to replace John Gutekunst were Jim Wacker, Skip Hall then the coach at Boise State which was a Division I-AA power at the time, and...Glen Mason whose turnaround at Kansas was underway but hadn't yet hit full stride. Maryland was after Mason too and him seeking other jobs was seen in the Kansas and Minnesota media as him trying to get more money out of KU while also getting his name out for better jobs later. Mo Forte, a former Gopher who had HC experience with HBCUs and was a Broncos assistant was in the mix. There was no great media enthusiasm for any of these guys and the Wacker hiring was seen as the best of a weak crop. Bob Stein was on the search committee and actually thought they could entice Tom Osborne to come here. Even Sid Hartman mocked that idea in his column. Bill Snyder had just had his first winning season at Kansas State after the Wildcats had 4 winning seasons in the previous 44. However, as a former Hayden Fry assistant at Iowa, he was said to have no interest in coming here due to a knowledge of all the obstacles facing a Gopher head coach (the Dome, bad attendance, lots of competition for the sports fan dollar and attention, poor support from the U of M administration, and so on). Wacker took the Gopher job in good part because he wanted a shot at the Big Ten and the Southwest Conference was starting to crumble and at the time TCU wasn't getting a spot afterwards in a major conference.
 

Back to the "Helmet School" question.

from my point of view, there are traditional Helmet schools - Notre Dame, Alabama, etc that even casual fans associate with college football. They may have a down year from time to time, but retain their Helmet school status on tradition.

Then there are schools that become Helmet schools through on-field success - Clemson, for example.

and in a 3rd category, there are schools that lose their helmet school status by going into a longer decline. The Gophers would be an example - definitely a 'Helmet School' in the 40's and again in the early 60's - but lost their status in the late 60's.

so, I would say the roster of Helmet Schools will shift from time to time, but I would say typically has about 10-15 teams in active status.

As far as the Gophers becoming a Helmet School again - that is going to take some major accomplishments - Conference titles, major Bowl game wins or Playoff appearances - over at least a 4 or 5-year period.
 

Interesting reads thanks sports realist! I love learning deep details on gophers coaches and administrators!
 

Brandon said:
Interesting reads thanks sports realist! I love learning deep details on gophers coaches and administrators!
Click to expand...

I second that! Sounds like there were some windows of opportunity that slipped away. Hopefully, we won't let that happen this time.
 

OSU
Michigan
Alabama
Notre Dame
LSU
Georgia
Oklahoma
Texas

I think if their helmet is instantly recognizable to most in the country its a helmet school...or iconic helmets too I guess.
 


And Michigan is unique in that they are a Helmet School - and also on the list of Ugliest Helmets in College football. That's a hard daily double to pull off.
 

gopherbadgerman said:
OSU
Michigan
Alabama
Notre Dame
LSU
Georgia
Oklahoma
Texas

I think if their helmet is instantly recognizable to most in the country its a helmet school...or iconic helmets too I guess.
Click to expand...

I've never liked that definition because IMO, nearly all P5 teams and many G5 teams are instantly recognizable by looking only at their helmet.

I think most every casual CFB fan would be able to recognize Purdue, Indiana, Kansas, Texas Tech, even Rutgers etc. by just looking at their typical helmets. I mean plenty of helmets have the name or abbreviation of the school on the helmet. Every single person in America would recognize UCF by their helmets because it says "UCF" on them.

Maybe 60 years ago that was the case when very few games were nationally televised but IMO I think it's an outdated definition/term.
 

theTurning said:
Minnesota is considered a dead blueblood, like Army and Penn.

This does a decent job of illustrating the elites via AP presence, 1936 being the first year: https://collegefootball.ap.org/top-100

This chart tells a nice, quick story, although it is somewhat limited, being based only on AP presence. You could probably consider that upper-right cluster the true, modern blue bloods.
XOJOmEu.jpg


I have seen other formulas that take into account national championships, Hiesman winners, etc. I'll try to track that down.
Click to expand...

Great chart. If one was to redo this chart and place heavier weight on recent years, it would look a little different especially in the next rung down. Clemson, LSU, and Georgia probably replace Nebraska, USC, Texas, Michigan and maybe Notre Dame.
 

gopherbadgerman said:
OSU
Michigan
Alabama
Notre Dame
LSU
Georgia
Oklahoma
Texas

I think if their helmet is instantly recognizable to most in the country its a helmet school...or iconic helmets too I guess.
Click to expand...

Georgia- no
Add: USC, Penn St.
 

I apologize for hijacking the thread with the coaching search posts, but they do tie into the question of whether we were once a helmet school. I don't like the helmet school term and prefer legacy program instead, referring to those programs that are good year in and year out and can withstand downtimes to come back as strong or stronger. The continuing lowering of expectations in our successive coach searches shows how we drifted away from whatever legacy status we had in the late 1960s.

Jim Wacker resigned with two games to go in 1996, but saw out the season with a win over Illinois and a loss to Iowa. Mark Deinhart ran the coaching search himself, not using a committee or outside search firm. The day after Wacker stepped down, the Star Tribune ran a list of 10 candidates it deemed plausible or who had at least been mentioned.

- Bob Stoops was then a 36 year old former Iowa player and assistant who helped Bill Snyder raise Kansas State from nothing and was assistant head coach and DC at Florida.

- Walt Harris was then an Ohio State assistant and would later be head coach at Pittsburgh and Stanford.

- Ron Cooper was head coach at Louisville and had been a graduate assistant for the Gophers under Lou Holtz.

- Bob Davie was DC at Notre Dame. Lou Holtz would also down after the 1996 season, although he hadn't yet, and Davie got the Notre Dame job.

- Frank Beamer was in his 10th season at Virginia Tech and had the Hokies in line for a second straight major bowl bid. There was thought he'd feel he'd done all he could there and would want to move on.

- Jim Tressel was at Youngstown State and from 1991 to 1994 won 3 NCAA Division I-AA National Titles and was runner up in the other year. A big school was coming for him eventually and his brother Dick was in town as the head coach at Hamline.

- Joe Tiller had Wyoming en route to a 10-2 season in 1996. He was a former Purdue assistant and that's where he went in 1997.

- Bill Snyder was on a huge roll at Kansas State which had been the worst major conference team in college football by some distance before he took over. That he wasn't interested post Gutekunst wasn't noted.

- Bud Grant actually came up with people suggesting he takeover for two seasons to stabilize the things, whatever that was supposed to mean, with presumably an up and coming assistant as his right hand man and designated successor.

- Lou Holtz was listed mainly as a goof so a the writer could work in a Luther Darville joke.

Glen Mason wasn't named in that piece, but was in an accompanying article that named him as one of the usual suspects for when a job opened up. Also named in this category were Washington State head coach Mike Price, Utah head coach Ron McBride, Bowling Green head coach Gary Blackney, and Toledo and later Missouri head coach Gary Pinkel.

Eventually Marc Trestman, then OC for the 49ers, emerged as the top contender. Terry Allen of Northern Iowa got an interview and he'd eventually replace Mason at Kansas. Price, Stoops, and Colorado State head coach Sonny Lubick all had interviews in person while Frank Solich, soon to replace his boss Tom Osborne at Nebraska, had a phone interview. Negotiations with Trestman sank over money. He wanted $500,000 per season and the U of M offered $400,000. Dienhart tried to put the money thing aside by stating Trestman withdrew because he wanted to pursue his career in the NFL. Bob Stoops was apparently offered the job too, but supposedly had to turn it down because Steve Spurrier wouldn't let him leave before Florida played and beat Florida State in the Sugar Bowl to win the National Championship.

As late as the day before he was named head coach, Glen Mason didn't even seem to be in the running. The Star Tribune literally didn't print his name in the morning edition on the day he was named for the job. Interestingly, his base pay was listed as the amount Trestman apparently wanted and was denied. In a move I think he later regretted, Mason accepted the Georgia job after the 1995 season and Frank Solich was lined up to take over in Lawrence, but Mason had a change of heart and went back to KU. That turn of events spoiled the mood in Kansas for Mason. The first paragraph in the Sports section noted he was said to be "glib and charming" but as a coach "was said to lack savvy and aplomb".

Mason hadn't liked the 1991 search that led to Jim Wacker getting hired, feeling he'd been jerked around and told Dienhart to call "when he got serious". Mason was named on a Friday and didn't start speaking seriously with the U of M until the Monday of that week. Negotiations were done by phone and kept quiet. The local media here and in Kansas had no idea what was up until the announcement. It seemed to come down to Dienhart having talked to enough guys that either wouldn't come, couldn't come or he didn't want to come that he got serious and came around to Mason.
 
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there's really only 2 helmet schools: michigan and notre dame. one can't become a helmet school and one doesn't cease to be helmet school. being a helmet school require an extended history of winning (not just decades, but century long), and it requires a unique and recognizable helmet that hasn't changed in that century. then there are interlopers.
 

Sports_Realist said:
I apologize for hijacking the thread with the coaching search posts, but they do tie into the question of whether we were once a helmet school. I don't like the helmet school term and prefer legacy program instead, referring to those programs that are good year in and year out and can withstand downtimes to come back as strong or stronger. The continuing lowering of expectations in our successive coach searches shows how we drifted away from whatever legacy status we had in the late 1960s.

Jim Wacker resigned with two games to go in 1996, but saw out the season with a win over Illinois and a loss to Iowa. Mark Deinhart ran the coaching search himself, not using a committee or outside search firm. The day after Wacker stepped down, the Star Tribune ran a list of 10 candidates it deemed plausible or who had at least been mentioned.

- Bob Stoops was then a 36 year old former Iowa player and assistant who helped Bill Snyder raise Kansas State from nothing and was assistant head coach and DC at Florida.

- Walt Harris was then an Ohio State assistant and would later be head coach at Pittsburgh and Stanford.

- Ron Cooper was head coach at Louisville and had been a graduate assistant for the Gophers under Lou Holtz.

- Bob Davie was DC at Notre Dame. Lou Holtz would also down after the 1996 season, although he hadn't yet, and Davie got the Notre Dame job.

- Frank Beamer was in his 10th season at Virginia Tech and had the Hokies in line for a second straight major bowl bid. There was thought he'd feel he'd done all he could there and would want to move on.

- Jim Tressel was at Youngstown State and from 1991 to 1994 won 3 NCAA Division I-AA National Titles and was runner up in the other year. A big school was coming for him eventually and his brother Dick was in town as the head coach at Hamline.

- Joe Tiller had Wyoming en route to a 10-2 season in 1996. He was a former Purdue assistant and that's where he went in 1997.

- Bill Snyder was on a huge roll at Kansas State which had been the worst major conference team in college football by some distance before he took over. That he wasn't interested post Gutekunst wasn't noted.

- Bud Grant actually came up with people suggesting he takeover for two seasons to stabilize the things, whatever that was supposed to mean, with presumably an up and coming assistant as his right hand man and designated successor.

- Lou Holtz was listed mainly as a goof so a the writer could work in a Luther Darville joke.

Glen Mason wasn't named in that piece, but was in an accompanying article that named him as one of the usual suspects for when a job opened up. Also named in this category were Washington State head coach Mike Price, Utah head coach Ron McBride, Bowling Green head coach Gary Blackney, and Toledo and later Missouri head coach Gary Pinkel.

Eventually Marc Trestman, then OC for the 49ers, emerged as the top contender. Terry Allen of Northern Iowa got an interview and he'd eventually replace Mason at Kansas. Price, Stoops, and Colorado State head coach Sonny Lubick all had interviews in person while Frank Solich, soon to replace his boss Tom Osborne at Nebraska, had a phone interview. Negotiations with Trestman sank over money. He wanted $500,000 per season and the U of M offered $400,000. Dienhart tried to put the money thing aside by stating Trestman withdrew because he wanted to pursue his career in the NFL. Bob Stoops was apparently offered the job too, but supposedly had to turn it down because Steve Spurrier wouldn't let him leave before Florida played and beat Florida State in the Sugar Bowl to win the National Championship.

As late as the day before he was named head coach, Glen Mason didn't even seem to be in the running. The Star Tribune literally didn't print his name in the morning edition on the day he was named for the job. Interestingly, his base pay was listed as the amount Trestman apparently wanted and was denied. In a move I think he later regretted, Mason accepted the Georgia job after the 1995 season and Frank Solich was lined up to take over in Lawrence, but Mason had a change of heart and went back to KU. That turn of events spoiled the mood in Kansas for Mason. The first paragraph in the Sports section noted he was said to be "glib and charming" but as a coach "was said to lack savvy and aplomb".

Mason hadn't liked the 1991 search that led to Jim Wacker getting hired, feeling he'd been jerked around and told Dienhart to call "when he got serious". Mason was named on a Friday and didn't start speaking seriously with the U of M until the Monday of that week. Negotiations were done by phone and kept quiet. The local media here and in Kansas had no idea what was up until the announcement. It seemed to come down to Dienhart having talked to enough guys that either wouldn't come, couldn't come or he didn't want to come that he got serious and came around to Mason.
Click to expand...

I remember the bar was so low by 1996 that expectation going into the season was that Wacker only had to win 5 games to keep his job. Fortunately, he did the honorable thing and resigned, even though he still had a chance to get to 5 wins.
 

gopherbadgerman said:
OSU
Michigan
Alabama
Notre Dame
LSU
Georgia
Oklahoma
Texas

I think if their helmet is instantly recognizable to most in the country its a helmet school...or iconic helmets too I guess.
Click to expand...


I think if you're putting LSU on the list, then Auburn has to be on the list as well.

Auburn has more national championships than LSU, including a more recent NC, 2010 vs. 2007. AU also has 3 Heisman trophy winners, most recently Cam Newton in 2010, vs. only 1 for LSU. And their helmet is instantly recognizable.
 

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