To those calling to fire PJ, who would you hire in his place?

Gophers_4life

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We are not going to do better than PJ and Coyle knows it. Fleck's program, with a win in Madison he will be .500 in conference play through six years. Warmath, Stoll, Salem, Holtz, Gutey, Wacker, Mason, Brew, Kill, Claeys no Gopher coach can say they did that since Football was segrated. (Which is sad in it's own right) Right now he's 24-25 in the Big Ten and 41-26 overall. A win on Saturday and he's .500 vs Wisconsin with two wins in Madison. Fleck is also 5-1 vs Nebraska, 4-2 vs Purdue, 3-2 vs NW, 3-3 vs Illinois, 2-3 vs Wisco. 8-9 vs the East, 14-1 in non con, 3-0 in bowls. The black eye is 0-6 vs Iowa. What's frustrating is we had the better team in 2019, last year and this year, but Fleck seems to leave his balls in Heather's purse when they play Iowa and Ferentz seems to get extra aggressive and his shit qb turns into Johnny Unitas vs Fleck. With that beng said, there's alot I don't like about Fleck in game ultra conservative approach, it will cost a game or two a year, but the good as far as program development goes far outweighs the bad. The other unfortunate truth though is the program is hitting a recruiting road block, the classes aren't bad, but Fleck needed to win the West either this year or last year while he had the veteran squad and the friendly crossover schedule to take the next step in recruiting. We didn't do that and next year with Ohio State and Michigan there no margin for error, you lose to one West opponent and it's over. When 2024 comes and they get rid of divisions, we will never come out on the right side of a tiebreaker with USC, Michigan, etc. I think this is just going to be a hibitual 7-9 in program, maybe we get a 2019 once every ten years and how you feel about that in terms of it being good enough is probably how you feel about Fleck as well.
Coyle may "know" it, but that's merely what Coyle chooses to "know".

No one really can ever know if the next coach will be like going from Mason to Brewster or like going from Claeys to Fleck.
 


Dupreefor3

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Coyle may "know" it, but that's merely what Coyle chooses to "know".

No one really can ever know if the next coach will be like going from Mason to Brewster or like going from Claeys to Fleck.
True but that can be said about everything and anything. An educated guess on the history of this program and quite frankly where we are in the pecking order of the sport and you can logically come to that conclusion. And if we eff up we don't have Auburn money where we can buy the top prospect and still have two previous coaches and staffs on the payroll
 

Gophers_4life

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True but that can be said about everything and anything. An educated guess on the history of this program and quite frankly where we are in the pecking order of the sport and you can logically come to that conclusion. And if we eff up we don't have Auburn money where we can buy the top prospect and still have two previous coaches and staffs on the payroll
We landed Kill and Fleck, in a row, right? Matt Campbell and Lance Leipold from the same conference.

That formula would say: hire the best from the MAC. Try, try again.
 

mngolf

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We landed Kill and Fleck, in a row, right? Matt Campbell and Lance Leipold from the same conference.

That formula would say: hire the best from the MAC. Try, try again.
Why wouldn't that mean similar results? Campbell and Leipold may have topped out too and have not succeeded at P5 level as much as Fleck. That goes for all the people saying Aranda too. What has he accomplished that is better?
 


Dupreefor3

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We landed Kill and Fleck, in a row, right? Matt Campbell and Lance Leipold from the same conference.

That formula would say: hire the best from the MAC. Try, try again.
Fleck went to a Cotton Bowl and built the best team in the history of the MAC or atleast the modern era of the MAC. Kill had a nice team that choked on it in the MAC title game. Wouldn't call it the same and tbh plenty of shitty Big Ten coaches like Beckman at Illinois, Hazell at Purdue came from the MAC as well.
 

Gophers_4life

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Why wouldn't that mean similar results? Campbell and Leipold may have topped out too and have not succeeded at P5 level as much as Fleck. That goes for all the people saying Aranda too. What has he accomplished that is better?
You're saying Leipold has already topped out? Maybe, but I think he deserves a couple more years.

Campbell maybe has.
 

Gophers_4life

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Fleck went to a Cotton Bowl and built the best team in the history of the MAC or atleast the modern era of the MAC. Kill had a nice team that choked on it in the MAC title game. Wouldn't call it the same and tbh plenty of shitty Big Ten coaches like Beckman at Illinois, Hazell at Purdue came from the MAC as well.
You agree that Brewster was a bad coach, though right? We agree on that much at least? That we should not go down that path again?
 

Dupreefor3

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You agree that Brewster was a bad coach, though right? We agree on that much at least? That we should not go down that path again?
I agree, I was more saying plucking someone out of the MAC isn't a sure thing. That also doesn't mean an NFL guy can't be successful, it was clear Brew just wasn't it. I also don't think Kill was a bad coach, he did a lot well cleaning up Brew's mess, there's also a lot of guys with the pedigree that he had who don't do well. There's no guarentees, but it's not very likely that if we fire Fleck, the next guy is going to be better. Fleck had a level of success that this program hasn't had in 60 years before he got here, and I think if you're being honest you would admit none of the guys we hired previously have been better as well. Losing to Iowa sucks, but I'm not going to cut off my nose to spite my face either.
 



Some guy

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We landed Kill and Fleck, in a row, right? Matt Campbell and Lance Leipold from the same conference.

That formula would say: hire the best from the MAC. Try, try again.
are you pointing to Matt Campbell as a good hire? Are you aware his best non Covid season is 8-5?
If he was our coach you’d want him fired this year
 

Gophers_4life

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I agree, I was more saying plucking someone out of the MAC isn't a sure thing. That also doesn't mean an NFL guy can't be successful, it was clear Brew just wasn't it. I also don't think Kill was a bad coach, he did a lot well cleaning up Brew's mess, there's also a lot of guys with the pedigree that he had who don't do well. There's no guarentees, but it's not very likely that if we fire Fleck, the next guy is going to be better. Fleck had a level of success that this program hasn't had in 60 years before he got here, and I think if you're being honest you would admit none of the guys we hired previously have been better as well. Losing to Iowa sucks, but I'm not going to cut off my nose to spite my face either.
Fair. And similar to a lot of others worries. I get it. There is indeed no guarantee.

The thing is going to be like this: Fleck got to benefit from playing in the West, against a largely weak Nebraska program. I think that was good for 1-2 additional wins per year.

No guarantee about what happens when we go divisionless, other than I think it's going to be pretty much off the table to go to the Big Ten championship game.

I do think once every X years we should aim to make the top 12 and go to the first round of the expanded playoff. I think that is on the table.


So, overall, it's a decision like: do you just keep rolling with Fleck, knowing that recruting and wins are what they are and not likely to improve much past where we are now on average, or do you take a risk to try to do better knowing that you could well do worse?
 

Gophers_4life

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are you pointing to Matt Campbell as a good hire? Are you aware his best non Covid season is 8-5?
If he was our coach you’d want him fired this year
I've never said I wanted Fleck fired this year, so that's not a valid comment.

Campbell had a bad year this year. If they do that badly again next year, I'm sure some ISU fans will want him out. He's as much a known quantity at this point as Fleck is.
 

Some guy

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I've never said I wanted Fleck fired this year, so that's not a valid comment.

Campbell had a bad year this year. If they do that badly again next year, I'm sure some ISU fans will want him out. He's as much a known quantity at this point as Fleck is.
Didn’t you say you want him gone if under .500 next year?
Isn’t Campbell 4-7?
So yes, you would want Campbell gone right now if you used your same logic.

I could be mixing up NYC gopher and you. Your monikers visually look identical to me
 



Gophers_4life

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Didn’t you say you want him gone if under .500 next year?
Isn’t Campbell 4-7?
So yes, you would want Campbell gone right now if you used your same logic.
Next year.

Next means the one after the current one. Iowa St was 7-6 overall and 5-4 in conf last year.
 

MaxyJR1

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We landed Kill and Fleck, in a row, right? Matt Campbell and Lance Leipold from the same conference.

That formula would say: hire the best from the MAC. Try, try again.
Matt Campbell is now in last place of the B12 in year 7. He's 46-40. (.535) Fleck is 42-27 (.608). Resumes are really close. Not sure which program is easier to coach at.
 

Some guy

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Next year.

Next means the one after the current one.
So fleck goes:
5-7
11-2
3-4 (Covid)
9-4
7-4 (2 left)

And you want him fired for 5-7 next year

Campbell goes
3-9
8-5
8-5
7-3
9-3 (Covid)
7-6
4-7 (1 left)
And you don’t want him fired?

Why do you have a lower standard for Campbell?
 

Gophers_4life

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So fleck goes:
5-7
11-2
3-4 (Covid)
9-4
7-4 (2 left)

And you want him fired for 5-7 next year

Campbell goes
3-9
8-5
8-5
7-3
9-3 (Covid)
7-6
4-7 (1 left)
And you don’t want him fired?

Why do you have a lower standard for Campbell?
They aren't comparable in the slightest. That's just what you're trying to assert.

Also, Campbell beat Iowa this year.
 

Some guy

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They aren't comparable in the slightest. That's just what you're trying to assert.

Also, Campbell beat Iowa this year.
Campbell is 1-5 vs Iowa
But you’re right they did beat them in route to their 4-7 finish

Why are they not comparable. You’re the one who brought him up!
 

Gophers_4life

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Matt Campbell is now in last place of the B12 in year 7. He's 46-40. (.535) Fleck is 42-27 (.608). Resumes are really close. Not sure which program is easier to coach at.
Very disappointing regression for him the last two years, after a great covid year.

Like I've said: covid year doesn't count .... unless you had a good year that year, then it does count.
 



Gophers_4life

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Yep. I'm not even saying we should for sure hire a MAC coach if we fired Fleck.

I'm saying the last two we hired were from the MAC, and were both upgrades over the guy they replaced.
 

Gophers_4life

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So fleck goes:
5-7
7-6
11-2
3-4 (Covid)
9-4
7-4 (2 left)

And you want him fired for 5-7 next year
Also, you missed 2018 for Fleck. Added above.

Nuance/context of rivalry games (ie, which games you lose) matters too.
 

MaxyJR1

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Yep. I'm not even saying we should for sure hire a MAC coach if we fired Fleck.

I'm saying the last two we hired were from the MAC, and were both upgrades over the guy they replaced.
If/when Fleck is done here, the guy 4 miles down the road might be the hire.
 



Some guy

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If/when Fleck is done here, the guy 4 miles down the road might be the hire.
Harbaugh going San Diego (pioneer league) to Stanford would be the comparison

Know what the bad news is though? He is conservative offensively
 

Panthadad2

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How many more years would PJ need to lose to Iowa before changing the minds of some of the fans here? Never?

I think my limit is two more years. I've already checked out somewhat after this last loss, and I've been a huge supporter since the day PJ was hired.
 

Some guy

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I wasn't, just adding the missing 2018 season and making a statement about additional context from losing rivalry games.
I just can’t stop laughing.
You bringing up a guy and then saying you can’t compare the guy you brought up to the guy we were talking about when you brought him up is an all timer on gooherhole
It’s probably why I skipped 2018 when fleck won his first rivalry game
 





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