Tim McCormick gives his rankings of Big Ten coaches (Bottom Four: Collins, Pitino, Chambers and Underwood)

[builtbadgers]

Beilema was not a good coach. His time at Arkansas exposed that. Gard is in a similar situation. If he goes Tom Izzo and takes it to the next level or at least maintains it for a significant period of time, OK. Not there yet.

Fleck did not inherit the program that Bret did, so it's not a valid comparison.

Knew it was not valid but neither is football to basketball . Thought you were asking if he was good at UW . There would be no way for me to say he was not good based on what he got done there. Thought the post was about Big 10 basketball coaches which inevitably leads us to examine who we think is great, good , average, terrible etc... Do you think Gard will win another Big 10 title ? I do. Do you think he will get to a final 4, i do. Painter has not been to one yet, they are fickle because of one loss and your out but i think Gard will keep winning at a much higher % than we do. I am actuallty wondering if our guy can finish ahead of him just once ! Most conference coaches have not matched Gard over 5 years.

 

[howeda7]

Knew it was not valid but neither is football to basketball . Thought you were asking if he was good at UW . There would be no way for me to say he was not good based on what he got done there. Thought the post was about Big 10 basketball coaches which inevitably leads us to examine who we think is great, good , average, terrible etc... Do you think Gard will win another Big 10 title ? I do. Do you think he will get to a final 4, i do. Painter has not been to one yet, they are fickle because of one loss and your out but i think Gard will keep winning at a much higher % than we do. I am actuallty wondering if our guy can finish ahead of him just once ! Most conference coaches have not matched Gard over 5 years.

I don't think he will get to a Final Four, no. Since conference titles are often 3 or 4 way ties, probably.

 

[Gopher Teeth]

What about Leonard Hamilton? Awfully good resume and he's the best looking 70-something year old out there.

Didn't Boeheim get dinged for something not too many years ago? I feel like I remember Cuse having to vacate like 100 wins but I could be misremembering that. If Williams and K are disqualified (though K has never been caught for this to my knowledge), I don't see how Boeheim, who lost 100 wins due to ineligible players isn't the same victim to your moral code

You are correct about Boeheim, my mistake, so the ACC should be down to one hall of fame coach.

I think Leonard Hamilton is a good coach just not hall of fame. He has an overall win percentage of .565, one ACC championship, 0 Final Fours, 4 sweet sixteens, 10 tournament appearances, but the big killer is 0 NIT championships Just not elite enough for HOF.

 

[builtbadgers]

Well we can disqualify whoever we want on one message board but they are not disqualified. Hell, just think of guys like Bennett, he is not only winning, he is beating cheaters as this board defines them. He has to coach against hall of fame coaches and highly accomplished teams. He would not have to go against them in the Big 10. We have one hall of famer who let rapists stay at his house ! Criminals in his program !

 

[builtbadgers]

I don't think he will get to a Final Four, no. Since conference titles are often 3 or 4 way ties, probably.

Which Big 10 coaches do you think will make the final 4 ? There have only been four 3 way ties in 40 years, zero 4 way. One every 10 years does not seem that often to me. Plus you get a big 10 title trophy for your team.

 

[howeda7]

Which Big 10 coaches do you think will make the final 4 ? There have only been four 3 way ties in 40 years, zero 4 way. One every 10 years does not seem that often to me. Plus you get a big 10 title trophy for your team.

Beyond Izzo, I'd rank Holtmann, Turgeon and Painter as more likely than Gard. Probably Underwood and Miller too.

Put it this way, I don't think we'll be seeing any 16-4 or 17-3's from Wiscy anytime soon.

 

[builtbadgers]

Beyond Izzo, I'd rank Holtmann, Turgeon and Painter as more likely than Gard. Probably Underwood and Miller too.

Put it this way, I don't think we'll be seeing any 16-4 or 17-3's from Wiscy anytime soon.

Thank you for your honest answer. Was there a reason you did not count Miller for his body of work including a elite 8 at age 34 and had him in a low tier but think he is a better final 4 pick . Just curious. I have Miller winning the Big 10 and getting to a final 4.

 

[howeda7]

Thank you for your honest answer. Was there a reason you did not count Miller for his body of work including a elite 8 at age 34 and had him in a low tier but think he is a better final 4 pick . Just curious. I have Miller winning the Big 10 and getting to a final 4.

Not really. He just seems to be struggling a bit at IU and Dayton was an 11 seed when they made that run. A bit of a fluke. I think he's a better bet for the Final Four because he's at IU though. If he and Gard traded jobs, I'd swap them. Same with Illinois and Maryland.

 

[Biggsohnasty]

Archie Miller is an excellent coach. Indiana is one of those schools where the expectations are just weird and the coach is just always on the hot seat. I wouldn't be surprised if this season doesn't go great for them despite highish expectations and he's potentially looking for a new home.

Turgeon feels like a worse coach than Gard. They consistently get higher-rated recruits, yet have very little tournament success. Gard has had one bad year but has Wisconsin positioned to be better than Maryland going forward at least for the next couple years.

I'd rank Painter, Holtman and maybe Underwood ahead of him, though Underwood isn't as clear-cut in my eye. But I like that he looks like Brendan Gleeson.

 

[builtbadgers]

Not really. He just seems to be struggling a bit at IU and Dayton was an 11 seed when they made that run. A bit of a fluke. I think he's a better bet for the Final Four because he's at IU though. If he and Gard traded jobs, I'd swap them. Same with Illinois and Maryland.

Elite 8 is hardly a fluke, it takes winning three games in a row. Just the nature of the tournament. Understand your explanation. Huge believer that great coaches win no matter where they coach. Gard would win here at a better level than we have had in a very long time.

 

[builtbadgers]

Archie Miller is an excellent coach. Indiana is one of those schools where the expectations are just weird and the coach is just always on the hot seat. I wouldn't be surprised if this season doesn't go great for them despite highish expectations and he's potentially looking for a new home.

Turgeon feels like a worse coach than Gard. They consistently get higher-rated recruits, yet have very little tournament success. Gard has had one bad year but has Wisconsin positioned to be better than Maryland going forward at least for the next couple years.

I'd rank Painter, Holtman and maybe Underwood ahead of him, though Underwood isn't as clear-cut in my eye. But I like that he looks like Brendan Gleeson.

Gard is coming off a Big 10 title and they are positioned to be better than that.

 

[Gopherfan84]

Beyond Izzo, I'd rank Holtmann, Turgeon and Painter as more likely than Gard. Probably Underwood and Miller too.

Put it this way, I don't think we'll be seeing any 16-4 or 17-3's from Wiscy anytime soon.

Turgeon is awful, but Maryland gets talent so who knows. I like Holtmann and Painter a lot, but Gard isn't far behind imo. I think Wiskey wins 15-16 this year too.

 

[Bigeddysprings]

Great thread. Seriously. Although I disagree with howeda7's take on Greg Gard..I get the Wisconsin hate here but the disrespect for Gard is a head scratcher. He has the numbers and he has a great future. Most don't realize he is younger than Tony Bennett.
I also think that there are lots of clean programs. You don't need to cheat to win it all as Bo Ryan nearly showed and Tony Bennett did show. I think Rick runs a clean program, He is still very young.

 

[MennoSota]

I'd have Hoiberg, Underwood and Painter higher, and Turgeon lower but that could be because Turgeon annoys me. Everyone is going to have their different rankings, but I didn't find that list to be awful.

If ranking them in tiers
Tier 1:
Izzo
Painter
Holtmann
Gard

Tier 2:
Hoiberg
Howard
Underwood
Turgeon

Tier 3:
Peikell
McCaffery
Miller (maybe tier 4)

Tier 4 (Hotseat):
Pitino
Collins
Chambers

Zero National Championships in 20 years. Every B1G coach sucks! ?

 

[builtbadgers]

Zero National Championships in 20 years. Every B1G coach sucks! ?

In the 20 years where there was a champion, we have one !

 

[obobo55]

Which Big 10 coaches do you think will make the final 4 ? There have only been four 3 way ties in 40 years, zero 4 way. One every 10 years does not seem that often to me. Plus you get a big 10 title trophy for your team.

4 way tie in 2002, Bo's first season.

Winning a natl title is a pretty tall order. I love Gard & Painter and think both are capable of doing so, but it takes some incredible luck and great fortune to do it. UVA won but could have easily been bounced several times during their run.

Izzo has had numerous teams with the talent to win it all but only once in over 25 years managed to pull it off.

The B1G as a league gets the shaft IMO in seeding. Because the league is so tough top to bottom, the champ is often saddled with a bunch of Ls, far more than in other leagues. The ACC champ nearly always gets a #1 and a far easier path. Same for Kansas and whichever small conference team decides to go 31-2 every year. How many #1 seeds has the league even had? Illinois in 2005, OSU with Oden. UW in 2015. Any others since the Flintstones?

edit: missed 3 other #1s-- 2011 OSU, 2012 MSU, 2013 Indiana. 6 #1 seeds in 19 years since 2001. None for those good Hummel Purdue teams, none for Michigan, all of Bo's really dominant clubs prior to 2015...

 

[howeda7]

Turgeon is awful, but Maryland gets talent so who knows. I like Holtmann and Painter a lot, but Gard isn't far behind imo. I think Wiskey wins 15-16 this year too.

Awful is over the top. Is Gard a better coach? Probably. But I'd take Turgeon and his talent over a 5 year window over Gard and his. Same with Holtman, Painter and Underwood.

 

[builtbadgers]

4 way tie in 2002, Bo's first season.

Winning a natl title is a pretty tall order. I love Gard & Painter and think both are capable of doing so, but it takes some incredible luck and great fortune to do it. UVA won but could have easily been bounced several times during their run.

Izzo has had numerous teams with the talent to win it all but only once in over 25 years managed to pull it off.

The B1G as a league gets the shaft IMO in seeding. Because the league is so tough top to bottom, the champ is often saddled with a bunch of Ls, far more than in other leagues. The ACC champ nearly always gets a #1 and a far easier path. Same for Kansas and whichever small conference team decides to go 31-2 every year. How many #1 seeds has the league even had? Illinois in 2005, OSU with Oden. UW in 2015. Any others since the Flintstones?

edit: missed 3 other #1s-- 2011 OSU, 2012 MSU, 2013 Indiana. 6 #1 seeds in 19 years since 2001. None for those good Hummel Purdue teams, none for Michigan, all of Bo's really dominant clubs prior to 2015...

The ACC has often ranked as the better conference. They have the decided advantage in the ACC Big 10 challenge. They have more elite programs. Your way out of bounds on Kansas, if they go 31-2 it is a titanic accomplishment if you look at the non con schedules they play ! Plus they have faced several strong Big 12 CONTENDERS. The big 10 gets seeded fairly. Do you think UVA should not have been a 1 seed ! The ran a perfect record against every power 6 team they played outside the conference ! What years should Duke or UNC OR UVA NOT BEEN A ONE. By any metric. If your great you will make it as a two seed . Would never have seeded a Hummel team a one. No one followed Ryans teams closer than i did and i thought they were seeded right where they should be. What specific years do you think UW should have been a one seed ?

So with the 4 way in 2002 that still makes 4 times in 40 years that it was shared by 4 or more teams, 3 times by 3, one time by 4. That makes it 1 in 10 years over 40 years. Hell, not even one in 5 is not very often. Plus a tie does not diminish the title, no one did better. Officially the 2002 was a 3 way tie as OSU had theirs vacated.

 

[Bigeddysprings]

Many of Bo's teams were under-seeded. Most of those were when they had the resume of a 3 and ended up a 5 or 6. I can't think of any that they were short shrifted for a #1 seed. I also cannot think of a year that they were over-seeded.

 

[builtbadgers]

Many of Bo's teams were under-seeded. Most of those were when they had the resume of a 3 and ended up a 5 or 6. I can't think of any that they were short shrifted for a #1 seed. I also cannot think of a year that they were over-seeded.

The only year i thought they were under was the year they got to play Pitt in Milwaukee. Those teams 3-4-5-6 had blemishes. One seeds have earned them and the first one left out gets the 1st two seed. None of it really means anything to me. When you win a ton, everyone notices. Recruits know how much you win, they do the research, they see the trophies , the banners. You show them. They will not get hung up if you were a 1 or a 2 or a 3 or a 6. They will notice who wins championships, they know who plays in the biggest games.

 

[Bigeddysprings]

The year against Pitt is the one that really stands out. Most of the other examples fall into the natural bias we have for our team. Although the "slights" were there if only by one seed line or location in some instances,of course I follow the Badgers very close and dissect the numbers possibly a tad closer than others without a dog in the fight. Outside of the Pitt example it was never anything to spoil the excitement of being in the tourney, for me. It is still a big deal to be in the dance as I remember the dark days prior to Erickson and Cofield.

 

[builtbadgers]

The year against Pitt is the one that really stands out. Most of the other examples fall into the natural bias we have for our team. Although the "slights" were there if only by one seed line or location in some instances,of course I follow the Badgers very close and dissect the numbers possibly a tad closer than others without a dog in the fight. Outside of the Pitt example it was never anything to spoil the excitement of being in the tourney, for me. It is still a big deal to be in the dance as I remember the dark days prior to Erickson and Cofield.

Same. The only real injustices i have seen is teams that have been left out in place of teams with only one quality win but even then , they have to blame themselves for obvious bad losses.

 

[gophereric30]

Greg Gard has a very impressive record. Archie Miller has done a great deal at the D1 level and now has his guys.

Gard has done a good job, but saying archie finally has his guys? Who's guy was Langford's? Lottery pick and still doesnt do anything with him. Yes he has great class coming in, but we'll see what happens. Indiana has had talent last 3 years and hasnt done much. Let's see how his indiana career goes before we say he's a great coach because he did well at dayton. You know who else is doing well at dayton? The current coach!

 

[builtbadgers]

Gard has done a good job, but saying archie finally has his guys? Who's guy was Langford's? Lottery pick and still doesnt do anything with him. Yes he has great class coming in, but we'll see what happens. Indiana has had talent last 3 years and hasnt done much. Let's see how his indiana career goes before we say he's a great coach because he did well at dayton. You know who else is doing well at dayton? The current coach!

His guys means a whole roster of his guys. His culture.

 

[Gopher Teeth]

The ACC has often ranked as the better conference. They have the decided advantage in the ACC Big 10 challenge. They have more elite programs. Your way out of bounds on Kansas, if they go 31-2 it is a titanic accomplishment if you look at the non con schedules they play ! Plus they have faced several strong Big 12 CONTENDERS. The big 10 gets seeded fairly. Do you think UVA should not have been a 1 seed ! The ran a perfect record against every power 6 team they played outside the conference ! What years should Duke or UNC OR UVA NOT BEEN A ONE. By any metric. If your great you will make it as a two seed . Would never have seeded a Hummel team a one. No one followed Ryans teams closer than i did and i thought they were seeded right where they should be. What specific years do you think UW should have been a one seed ?

So with the 4 way in 2002 that still makes 4 times in 40 years that it was shared by 4 or more teams, 3 times by 3, one time by 4. That makes it 1 in 10 years over 40 years. Hell, not even one in 5 is not very often. Plus a tie does not diminish the title, no one did better. Officially the 2002 was a 3 way tie as OSU had theirs vacated.

It's a lot easier to win challenges when your programs are cheating. I am not impressed with the accomplishments of cheating programs and by extension the ACC. If you cheated on the ACT and scored a 36, I am not impressed, I guess others may be, but not I.

If you just disqualify the UNC games during their scandal that would flip the series to 10-9-2 ACC. That isn't even counting Duke's games that should be forfeited, which would put the count in favor of the Big Ten

 

[builtbadgers]

It's a lot easier to win challenges when your programs are cheating. I am not impressed with the accomplishments of cheating programs and by extension the ACC. If you cheated on the ACT and scored a 36, I am not impressed, I guess others may be, but not I.

Same here. Despise cheating, actually call people out on it on the golf course. Does not diminish the coaches that play it clean and beat those schools. Same for Gard and even more so for Ryan who beat MSU who has had criminals on their team they covered for. That is at least as severe as what K has done. That is why i believe in stripping wins away from those caught. It is why i still donate to the U for doing the right thing about that cheating coach and players we had and why i find it so thrilling when someone who plays it straight wins it all.

 

[BarnBurner]

Same here. Despise cheating, actually call people out on it on the golf course. Does not diminish the coaches that play it clean and beat those schools. Same for Gard and even more so for Ryan who beat MSU who has had criminals on their team they covered for. That is at least as severe as what K has done. That is why i believe in stripping wins away from those caught. It is why i still donate to the U for doing the right thing about that cheating coach and players we had and why i find it so thrilling when someone who plays it straight wins it all.

St Tom Izzo!!!

#SpartyON
#excusesrforlosers

 

[obobo55]

The ACC has often ranked as the better conference. They have the decided advantage in the ACC Big 10 challenge. They have more elite programs. Your way out of bounds on Kansas, if they go 31-2 it is a titanic accomplishment if you look at the non con schedules they play ! Plus they have faced several strong Big 12 CONTENDERS. The big 10 gets seeded fairly. Do you think UVA should not have been a 1 seed ! The ran a perfect record against every power 6 team they played outside the conference ! What years should Duke or UNC OR UVA NOT BEEN A ONE. By any metric. If your great you will make it as a two seed . Would never have seeded a Hummel team a one. No one followed Ryans teams closer than i did and i thought they were seeded right where they should be. What specific years do you think UW should have been a one seed ?

So with the 4 way in 2002 that still makes 4 times in 40 years that it was shared by 4 or more teams, 3 times by 3, one time by 4. That makes it 1 in 10 years over 40 years. Hell, not even one in 5 is not very often. Plus a tie does not diminish the title, no one did better. Officially the 2002 was a 3 way tie as OSU had theirs vacated.

I wasn't specifically calling for any UW team to have received a #1, but they did go 16-2 in the league in 2008 and got a 3 seed (lost to Curry). My post was simply that the best in the B1G often takes more Ls because playing such tough venues night in/night out. When it comes to picking the 4 best each year and the best B1G team has a 14-4 record, they get bumped by a team that dominates the BE or A10 or WCC, along with the ACC champ and Kentucky/Kansas. Duke yearly plays no true road games in NC play except when forced in the challenge.

It is a small difference, but getting a free pass generally for the 1st week of the tourney is HUGE. Playing in NC nearly every season for round 1 & 2. This while the #5 or #6 best often is shipped out of region for balance considerations.

My belief is that UW should have had B2B titles in 14 & 15. Would have changed the perception right there. MSU having been to the FF as many times should have another title, and Michigan should have eeked one out. Throw in a '05 title for Illinois over a cheating UNC fraud team and the B1G starts to look downright dominant compared to the 1 title for Kansas and zero for the P12 going back to '97. It hasn't happened that way, so it is what it is. I think the league is really close to having that type of success.

 

[builtbadgers]

Just do not agree. No big deal. I do not do ifs. That Duke team UW lost to did not even win the ACC ! The ACC has been the better conference. Those 16-2 and 17-1 UVA teams were not going 14-4 in the Big 10. The bottom half of the Big 10 is garbage against that. Going to East Lansing is not more difficult than going to Duke. Going to Boston College is just as tough as going to Northwestern. T o me, the ACC looks like it is getting even better. I love the recruits going into the ACC. I do think what is happening at Michigan keeps them strong, love what IU is doing. I love what OSU is doing. I simply do not care if 7-14 are equal if they are all bad. Guess the next 10 years will tell us who has the better coaches, who wins the titles, who sends more guys to the NBA. That is part of the fun, to see who does what because we can not know.

 

[gophereric30]

It's a lot easier to win challenges when your programs are cheating. I am not impressed with the accomplishments of cheating programs and by extension the ACC. If you cheated on the ACT and scored a 36, I am not impressed, I guess others may be, but not I.

If you just disqualify the UNC games during their scandal that would flip the series to 10-9-2 ACC. That isn't even counting Duke's games that should be forfeited, which would put the count in favor of the Big Ten

I mean the big and the ACC have been pretty even the past few years. Not really sure one way or another if the acc goes 10-9-2 or the big goes 10-9-2 if that makes anyone the better conference. It's just all about matchups that week. It's for the fans pleasure and all about tv. I could probably schedule the games and come up with a way for one conference to win more games.