Tubby's record vs. Brewster's record

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Bob_Loblaw said:
You are completely right, I wasn't trying to insinuate that the Gophers won't make the NCAAs this year (i said probably 50/50). My question was IF they don't make the NCAA's this year (but I forgot the IF)....

I do agree that the NCAA is probably a tad better of an accomplishment than the Insight. However, you can only compare compare Big 10 teams against each other. The way basketball is set up, the "there is 300 NCAA Div.1 basketball teams argument" is illogical. There are a lot more conferences in basketball that will get 1 out of 12 teams (it's almost like counting Div.1aa in the total of football teams).

But the point is that if you go .500 in the Big 10 in either sport, you will get into the tournament. To go to the Insight Bowl, you will need to finish at worst a bit below .500 (1 game difference), so I do agree that it is a a bigger accomplish. However, it isn't a head and shoulders argument. To look at barely getting into the NCAA's as an astounding accomplishment and then to call going to the Insight Bowl not an accomplishment at all is putting a world of importance into 1 football game.
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I see your point. Wasn't trying to flame you or anything. Personally, I kind of equate it to making the NIT for the simple reason that there are a lot of power conference teams that finish between 6-12 and 9-9 who end up in the NIT. Personally, I kind of equate going 3-5 in the Big Ten in football to finishing somewhere between 6-12 and 8-10 in Big Ten basketball , which almost certainly won't get anybody to the NCAA Tournament. But that's about as far as I like to go with the comparison. There's just too many x-factors in the structure of the two sports and how they are constituted to make a definite comparison either way.
 

DMB123 said:
Brewster took an average program and made them slightly worse. Tubby took a terrible program that was at rock bottom and made them good in one season. Get a clue.
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DMB123 said:
About to make their 2nd straight NCAA appearance in Tubby's 3rd season. Took a team that went 9-21 in Monson's last year to a 20-14 record in Tubby's first year with basically the same team (added Hoffarber and Nolan, but as freshman they were both very average players).
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I think Smith is getting a free pass. This year's team has not improved at all from last year. Their point guards are shakey, they have no "go to" scorer and their foul shooting is PATHETIC. He lost HALF of his recruits. Iverson and sampson are the only really improved players. They will do no better than 9-9 in the BT and will exit quickly from the BT Tourney. No NCAA bid.

Time will tell with both these guys, but I'd say they're about even right now...
 

highwayman said:
I think Smith is getting a free pass. This year's team has not improved at all from last year. Their point guards are shakey, they have no "go to" scorer and their foul shooting is PATHETIC. He lost HALF of his recruits. Iverson and sampson are the only really improved players. They will do no better than 9-9 in the BT and will exit quickly from the BT Tourney. No NCAA bid.

Time will tell with both these guys, but I'd say they're about even right now...
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Tubby came to Minny with a substantial tailwind, Brewster had headwinds...esp from local media geniuses.

Tubby had years of successful HCing experience at multiple stops, Brewster had years of position coaching and no HCing.

Tubby came with a NC ring as HC, Brewster came with NC dreams as HC.

Tubby got a big pay check, Brewster substantially less.

Both are above-average recruiters and in-state/national program promoters based on what Minny had in the previous regime.

Even if Brewster had 1 or 2 more wins in each of his three seasons, I wonder if the media/forum venom would subside in any material way versus the aura of Tubby's inherent golden glow.

Seems to me that if Tubby doesn't produce big results in the next few years, there will be a lot more disappointment on the bb-side than on the fb-side given the more modest expectations for Brewster & Co.
 

Bowl Game vs. NCAA BB Tourney

Thank you guys for bringing up the fact that everyone in this town gets up off their feet and applauds when the basketball team makes the NCAA but yet it turns its nose at making a bowl game.

The fact is that 6-7 teams from the Big Ten make both bowl games and the NCAA at times....the 300 teams in D1 BB is misleading since only the winners from certain conferences get automatic bids.

It is NEVER bad to go to a bowl game...it's okay to be mad at not making a better bowl (but even then the gophers have gotten screwed by bowls taking worse teams), but never be mad for making it to a 13th game.

The media in this town need to read this thread...I bet it never occurs to them that there are about the same number of bowl teams as NCAA BB Tourney teams.
 

There is no comparison between Tubby and Brewster.
Tubby is a proven coach he rebuilt Tulsa and Georgia just like he is rebuilding here.
he took the WORST team in school history, a team that lost to Winona St., Marist, Montana, and Arkansas Little Rock and with the same team plus 2 freshman in Hoff and Nolan won 20 games, and last year they beat the #1 overall seed in the tournament on a neutral court and took them to the NCAA tournament, which no one every thought would be possible right after Monson was fired. He's taken players like Damien Johnson that looked like they didn't belong on any D-1 roster and turned him into a very good D-1 player. He's recruited two straight top 25 recruiting classes and could make it a 3rd straight if he lands Cory Joseph. Not going to talk about this year because you can't say anything until the season plays out.

Brewster took over a team that went to a bowl the year before and turned the Gophers into the WORST team in school history. He lost to Bowling green at home, Florida Atlantic on the road, and somehow managed to lose to NDSU at the dome. The only game they won was in OT to Miami Ohio because their kicker missed a chip shot. The 2nd year they played 4 pathetic non conference games they won all 4 barely beating might Northern Illinois. They won 3 games in conference against all bad teams, choked against Wisconsin, and got beaten as bad as possible against Iowa and then got smoked in the bowl game. This year the offense without Decker was the most pathetic thing I have ever seen, and has made Weber into a terrible QB with no confidence. Their best win is at Northwestern and that was before Northwestern started playing good.

So as you can see there is no comparison whatsoever between the two. And I agree it takes longer to rebuild a football team but only great basketball coaches can quickly rebuild programs that were as bad as Minnesota was when Monson was fired.
 


Regarding the bowls vs. the NCAA tournament. Has there even been a question of whether there would be enough teams even eligible for the NCAA tournament? The bowls are watered down, plain and simple. The Insight Bowl is equivalent to the NIT, if even that.
 

From the Barn said:
Regarding the bowls vs. the NCAA tournament. Has there even been a question of whether there would be enough teams even eligible for the NCAA tournament? The bowls are watered down, plain and simple. The Insight Bowl is equivalent to the NIT, if even that.
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Mathematically and statistically it is closer than you think. Your statement about questioning (if even that) of whether the Insight is equivelent to the NIT is way off base.

The Bowls are absolutely watered down, however, it is not anything more than an average year that gets you into the NCAA tournament. A team who is the definition of average (.500) in the Big 10 will usually get into the tournament. The Gophers went a game under .500 (so I already initially said that the tourney is slightly more prestigious than the Insight Bowl), however had the Gophers won 1 more game, they would have been in the Alamo Bowl. A bad bowl and barely getting into the tournament are statistically similar seasons.

However, to the people pointing out Tubby's resume, I am not saying that Tubby is doing a better job. Tubby has earned the benefit of the doubt because of prior years of success. I have more trust in Tubby, and he has also done slightly better than Brewster.
My argument is this:
(1) Mason and Monson were about equivelents at the U of MN....peaked at same point and had almost identical Big 10 records (Mason's was .400, Monson's was .393).
(2) Outside of year 1, they have done about the same over the past two seasons (presuming the Gophers go .500 this year in the Big 10).
(3) IF the Gophers don't make the NCAA's this year, the difference between going to the tournament in 1 out of 3 years and a football coach going to the Insight in 2 out of 3 years, isn't that far apart.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
A team who is the definition of average (.500) in the Big 10 will usually get into the tournament.
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Except not really.

Last year Penn State had a winning conference record and didn't go to the tournament. Same for OSU two years ago, in '07 Michigan was 8-8 and in the NIT and Iowa was 9-7 and in the NIT, in 2006 Michigan was 8-8 again and didn't get in. In 2005 was it was OSU not getting in, In 2004 Michigan, Iowa, and Northwestern all were .500, none got in. In 2003 the Gophers were 8-8 and stayed home. In 2002 the Gophers were 9-6 and didn't get in.

So which is easier to get into with a .500 conference record, a mediocre bowl or the NCAA basketball tournament?
 

tubby

TUBBY HAS MULTIPLE WINS AGAINST RANKED OPPONENTS

BREWSTER DOES NOT AND HAS YET TO WIN A TROPHY GAME
 




Gopher00 said:
There is no comparison between Tubby and Brewster.
Tubby is a proven coach he rebuilt Tulsa and Georgia just like he is rebuilding here.
he took the WORST team in school history, a team that lost to Winona St., Marist, Montana, and Arkansas Little Rock and with the same team plus 2 freshman in Hoff and Nolan won 20 games, and last year they beat the #1 overall seed in the tournament on a neutral court and took them to the NCAA tournament, which no one every thought would be possible right after Monson was fired. He's taken players like Damien Johnson that looked like they didn't belong on any D-1 roster and turned him into a very good D-1 player. He's recruited two straight top 25 recruiting classes and could make it a 3rd straight if he lands Cory Joseph. Not going to talk about this year because you can't say anything until the season plays out.

Brewster took over a team that went to a bowl the year before and turned the Gophers into the WORST team in school history. He lost to Bowling green at home, Florida Atlantic on the road, and somehow managed to lose to NDSU at the dome. The only game they won was in OT to Miami Ohio because their kicker missed a chip shot. The 2nd year they played 4 pathetic non conference games they won all 4 barely beating might Northern Illinois. They won 3 games in conference against all bad teams, choked against Wisconsin, and got beaten as bad as possible against Iowa and then got smoked in the bowl game. This year the offense without Decker was the most pathetic thing I have ever seen, and has made Weber into a terrible QB with no confidence. Their best win is at Northwestern and that was before Northwestern started playing good.

So as you can see there is no comparison whatsoever between the two. And I agree it takes longer to rebuild a football team but only great basketball coaches can quickly rebuild programs that were as bad as Minnesota was when Monson was fired.
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Correction, Brewster took over the WORST team in school history and they went 1-11 and no one made Adam Weber into a terrible QB, He IS a terrible QB
 

Don't forget that the basketball team has had a MUCH higher percentage of its players in trouble than the football team. part of that is the total number of players, but all things being level, the basketball team has a much higher percentage of players constantly in trouble than the football team... I don't see many people taking Tubby to task for that compared to what Brewster gets... Go figure...
 

From the Barn said:
Except not really.

Last year Penn State had a winning conference record and didn't go to the tournament. Same for OSU two years ago, in '07 Michigan was 8-8 and in the NIT and Iowa was 9-7 and in the NIT, in 2006 Michigan was 8-8 again and didn't get in. In 2005 was it was OSU not getting in, In 2004 Michigan, Iowa, and Northwestern all were .500, none got in. In 2003 the Gophers were 8-8 and stayed home. In 2002 the Gophers were 9-6 and didn't get in.

So which is easier to get into with a .500 conference record, a mediocre bowl or the NCAA basketball tournament?
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I have already said multiple times in this thread that it is slightly easier to get into a mediocore bowl game than it is to get into the NCAA tournament. However, if you have a bad non-conference, you might miss either. Purdue was .500 this year in the Big Ten (also had a big win over tOSU) and they aren't going to a bowl game.

My point is that the two accomplishments aren't as far off as people make it out to be, but they are not completely equal.

My entire point was that IF (I know, big if) Tubby does not make the tournament this season, then the accomplishments of Brewster and Tubby through the last two seasons have been very similar.
-Tubby had one year that is comparable to about the Alamo Bowl, and a second that is comparable to the Insight Bowl (if they barely miss out), in football terms. The difference between the Alamo Bowl and the Insight Bowl is 1 win.
-They both should have questions about how they have developed their teams (for Tubby, how did they not improve from last year to this year?).
If Tubby's team does not make the tournament, the difference between the two coaches has not been that great.
 



I do agree Tubby has the B-Ball program slightly ahead of the football program as I agree with the statement that making the tournament is a slightly better accomplisment than the insight bowl.

With that said I think that it's hard to make any sort of comparision between these two coaches. First doesn't Tubby make a little more than Brewster does as far as salary so shouldn't he be held to a higher standard?

Secondly isn't it a lot easier to fill up a b-ball roster with kids from the tri-state area instead of having to convince a bunch of athletes from areas like Texas and Florida (yes I know Tubby has recruited athletes from other states but weren't 3 out of the 4 recruits from last years class from MN?)

Finally those that bring up Tubby turning a program that won only a handful of games and Brewster taking over a bowl team. I will only say that many of the seniors that Tubby inherited were recruited by pretty good programs (Boston College, Oklahoma) before committing or transferring to the U. If I remember correctly Brewster's highest rated player comming out of h.s. that he inherited was kicked off the team before Brewster even played the game.

All that said I have seen signs of life in both programs so here's hoping.
 


I'll give Tubby the nod for more basketball wins and an NCAA tournament bid. Of course, I have to give Brewster the edge for more football wins and more bowl bids than Tubby. Also, Brewster has recruited way more players than Tubby has.
 


I think Brewster uses different superlatives. And Tubby never finishes a, often he'll just drop one thought right in the middle, but sometimes it's just pretty hard to, you know, it should be a good game.
 


Skyline four by a landslide. That will pay dividends for years if Brew stays.
 

Tubby has an elite background to back him up, he has actually won at a high level as a head coach. Brewster had not even won at a mediocre level as head coach.
 



Ski U Master said:
Tubby has an elite background to back him up, he has actually won at a high level as a head coach. Brewster had not even won at a mediocre level as head coach.
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Well, I think most people would agree that does give Tubby some more slack. However, like a previous poster said, Tubby also gets paid more than Brewster for having that background, isn't it fair to hold him to a higher standard?

Tubby has some things that Brewster doesn't (better resume and some key wins (even though that should be judged differently in bball).

But when it all boils down to their overall success....there really isn't that much difference between Tubby and Brewster (like I said, this entire argument is based on the hypothetical IF they don't make the NCAA).

They've both had some off the field/court issues and they both appear kind of stagnant when it comes to developing their players between years 2 and 3 (questionable for both of them).

However, one of them is sanctified and one is demonized.
 

Gopher00 said:
So as you can see there is no comparison whatsoever between the two. And I agree it takes longer to rebuild a football team but only great basketball coaches can quickly rebuild programs that were as bad as Minnesota was when Monson was fired.
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Not really. If Monson had coached the 07-08 team, I doubt that the team would have won lost too many more games, if any.

The chief difference between Monson and Tubby is the talent that they will be able to put onto the court.
 

This is a strange conversation. I've followed Gopher athletics a long time and never once, until now, thought about comparing the coach of one sport to that of another, with the exception of surface things, like demeanor and style. Who's doing an acceptable job? I'd look at other coaches and teams in the applicable sport along with the goals set by the administration for that answer.
 

I am very happy that we have Tubby Smith and fairly satisfied with Brewster. It probably isn't fair to the Brew to make this comparison. For one thing we are comparing two totally different sports that make different demands of the coach. In basketball if the coach can recruit one or two above average players (3-4 star) he a successful recruiter. Tubby easily meets that criteris and the Brew greatly exceets that standard. Each or his three years Brewster has signed at least two to seven four star recruits. In basket ball the coach is probably more directly involved in the on hands coaching of every element in the game. It appears that in football the offensive and defensive coordinators are more responsible for the operation of their respective departments. Here is one area that the Brew probabloy got off to a bad start and either didn't hire the right coach or didn't stick with the guy he hired for offense. He is struggling to recover from that mistake and now Brewster, who is himself an inexperienced head coach must rely on an inexperienced offensive coordinator to try to recover. I could be wrong but I have a feel that the Brew is a highly motivated man who usually admits to and learns from his mistakes, and he is going to find a way to overcome this problem. He has worked his fool head off trying to build this team and added another good recruiting class so lets try our best to support him and give him the beginners benefit of the doubt.
 

It's almost like splitting hairs when you talk about Tubby going 9-9 in conference, and Brewster could only muster 3-5. I mean, that's one game. In football, one game changes so much. In basketball, it's just not like that. Tubby could have gone 10-8 and it really wouldn't have changed all that much. But you go 4-4 in football and it does change a lot. Comparing the two sports is just hard to do.

I think the overlying point of this thread is pretty valid in that, Brewster gets a real hard line sometimes, and Tubby seemingly gets a "pass". BUT, in addition to having the history and respect of his past accomplishments, Tubby has another thing going for him right now: He's beaten a top 10 team, and has also beaten Wisconsin (swept them in fact), and Iowa (tho not much of an accomplishment to be Iowa BB). And also, despite this whole thread's convo, perception still is that gaining an NCAA tournament berth is vastly better than an Insight Bowl trip, and he would need a Jan 1st bowl to get people's attention. Brewster has yet to do either of those things, and that is killing him right now. That's why next year is very important for him to get one of those trophy games and beat a highly ranked team. He'll have tons of opportunities to do so with next year's schedule.
 

Gopher00 said:
There is no comparison between Tubby and Brewster.

Brewster took over a team that went to a bowl the year before and turned the Gophers into the WORST team in school history. He lost to Bowling green at home, Florida Atlantic on the road, and somehow managed to lose to NDSU at the dome. The only game they won was in OT to Miami Ohio because their kicker missed a chip shot. The 2nd year they played 4 pathetic non conference games they won all 4 barely beating might Northern Illinois. They won 3 games in conference against all bad teams, choked against Wisconsin, and got beaten as bad as possible against Iowa and then got smoked in the bowl game. This year the offense without Decker was the most pathetic thing I have ever seen, and has made Weber into a terrible QB with no confidence. Their best win is at Northwestern and that was before Northwestern started playing good.
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First off, Brew didnt take the team and turn them into the worst team in history. If you follow college football at all this sort of thing happens all the time in transition years. More so to schools that started with nothing and have to be rebuilt from the ground up. In my mind it could be worse, we could be Michigan right now! They have a huge recruiting advantage over us and Rich Rod had a much better team that he inherited compared to Brewster and he completely destroyed that team. There was a ton of left over talent(not really talent needed for the spread) and they have been brutal.
As for tubby and the top 25 recruiting classes, people say things like "if you take lipscomb and others who are slipping my mind at the moment away, teh recruiting classes are pretty average." Now that we know Royce is a complete moron I think many would argue that we wouldn't have been a top 25 class with just Rodney.
Tubby is a coach above criticism and Brewster is not. That is the only difference right now. Minnesota is a sports community that lives and breathes professional sports and the majority assume everything is a quick fix. Many believe that Tubby did it in nearly a year so Brewster should have been able to by now. Some dont realize football is a different animal compared to hoops and if a team doesn't have the depth they can't win. Brewster is our coach and he will be for at least one more year. Brewster gets all of the Adam Weber blame while none of the Eric Decker credit. If you people want to say he cant develop players and use Weber as the example, well you better tell me who Eric Decker's Head Coach has been for the last 3 seasons! Let me know who helped develop an ex defensive end into a pretty solid linebacker in Cambell. I think the list is longer for the players who have shown great improvement compared to those he recessed during the Brewster regime.
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Mostly the attitude seems to be:

Saint Tubby (for past and anticipated future accomplishments),

Sinner Brew (for promising future accomplishments).
 

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