Tubby's record vs. Brewster's record

[Go Gophers Rah]

I know I'll take some heat for this, but, excluding Brewster's 1st year, Tubby hasn't done that much better than Brew:

2nd year Brewster (2008)
nonconference: 4-0 (1.000)
conference: 3-5 (.375 - 7th)
postseason: 0-1 in the Insight Bowl
Final ranking: somewhere in the vicinity of #55-65

2nd year Tubby (2008-09)
nonconference: 12-0 (1.000)
conference: 9-9 (.500 - 7th)
postseason: 1-1 Big Ten Tournament; 0-1 NCAA Tournament
Final ranking: #46 (RPI)

3rd year Brewster (2009)
nonconference: 3-1 (.750)
conference: 3-5 (.375 - 8th)
postseason: ??? in the Insight Bowl
Current Ranking: #67 college football news; #69 CBS Sports

3rd year Tubby (2009-10) to date
nonconference: 8-3 (lets presume 9-3 w/ SDSU win (.750)
conference: ???
postseason: ???
Current Ranking: #45 AP poll votes; #66 RPI

Conclusion: In their 2nd seasons, both Brewster's and Tubby's teams went undefeated in the nonconference schedule, finished 7th in the conference, lost their postseason game. Tubby's team was probably ranked a little higher (#46 versus #55-65).

Both are still in the midst of their 3rd season (obviously Brewster's is almost done and Tubby hasn't yet coached a 2009 conference game), but their nonconference % was identical. If the Gophers win the Insight Bowl, I would imagine their final ranking would be somewhere in the neighborhood of #58 to #66 (depending on the quality of the win). With an excellent Big Ten campaign (15-3 or better) and getting into the 2nd or 3rd round of the tournament Tubby could very well steer the Gopers to a top-25 finish (even top 15 ). However, a finish with a 8-10 to 12-8 record and a 1st round NCAA loss will result in another year at around #50-#60.

I have never once heard anyone mentioning firing Tubby because of his record - nor would I expect to. The primary reason no one would say that is becuase of:
1) his history of winning, and;
2) the team always looks composed/competetive on the court.

Yet, hoards of people are calling for Brewster's head and scrutinize every aspect of his program to death. Obviously, Brewster has a fraction of the experience of Tubby. Does that mean he should be viewed more critically or less critically? I really don't know.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not a super "rah rah" guy for Brewster. I was against his hiring and I am yet to be convinced that he knows his X's and O's. But he deserves more support from the fans (especially the dedicated fans like those on this board) in year 4 to see whether he can field a January bowl team. We all would have loved to see an appearance in the Rose, Cap One or Outback Bowl by now, but that is something his predescessors of 40+ years were unable to achieve.

I guess what I'm saying is simply, cut the guy some slack!

 

[DMB123]

Brewster took an average program and made them slightly worse. Tubby took a terrible program that was at rock bottom and made them good in one season. Get a clue.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Monson's program wasn't a whole lot worse than Mason's. They both peaked at finishing 4th in the Big 10. Mason won 40% of his Big 10 football games (32/80). Monson won 39.3% of his Big 10 games.

 

[GopherGold]

Brewster took an average program and made them slightly worse. Tubby took a terrible program that was at rock bottom and made them good in one season. Get a clue.

This is true, Tubby brought the Gophers out of their worst season ever and Brewster led one of the worst seasons ever. There is also visual improvement and depth on the basketball team (even with their legal troubles), not so much on the football side. (Decker's out, now what do we do?)

Another thing to note is the improvement of the players themselves. Look at Weber, where is the improvement year over year? Cupito was vastly improved by this time. Is it the coaching or the player? I'm going to say the coaching. I only see improvement under Tubby, all across the board.

I say they should have got Brewster as an asst for recruiting purposes and got a real head coach. It makes all the difference in the world. Here is where to start, Alabama v. Minnesota in the Music City Bowl. From then to now, tells the story.

 

[SelectionSunday]

Brew deserves a lot of credit for upgrading the nonconference schedule. That's one thing Brew has talked about, and he's backed it up. He scored major points with me by scheduling USC, Texas, etc. That's one area I wish Tubby would follow suit, scheduling some decent home opponents for the ticket-buying fans to see.

Nevertheless, comparing the two is like comparing Ugly Betty to Halle Berry. Just one example. Before Tubby arrived the Gophers hadn't beaten a NCAA qualifier away from Williams Arena since the 1997-98 season (MSU in Chicago). They also didn't have a true road win vs. a NCAA qualifier (Iowa) since the 1996-97 season. In just his third season, the Gophers already have 3 of those under Tubby. ... IU (in Indianapolis 2007-08), Louisville (2008-09) and Wisconsin (2008-09). Butler is likely to be added to that list as well this season.

Put simply, Tubby's already done something 3 times (and counting) that the Gopher basketball program hadn't accomplished in more than a 10-year period (March of '98 to February '09). It doesn't hurt that one of those 3 was a signature win over a team that ended up being the #1 overall seed in the NCAA Tournament. Translation: we're beating some good teams, and not all of those wins have occurred at Williams Arena.

That doesn't even address the talent issue, the Gophers' depth, which someone else here has already mentioned. Night & day compared to what we had during the Monson years. The Gophers literally don't have any complete scrubs they can throw into a game at the end of a blowout. A refreshing change from the days when the Gophers' roster had maybe 2-3 true Big 10-caliber players.

It also should be noted that Tubby oozes class and demands respect for what he's accomplished in the past. That's pretty much the reason Joe Average Fan is going to trust him more than Brew.

 

[Go Gophers Rah]

In the 5 years prior to Brewster, the conference placement of the Gophers football team did was as follows:

2006: 6th
2005: 7th
2004: 8th
2003: 4th
2002: 7th

In the 5 years prior to Tubby, the basketball team's conference placement was:

2007: 9th
2006: 10th
2005: 4th
2004: 10th
2003: 6th

So, yes and no. Mason's teams were more consistent, on the other hand, both Mason and Monson each had one 4th place finish and one 6th place finish during their final 5 years. Not too dissimilar.

Also, I have a clue. Don't be rude.

 

[GophersInIowa]

Brewster took an average program and made them slightly worse. Tubby took a terrible program that was at rock bottom and made them good in one season. Get a clue.

Go back and look at the last three years of Mason's career at MN. I would say the program is right at that level right now. They played a much easier schedule then.

I will add that it doesn't take as long to "rebuild" a basketball program compared to a football program where you generally only recruit 2-4 players per year in b-ball compared to 20+ most years of football. Don't get me wrong, I'm very glad Tubby is our coach and think he's doing a great job. I just don't think it's fair to say things like "Tubby turned around a bad basketball program in 2-3 years, why couldn't Brew do that?"

 

[Go Gophers Rah]

I don't want to be misunderstood here.

I am not saying that Brewster is as good of a coach as Tubby. I am not saying that Tubby inherited a worse team than Brewster.

I am merely pointing out the fact that in both coach's respective 2nd season, their teams performed very similarly. Both coaches are in their 3rd season and we won't know what the results of that will look like for a few months.

On paper, there just isn't the justification for the vitriol being directed at Brewster (other than the 1st season which has been greatly improved upon).

If his 4th season is a disaster, then I will join in the call for him to be replaced, until then, as I said in the original post... just cut him a little slack.

 

[PlayHosea]

Brewster took an average program and made them slightly worse. Tubby took a terrible program that was at rock bottom and made them good in one season. Get a clue.

Define "good".

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

I am a huge Tubby fan and I certainly have more faith in Tubby than I do in Brewster, however the truth is that both the basketball and football programs were in somewhat similar states before the new coaches arrived. Monson and Mason had almost identical Big 10 records and they peaked at the exact same level.

You can get into the fact that Brewster hasn't won as many good games as Tubby and that is probably legit. However, the "naked eye" assesment of the two teams is just nonsense (IMO). Do you really think Al Nolen has been "developed" into a quality PG? He is about like Weber. They both showed flashes of being good (begining of their Soph. seasons) but they have both shown what they truly are, less than average in the Big 10 at their positions. We have our entire team back from last season, do you really see a big improvement? Hoff is knocking down some shots, but that's about it.

 

[GophersInIowa]

This is true, Tubby brought the Gophers out of their worst season ever and Brewster led one of the worst seasons ever. There is also visual improvement and depth on the basketball team (even with their legal troubles), not so much on the football side. (Decker's out, now what do we do?)

Another thing to note is the improvement of the players themselves. Look at Weber, where is the improvement year over year? Cupito was vastly improved by this time. Is it the coaching or the player? I'm going to say the coaching. I only see improvement under Tubby, all across the board.
It's easy to say players don't improve under Brew when you only look at one player. What about guys like Triplett, Campbell, Sherels, Tow-Arnett, and that guy you may have heard of named Decker?

I say they should have got Brewster as an asst for recruiting purposes and got a real head coach. It makes all the difference in the world. Here is where to start, Alabama v. Minnesota in the Music City Bowl. From then to now, tells the story.
Alabama vs. Minnesota happened in 2004, then things went down hill from there the last two years of Mason's time at MN.

reply in the quotes above

 

[Ole]

This is true, Tubby brought the Gophers out of their worst season ever and Brewster led one of the worst seasons ever. There is also visual improvement and depth on the basketball team (even with their legal troubles), not so much on the football side. (Decker's out, now what do we do?)

Another thing to note is the improvement of the players themselves. Look at Weber, where is the improvement year over year? Cupito was vastly improved by this time. Is it the coaching or the player? I'm going to say the coaching. I only see improvement under Tubby, all across the board.

I say they should have got Brewster as an asst for recruiting purposes and got a real head coach. It makes all the difference in the world. Here is where to start, Alabama v. Minnesota in the Music City Bowl. From then to now, tells the story.

Indeed, the first seasons for each were polar opposites, the visual improvement is what you decide in your mind. I see a whole heck of a lot of visual improvement(?) and depth improvement by the football team. You might not, to each their own, the improvement I see is the basis of why I believe Brewster deserves and demands more time.

The myth of lack of player development under Brewster is silly. Many players improved over the last 3 years. Again it is probably what you make of it in your own mind.

Brewster would not be here as a recruiting assistant, he came here solely for a shot at a head coaching gig, he could be a recruiting coordinator probably for any program including elite ones.
Your example of a "real head coach" in the music city bowl is kind of selective, Saban is making like what? 5M, 10M a year? For a southern school near recruiting hotbeds of Georgia, Alabama, Lousiana, and Florida? Hate to break it to you, but we had to take a chance on a guy with energy and recruiting pedigree but no track record, if we hadn't, it would have been a chance on someone else with some other issues.

 

[DMB123]

Define "good".

About to make their 2nd straight NCAA appearance in Tubby's 3rd season. Took a team that went 9-21 in Monson's last year to a 20-14 record in Tubby's first year with basically the same team (added Hoffarber and Nolan, but as freshman they were both very average players).

 

[Jike Spingleton]

About to make their 2nd straight NCAA appearance in Tubby's 3rd season.

I hope so, but that's just a tad presumptuous at this point in the season.

 

[PlayHosea]

About to make their 2nd straight NCAA appearance in Tubby's 3rd season. Took a team that went 9-21 in Monson's last year to a 20-14 record in Tubby's first year with basically the same team (added Hoffarber and Nolan, but as freshman they were both very average players).

They're above average, I don't think they're good yet.

 

[SelectionSunday]

"I hope so, but that's just a tad presumptuous at this point in the season."

I concur. Still a lot of work to do this season.

 

[MRJ]

In my mind, that first year for Brewster and Tubby is proving to be a big deal in terms of how the two are compared. For better or worse, Brewster inherited a team that had six wins the year before and he promptly coached them to 1-11. Tubby on the other hand inherited a team that had gone 9-22 in the year before and promptly coached them to 20-14. So since the 1-11 first year, Brewster has been busting his butt just to try to get back to respectability and has gone 7-6 last year and 6-6 this year. Tubby meanwhile went 20-14, then went 22-11 and went to the NCAAs before starting out this year ranked in the top-25. Obviously, the basketball team has had some rough patches since then, so we'll have to see how everything shakes out. However, it's not hard to see why fans have the perception that Tubby has been much better than Brewster. I happen to feel the same way.

But I understand the point and will give Brewster some more time before making a judgment on him.

 

[MRJ]

They're above average, I don't think they're good yet.

I agree. Right now, there's a lot to prove. But they have a chance to be pretty darn good. I'm not sure I feel the same way about Brewster's team. Fortunately, we'll all be afforded the chance to find out.

 

[Schnoodler]

people don't understand how much time it takes to build a program. Basketball has fewer moving parts thus the time line can be faster, and stop gaps can be more effective, but it's a process. Tubby however is a very well seasoned coach, he'll be on top much more quickly.

 

[Winnipegopher]

Brew gets too hard of a ride from fans and media, Tubby too easy a ride.

Why? Because Tubby has a strong history and his presentation is excellent. He always looks like he knows what he is donig and what he is saying and that he is in charge.

Brewster has no history and makes way too many mistakes (Twitter, coaching record, Illinois/Iowa etc, lying on the ground during OT his first year). Brewster has energy and passion but he needs to learn from how to seem more intelligent.

In the end though this argument doesn't matter- success does. If Tubby misses NCAA this year, his seat starts getting hot and people start jumping off the bandwagon. If Brew can win 8, all is forgiven.

 

[Dr.Don]

It does not matter about anything except filling the seats and making $$$$$ to carry the entire Gopher Athletic Program. Football and Men's BB are the ones that carry the load.

For this, Maturi is responsible.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

I think it is probably about 50/50 that the Gophers make the tournament this season. I really think 10-8 in conference is absolutely neccesary for them to sniff the tournament, and I am not certain that will be enough.

So my question is this:
Is going to the Insight Bowl 2/3 years a worse resume than making the tournament 1/3 years?
-Keep in mind that 7 teams out of the Big 10 made the tournament last year, and 7 teams are making a Bowl game in football this season. So, it is somewhat of an even accomplishment to barely make the tournament and get pummeled and to make a crappy bowl game.
-Additionally, everyone is always talking about developing players, and that Tubby has done a better job. Well under this scenario, Tubby did less with the exact same amount of talent as the year before and unlike Brewster, he had his best player for the entire season.

 

[DMB123]

I think it is probably about 50/50 that the Gophers make the tournament this season. I really think 10-8 in conference is absolutely neccesary for them to sniff the tournament, and I am not certain that will be enough.

So my question is this:
Is going to the Insight Bowl 2/3 years a worse resume than making the tournament 1/3 years?
-Keep in mind that 7 teams out of the Big 10 made the tournament last year, and 7 teams are making a Bowl game in football this season. So, it is somewhat of an even accomplishment to barely make the tournament and get pummeled and to make a crappy bowl game.
-Additionally, everyone is always talking about developing players, and that Tubby has done a better job. Well under this scenario, Tubby did less with the exact same amount of talent as the year before and unlike Brewster, he had his best player for the entire season.

Absurd comment. In basketball 64 teams make the NCAA's out of over 300 Div.1 teams. In football 64 teams make a bowl out of 119. So no, it's not even close to an even accomplishment. Making the NCAA basketball Tournament is a legitimate accomplishment and not easy to do. Going 6-6 (3-5) and making a crappy bowl game is not any kind of an accomplichment whatsoever.

People in this thread are rationalizing way too much with pointless numbers. Anyone who's paid attention the past three years can clearly see that Tubby has done a great job since taking over for Monson and Brewster has done an average job since taking over for Mason, and that's being a little kind to Brewster.

 

[washgopher]

bb scheduling

as has already been reported, name basketball programs have no desire to play in the barn but will at a neutral site IF your return game with them is at their home court. Why schedule someone who won't take a chance if they insist you do? I understand that Duke and Kansas have rejected playing at the barn the same way they reject the Breslin Center. That's how they keep those NC records more spotless.

 

[bankonit]

This is true, Tubby brought the Gophers out of their worst season ever and Brewster led one of the worst seasons ever. There is also visual improvement and depth on the basketball team (even with their legal troubles), not so much on the football side. (Decker's out, now what do we do?)

Another thing to note is the improvement of the players themselves. Look at Weber, where is the improvement year over year? Cupito was vastly improved by this time. Is it the coaching or the player? I'm going to say the coaching. I only see improvement under Tubby, all across the board.

I say they should have got Brewster as an asst for recruiting purposes and got a real head coach. It makes all the difference in the world. Here is where to start, Alabama v. Minnesota in the Music City Bowl. From then to now, tells the story.

I take it you are not familiar with the football program or the roster? Brewster was given a terrible team (roster wise) He now has more 4 star players than we have EVER had in the history of the program. We also have more depth than ever with solid 3 star players. Decker was outstanding but we have many young players with more God given talent than Decker. We will be just fine. I suggest you put down your Star Tribune and turn off KFAN, you will see things much more clearly.

 

[MRJ]

Brew gets too hard of a ride from fans and media, Tubby too easy a ride.

Why? Because Tubby has a strong history and his presentation is excellent. He always looks like he knows what he is donig and what he is saying and that he is in charge.

Brewster has no history and makes way too many mistakes (Twitter, coaching record, Illinois/Iowa etc, lying on the ground during OT his first year). Brewster has energy and passion but he needs to learn from how to seem more intelligent.

In the end though this argument doesn't matter- success does. If Tubby misses NCAA this year, his seat starts getting hot and people start jumping off the bandwagon. If Brew can win 8, all is forgiven.

Actually, Tubby's seat won't be hot at all. People may jump off the bandwagon somewhat, but I highly doubt it will be to the level that we've seen with Brewster.

 

[MRJ]

I think it is probably about 50/50 that the Gophers make the tournament this season. I really think 10-8 in conference is absolutely neccesary for them to sniff the tournament, and I am not certain that will be enough.

So my question is this:
Is going to the Insight Bowl 2/3 years a worse resume than making the tournament 1/3 years?
-Keep in mind that 7 teams out of the Big 10 made the tournament last year, and 7 teams are making a Bowl game in football this season. So, it is somewhat of an even accomplishment to barely make the tournament and get pummeled and to make a crappy bowl game.
-Additionally, everyone is always talking about developing players, and that Tubby has done a better job. Well under this scenario, Tubby did less with the exact same amount of talent as the year before and unlike Brewster, he had his best player for the entire season.

First off, nobody knows if we'll qualify for the NCAA Tournament. So to compare making the Insight Bowl 2/3 years to making the NCAA Tournament 1/3 years is making some pretty broad assumptions as this point. If we don't make the NCAA's then maybe the point is worth discussing. However, if we do make the NCAAs, the comparison is moot.

Secondly, Have to agree with DMB. If you had equated it with making and advancing to a first or second round NIT game, then at least I could see the comparison. But comparing making the Insight Bowl to qualifying for the NCAA Tournament is a big stretch.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Absurd comment. In basketball 64 teams make the NCAA's out of over 300 Div.1 teams. In football 64 teams make a bowl out of 119. So no, it's not even close to an even accomplishment. Making the NCAA basketball Tournament is a legitimate accomplishment and not easy to do. Going 6-6 (3-5) and making a crappy bowl game is not any kind of an accomplichment whatsoever.

People in this thread are rationalizing way too much with pointless numbers. Anyone who's paid attention the past three years can clearly see that Tubby has done a great job since taking over for Monson and Brewster has done an average job since taking over for Mason, and that's being a little kind to Brewster.

Yet, the 7th place team in the Big 10 made a crappy bowl and made the NCAA tournament. You can get on your high horse all you want, but (for the most part) you get into the NCAA tournament by merely going .500 in the Big 10. To make a lousy bowl, you need to go .500 (or 3-5), so I agree, it is a slightly more impressive accomplishment to make the NCAA's. The fact that there are 100 more college basketball teams is a really funny way to look at the accomplishment. I, personally, don't care how the Gopher basketball team stacks up against those bottom 100 Div. 1 basketball teams. I care more how the Gophers stack up against the fellow Big 10 teams (other power conferences).

The fact is that .500 is the magic number in both sports ( a little less in football).

So I don't find it absurd at all to say that going to a crappy bowl game 2 out of 3 years is the equivelent of barely getting into the NCAA and getting beaten immedietly is 1 out of 3 years.

 

[i'm batman]

Absurd comment. In basketball 64 teams make the NCAA's out of over 300 Div.1 teams. In football 64 teams make a bowl out of 119. So no, it's not even close to an even accomplishment. Making the NCAA basketball Tournament is a legitimate accomplishment and not easy to do. Going 6-6 (3-5) and making a crappy bowl game is not any kind of an accomplichment whatsoever.

People in this thread are rationalizing way too much with pointless numbers. Anyone who's paid attention the past three years can clearly see that Tubby has done a great job since taking over for Monson and Brewster has done an average job since taking over for Mason, and that's being a little kind to Brewster.

hmmm, do you really think that teams #200-300 actually have a chance to make the tourney. about 150 teams are playing just because oral roberts and their ilk need a conference to play in.

do you really think that any team in the northeast conference has ANY chance of making the tourney if it wasn't for an automatic bid?

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

First off, nobody knows if we'll qualify for the NCAA Tournament. So to compare making the Insight Bowl 2/3 years to making the NCAA Tournament 1/3 years is making some pretty broad assumptions as this point. If we don't make the NCAA's then maybe the point is worth discussing. However, if we do make the NCAAs, the comparison is moot.

Secondly, Have to agree with DMB. If you had equated it with making and advancing to a first or second round NIT game, then at least I could see the comparison. But comparing making the Insight Bowl to qualifying for the NCAA Tournament is a big stretch.

You are completely right, I wasn't trying to insinuate that the Gophers won't make the NCAAs this year (i said probably 50/50). My question was IF they don't make the NCAA's this year (but I forgot the IF)....

I do agree that the NCAA is probably a tad better of an accomplishment than the Insight. However, you can only compare compare Big 10 teams against each other. The way basketball is set up, the "there is 300 NCAA Div.1 basketball teams argument" is illogical. There are a lot more conferences in basketball that will get 1 out of 12 teams (it's almost like counting Div.1aa in the total of football teams).

But the point is that if you go .500 in the Big 10 in either sport, you will get into the tournament. To go to the Insight Bowl, you will need to finish at worst a bit below .500 (1 game difference), so I do agree that it is a a bigger accomplish. However, it isn't a head and shoulders argument. To look at barely getting into the NCAA's as an astounding accomplishment and then to call going to the Insight Bowl not an accomplishment at all is putting a world of importance into 1 football game.