Thoughts on Kenny Minchey

[GreasyGopher]

Pilots and CEOs of major corporations.

Yeah, but those requirements are significantly higher and occur due to perceived decline in ability, competency, and safety etc.

None of those things are true for an able bodied 22-24 year old. It’s an especially tough argument when they get pushed out of the NCAA and can go play in a pro league, if they are good enough.

The argument isn’t that they aren’t capable of playing football, it’s that they just can’t play in the NCAA any longer.

 

[GreasyGopher]

Well, the NFL does the opposite and won’t allow players to be less than theee years out of HS. The USMC has an enlistment age of 17-28. There are examples out there.

Good points here but I wonder if the NFL rule could potentially be in jeopardy given the current atmosphere around sports.

 

[upnorthkid]

Good points here but I wonder if the NFL rule could potentially be in jeopardy given the current atmosphere around sports.

Maurice Clarett tried this and won at lower court but was defeated in higher court due to argument that it had been collectively bargained (and you'd have to have the money to try go up against the NFLs lawyers as an individual player; don't really know who would otherwise file that lawsuit and be able to fund it successfully when there's a CBA in place and the option to form your own leagues).

Have been some challenges in soccer and basketball recently. Obviously iron is as hot as its going to get at this point if one wanted to try

 

[GopherTheJugular]

You can't have a CBA (Collective Bargaining Agreement) without a collective entity to bargain with, such as a union.

Presumably that union would advocate for some kind of rights or benefits in exchange for limits or concessions in any contract negotiation.

Those might be things like continuing education, long term medical coverage, grievance procedures, and so forth that are not legally mandated

Thanks, that's more clear now.

Not being sarcastic, this is a legit question: who would be on the other side? Would the schools form a union also, and the two unions negotiate?

 

[GopherTheJugular]

Maybe I'm legally wrong, but that's saying the only people with "rights" are those currently enrolled at a D1 university.

Well what "right" are you talking about? I have the right to work, but I can't sue if no one hires me. Similarly, high school grads have the right to pursue a college football opportunity, but no one is obligated to give them a spot.

 

[GopherTheJugular]

Good points here but I wonder if the NFL rule could potentially be in jeopardy given the current atmosphere around sports.

Was it collectively bargained for?

 

[GopherTheJugular]

By the way, does anyone actually have any "THOUGHTS ON KENNY MINCHEY", the original target of this thread?

 

[fmlizard]

Thanks, that's more clear now.

Not being sarcastic, this is a legit question: who would be on the other side? Would the schools form a union also, and the two unions negotiate?

I’m not an expert on any of this but I believe the counterparty could either be the school itself (since it’s the employer) or the NCAA.

In pro sports the teams are franchises of a single business entity such as the NFL or NBA. That is obviously not the case with the NCAA or the universities. Universities are only subordinate to the NCAA in matters related to college athletics. Something would probably have to change with that structure.

If there is to be any uniform structure across college athletics it would have to be an entity like the NCAA on the other side of the CBA because a whole bunch of school+team deals do nothing for that nationwide.

 

[GreasyGopher]

Maurice Clarett tried this and won at lower court but was defeated in higher court due to argument that it had been collectively bargained (and you'd have to have the money to try go up against the NFLs lawyers as an individual player; don't really know who would otherwise file that lawsuit and be able to fund it successfully when there's a CBA in place and the option to form your own leagues).

Have been some challenges in soccer and basketball recently. Obviously iron is as hot as its going to get at this point if one wanted to try

Times sure have changed since Maurice Clarett.

Although given your points, the NCAA rules are probably more in danger than the NFL. There’s no CBA in college and it only takes one kid that isn’t good enough to play in the NFL but good enough to still play in the NCAA to challenge the eligibility limitations.

 

[Cmich Gopher]

By the way, does anyone actually have any "THOUGHTS ON KENNY MINCHEY", the original target of this thread?

Seems like the original post was about how to handle filling the QB position in the current era of player mobility and pay for play.

The gophers seem to have moved to a more QB centric offense in the past few years (or maybe they've just lost the ability to run the ball?) In either case it's poor timing. It would be better to run an offense that can function with mediocre QB play in case of injury or someone throwing a bag at the QB you've been carefully developing for years.

 

[Some guy]

Just in time for eligibility rules to be thrown out the window

I’ve yet to see a court case that has challenged the merits of 4 to play 5 at the ncaa level

There already have been kids that have reclassified and gone to work early.
There isn’t a rule saying you have to be 18 to play college sports (as I was reminded everyone that Wisconsin’s RB played)

 

[GophersInIowa]

By the way, does anyone actually have any "THOUGHTS ON KENNY MINCHEY", the original target of this thread?

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Well, the NFL does the opposite and won’t allow players to be less than theee years out of HS. The USMC has an enlistment age of 17-28. There are examples out there.

The NFL is collectively bargained for by the union. The USMC's age is deemed "reasonable".

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

I’ve yet to see a court case that has challenged the merits of 4 to play 5 at the ncaa level

There already have been kids that have reclassified and gone to work early.
There isn’t a rule saying you have to be 18 to play college sports (as I was reminded everyone that Wisconsin’s RB played)

Yep and Ryan Williams at Bama was only 17 all of last year.

You're spot on, there are a lot of NCAA eligibility rules that have not yet been tested, so it'll be interesting to see how it plays out. It feels like the momentum is all moving towards nullifying all of these rules (it's hard to understand how some of them could be reasonable but not others), but we'll see.

 

[PTSD@Dome’03MI]

Notre Dame QB Kenny Minchey committed to Nebraska a few days ago. A got "get" for the Huskers. But before anything became official, Kentucky must have upped its bid, because Minchey flipped to them.

IMHO, one of the best things that a team in Minnesota's position can do is have its its QB situation settled from year-to-year, so that it isn't dependent on finding a starting QB every year in the transfer portal. The bidding wars for QBs, and the price volatility of those "assets," has got to be an astounding headache, once you've decided you must be a buyer. With stability at the QB position, you can allocate your $$ among other assets with far more certainty.

Indiana appears to be a QB buyer every year now (though Mendoza's brother is on the roster, developing)--but Indiana can handle it. Wisconsin has now fallen into the QB-buyer-every-year situation (trap?)--but not sure it is built to handle it. I like PJ's path: find and develop your QB in house, even if it means a rough first year of play. This route gives you more freedom in the portal and allows you to build a consistent offensive identity (which in turn allows you to use the portal more efficiently).

I agree with everything you are saying.

But don’t forget Drake could do a Koi next year.

 

[PTSD@Dome’03MI]

I agree with everything you are saying.

But don’t forget Drake could do a Koi next year.

Another thought.

How long will a quarterback stay? A college football transfer portal conundrum

Jaron-Keawe Sagapolutele stayed at Cal, but more often than not, college quarterbacks are on the move

www.espn.com

 

[50PoundHead]

QB is really going to change in college football when all the people with extra years are gone


I think next year will be the last year to see Covid 6 year guys out there

QBs at some point will be 19-22 again

Not if Pavia has his way. I've become a dour doomsdayer, but I think eligibility rules are the next thing to see major changes.

 

[disco]

given there's not really any money to be made there, I guess you could try to file a lawsuit to do so if you otherwise meet the requirements and want to sue MNSHL for being ageist.

Not right now. Maybe not in MN.
But the majority of states have no prohibition on high school NIL. And there have been a number of stories of shenanigans going on in the high school scene in S. California.

 

[GopherTheJugular]

It would be better to run an offense that can function with mediocre QB play in case of injury or someone throwing a bag at the QB you've been carefully developing for years.

I hear ya, and WI kinda did that for decades, but it almost seems like giving up nowadays. I mean, when WI was doing it, they could get to a valued Rose Bowl with likely just one key upset of Ohio State or Michigan. And they get 10 win seasons from that and people were good with it.

Nowadays, I think your odds are small that you'll make the CFP with mediocre QB play, so you're settling for bowls like ours every year.

 

[GopherTheJugular]

Not right now. Maybe not in MN.
But the majority of states have no prohibition on high school NIL. And there have been a number of stories of shenanigans going on in the high school scene in S. California.

Yeah, I have a friend from southern CA. If there's a way to bend a rule to win in football, they'll absolutely do it.

 

[Some guy]

I

Not if Pavia has his way. I've become a dour doomsdayer, but I think eligibility rules are the next thing to see major changes.

to me, it’s already odd that the college football rules didn’t really match college hockey rules

 

[TNGophfan]

Well what "right" are you talking about? I have the right to work, but I can't sue if no one hires me. Similarly, high school grads have the right to pursue a college football opportunity, but no one is obligated to give them a spot.

True, and I'm just thinking out loud and throwing shite on the wall, how about a kid from a very poor background who can't afford college but would have received a scholarship had 10 kids at each school not decided to play their 8th year (hyperbole). Would he have a case for being deprived an education and future earnings?

 

[Cobra]

It smells like a massive troll job.

 

[upnorthkid]

Not right now. Maybe not in MN.
But the majority of states have no prohibition on high school NIL. And there have been a number of stories of shenanigans going on in the high school scene in S. California.

interesting. haven't really stayed in touch with any HS football recruiting as its such a cluster to try keep tabs on so many schools/programs.

sounds similar to the parents getting random "jobs" offered for kids that played hockey in the past to allow for some redistricting/relocating of their kids

 

[Cmich Gopher]

I hear ya, and WI kinda did that for decades, but it almost seems like giving up nowadays. I mean, when WI was doing it, they could get to a valued Rose Bowl with likely just one key upset of Ohio State or Michigan. And they get 10 win seasons from that and people were good with it.

Nowadays, I think your odds are small that you'll make the CFP with mediocre QB play, so you're settling for bowls like ours every year.

I agree that it may limit the possibility of winning the title. How realistic a goal is that right now for us? Our dream year is currently beating all our rivals and sneaking into the CFP. I think that's possible (and maybe more likely for us now) with a less QB-centric offense.

In the past there was little to no opportunity cost to having a great QB. Now if you have one, you have to pay them at the expense of other positions. If they get injured you are screwed for that year because no good QB wants to be a backup. The risk makes sense for a blue blood program because every year there is a realistic shot at the title. For a developmental program like Minnesota I would expect more consistent long term success by de-emphasizing the position as much as reasonably possible and investing those funds elsewhere.

If we are going to have a QB centric offense and not play the bidding war game, we may be writing off 2 of every 4 years as "down" years offensively while they develop. If we do play the bidding war game we may not have the money to surround them with talent. In either case they might get injured or decide to leave for any number of reasons. It's a pickle for sure.

 

[PMWinSTP]

Thanks, that's more clear now.

Not being sarcastic, this is a legit question: who would be on the other side? Would the schools form a union also, and the two unions negotiate?

Schools would need to form some sort of collective bargaining team that would represent their interests as a group, like the professional leagues have in the US.

 

[Gophergrandpa]

I agree with everything you are saying.

But don’t forget Drake could do a Koi next year.

Yup. That’s why I wish Kollock had stayed and developed in our system.

 

[disco]

sounds similar to the parents getting random "jobs" offered for kids that played hockey in the past to allow for some redistricting/relocating of their kids

Yeah, it's similar to how Marvin and Polaris allegedly gave the parents of good hockey players jobs in Warroad and Roseau, which would kind of be necessary - it's not like changing from Shakopee to Prior Lake - you have to move to the middle of nowhere.

But the stories about the stuff in California is way sleazier.

 

[Dave H]

I

to me, it’s already odd that the college football rules didn’t really match college hockey rules

Well hockey in the US has a lot less players (especially back when the rules were made) so they needed to bring in players from Canada to fill out rosters. (or in Denver's case have a roster) Since most states didn't have HS hockey programs players played in Juniors which had different requirements and since the players were not paid (unless they went Majors) the clock hadn't really started yet.

FWIW according to my grandpa back in the day football used to find ways to use overagers as well. I think he used to tell stories of Pittsburgh having semi pro and pro guys on their roster. And lest we forget Chris Weinke won a Heisman when he was 28.

 

[GopherTheJugular]

Schools would need to form some sort of collective bargaining team that would represent their interests as a group, like the professional leagues have in the US.

Yeah, but what are their interests? Third party NIL doesn't affect them, and right now no one is forcing them to cover medical or tuition expenses after the athletes leave the school.

Seems like they would have a lot to lose and nothing to gain.

At least with other "pro" leagues you have the owners and players going after the same pot of money, so they are naturally on opposites sides of the negotiating table.

I just don't see that scenario with schools.