thomas hammock may go to wisc

[dpodoll68]

I'm pretty sure that is only in the NFL and not in college. Look at Boise OC going to Texas for the same position just like the Miss St DC did.

Neither of them were under contract, which Hammock currently is.

 

[Redbird]

I can see why Wiscy is interested, he's a solid recruiter, and they are hurting a competitor in the process. What I don't understand is why we would not hold him to his contract which he must have signed recently. To me this is simple, if he doesn't have a contract or has a clause in his contract which allows him to leave for a promotion wave goodbye. Otherwise he is not allowed to leave for a big ten competitor period. There may be other options like giving him the same fake title he would have over there. Bottom line is that he will not be OC, which is the only real promotion from RB coach, and if he needs a raise to keep him around do it, perhaps he was underpaid to begin with. Another example of what an a** Bielema is.

 

[DrunkGopher]

Neither of them were under contract, which Hammock currently is.

Kill was under contract so were all of his assistant coaches, the only way he wouldn't be able to leave for the same position would be if it was specifically written in his contract, which it usually isn't. This isn't the NFL where teams have rules about contacting coaches, unless its between 2 conference teams and there is a conference rule, its pretty much free game

 

[atsgopher]

the only way he wouldn't be able to leave for the same position would be if it was specifically written in his contract, which it usually isn't.

Really? What's your basis? I doubt the lawyer who framed the contract for the U and similarily the one who represented Hammock would ignore provisions for early termination.

Sounds suspect to me.

 

[DrunkGopher]

Really? What's your basis? I doubt the lawyer who framed the contract for the U and similarily the one who represented Hammock would ignore provisions for early termination.

Sounds suspect to me.

Your right I don't know for 100% sure that he can leave but if you look across the nation at how often college football coaches switch schools its pretty obvious it is not the NFL rules, that he stated. And both my examples from earlier were under contract when they were hired away, just like how Kill was under contract when we hired him or Lane Kiffen was under contract when he was hired away. This isn't the NFL

 

[atsgopher]

Your right I don't know for 100% sure that he can leave but if you look across the nation at how often college football coaches switch schools its pretty obvious it is not the NFL rules, that he stated. And both my examples from earlier were under contract when they were hired away, just like how Kill was under contract when we hired him or Lane Kiffen was under contract when he was hired away. This isn't the NFL

Got it, your logic makes sense framed in those terms. I assume that Head coaches contracts are much more detailed and the provisions for departure are much more specific (sometimes even job specific as I know was in Kiffin's). Conversely, assistant are much more standerdized. Rereading through Dpdoll's posts and his previous offerings I was taking for granted that he had some familiarity with standard provisions for assistants. The clauses he stated seem reasonable.

 

[DrunkGopher]

Got it, your logic makes sense framed in those terms. I assume that Head coaches contracts are much more detailed and the provisions for departure are much more specific (sometimes even job specific as I know was in Kiffin's). Conversely, assistant are much more standerdized. Rereading through Dpdoll's posts and his previous offerings I was taking for granted that he had some familiarity with standard provisions for assistants. The clauses he stated seem reasonable.

I agree that they do seem reasonable because they are exactly what the rules are in the NFL. The only types of clauses that I have been able to find for college coaches are that if they leave they have to buyout their contract, RichRod at West Virginia. Now I realize that Hammock isn't a head coach but look at Roof leaving or Withers or Boise OC or Miss St DC all of these people left for the exact same job somewhere else. Also Texas tried hiring Auburn's OL coach but he turned it down because they gave him a bump in pay so I'm pretty sure there isn't any rules about it.

 

[dpodoll68]

Kill was under contract so were all of his assistant coaches, the only way he wouldn't be able to leave for the same position would be if it was specifically written in his contract, which it usually isn't. This isn't the NFL where teams have rules about contacting coaches, unless its between 2 conference teams and there is a conference rule, its pretty much free game

We're not talking about head coaches, we're talking about assistant coaches. It's pretty much understood that head coaches will leave at the drop of a hat - that's why buyout clauses are inserted into their contracts. Also, head coaches are given multi-year contracts, whereas the standard for assistants is to be on a year-to-year basis. The time for coaches (assistants especially) to change jobs is the period between the end of the season and signing day, because that's when their annual contracts expire and their freedom of movement is not restricted. Think about it - when was the last time you heard of an assistant coach leaving for a lateral position 3 weeks after signing day?

For example, Coach Kill's Minnesota contract included money from the U to pay NIU for his buyout. Again, this is pretty standard. If NIU wanted, it could've toed the line and held his assistants to their contracts until 2/1 (or whenever they expired), but given that the new head coach would likely hire his own assistants anyway, it's pretty much a no-brainer for the university to release employees from their contracts without penalty when they would likely leave (either voluntarily or otherwise) as soon as their contract was up.

I'm not 100% certain on the rules re: assistant coach movement (I may be wrong - I have been before), but they are certainly not the same as the rules re: head coach movement.

 

[dpodoll68]

look at Roof leaving or Withers or Boise OC or Miss St DC all of these people left for the exact same job somewhere else. Also Texas tried hiring Auburn's OL coach but he turned it down because they gave him a bump in pay so I'm pretty sure there isn't any rules about it.

Again, these were all between-season movements, after their contracts were expired (or effectively so). Find me an example of a lateral movement after National Signing Day and then I'll believe that I'm wrong.

 

[GopherGod]

Again, these were all between-season movements, after their contracts were expired (or effectively so). Find me an example of a lateral movement after National Signing Day and then I'll believe that I'm wrong.

Corey Raymond going from DB coach at Indiana to take the same position at Nebraska and Jerry Montgomery went from DL coach at Indiana to same position at Michigan.

 

[DrunkGopher]

We're not talking about head coaches, we're talking about assistant coaches. It's pretty much understood that head coaches will leave at the drop of a hat - that's why buyout clauses are inserted into their contracts. Also, head coaches are given multi-year contracts, whereas the standard for assistants is to be on a year-to-year basis. The time for coaches (assistants especially) to change jobs is the period between the end of the season and signing day, because that's when their annual contracts expire and their freedom of movement is not restricted. Think about it - when was the last time you heard of an assistant coach leaving for a lateral position 3 weeks after signing day?

For example, Coach Kill's Minnesota contract included money from the U to pay NIU for his buyout. Again, this is pretty standard. If NIU wanted, it could've toed the line and held his assistants to their contracts until 2/1 (or whenever they expired), but given that the new head coach would likely hire his own assistants anyway, it's pretty much a no-brainer for the university to release employees from their contracts without penalty when they would likely leave (either voluntarily or otherwise) as soon as their contract was up.

I'm not 100% certain on the rules re: assistant coach movement (I may be wrong - I have been before), but they are certainly not the same as the rules re: head coach movement.

Ok, I didn't realize that most assistant coaches are on only a 1 year contract. But the recruiting coordinator and special teams coach for South Carolina (it was south carolina) annouced after signing day that he would leave for Virginia Tech for the exact same position. The main reason I disagreed with you is because the rules you stated are exactly the same as the ones in the NFL and I didn't think NCAA rules were the same.

 

[atsgopher]

Again, these were all between-season movements, after their contracts were expired (or effectively so). Find me an example of a lateral movement after National Signing Day and then I'll believe that I'm wrong.

Yeah, I think your on to it. This is a more a contract law issue. The contract has to be in writing (satute of frauds- can't be performed in one year), so we can assume there is a standard escape clause and grounds written in for termination or dismissal. Given those assumptions I find it would be highly unlikely from an economic standpoint that Hammock would leave nor would sconnie court him. Otherwise, they would probably be liable for damages given there competitive positions.

This all circles back to the validity of the rumor; I stand by what I said earlier: Rivals perpetuates it's existence through rumors, Innuendo, and drama. It's a self sustaining mechanism inherent in their business model. I think we can safely ignore the rumor for the remainder of the year.

 

[dpodoll68]

Corey Raymond going from DB coach at Indiana to take the same position at Nebraska and Jerry Montgomery went from DL coach at Indiana to same position at Michigan.

Both moved before/on NSD. Besides, they were both brand-new hires at Indiana, so they probably never even signed their coaching contracts there.

 

[dpodoll68]

But the recruiting coordinator and special teams coach for South Carolina (it was south carolina) annouced after signing day that he would leave for Virginia Tech for the exact same position.

Good call, but the important thing to remember is that was a case of a son (Shane Beamer) going to work for his father. I don't think Spurrier was going to keep a son from not working for his dad unless he wanted to be thought of as a huge prick - especially since he has his own son on staff at South Carolina. I never said they couldn't move laterally - just that they aren't allowed to unless they receive permission. You can rest assured that, if that's what it comes down to, Jerry Kill won't allow Hammock to go to Vadgerland if it's under his control.

The main reason I disagreed with you is because the rules you stated are exactly the same as the ones in the NFL and I didn't think NCAA rules were the same.

Like I said, I'm not emphatically stating that I'm right (because I'm not 100% sure), but I don't think that I am wrong. The rules of competition and fair labor dictate that competitors can't poach employees for lateral movements. If they could, you would see a lot more poaching of non-BCS staffs by BCS coaches in February, March, April than you do.

 

[GopherGod]

Both moved before/on NSD. Besides, they were both brand-new hires at Indiana, so they probably never even signed their coaching contracts there.

They were working for Indiana up through national signing day and not announced nor representing their new schools till after NSD in the case of Raymond atleast. If you have proof they didn't sign a contract at Indiana, please share.

 

[mplsbadger]

Badgers just swiped a coach from Purdue who had been on staff for less than a month. I think he moved after signing day. I think most assistant contracts allow free movement.

 

[Killjoy]

Assistant Coaches' Contract

Corey Raymond going from DB coach at Indiana to take the same position at Nebraska and Jerry Montgomery went from DL coach at Indiana to same position at Michigan.

It seems that many of us are having a difficult time staying on topic here. Therefore I will try to summarize what the issues are and what we have learned or haven’t learned so far. First – We are not talking about head coaches. Second - We are talking about when and under what conditions an assistant coach can leave his present position for another position at another school.

I have been led to believe from comments here that it is normal for assistant coaches to sign annual contracts that terminate approximately February 1st. At that time the school may choose to renew or not to renew the contract. Of course, the assistant coach also can choose to seek employment elsewhere. I don’t know if this was the case for the two coaches listed in the comment above, but if it was it, would be consistent with this statement.

Also stated as a possibility scenario was that if an assistant coach under contract receives an offer from another school he could leave as long as the offer was for a “higher” position and included a raise. I am less sure about this for a variety of reasons. It would seem that the contract would have to specifically state this or that the school would have to release the coach before he could go.

Please clarify or add to the above.

 

[mplsbadger]

It seems that many of us are having a difficult time staying on topic here. Therefore I will try to summarize what the issues are and what we have learned or haven’t learned so far. First – We are not talking about head coaches. Second - We are talking about when and under what conditions an assistant coach can leave his present position for another position at another school.

I have been led to believe from comments here that it is normal for assistant coaches to sign annual contracts that terminate approximately February 1st. At that time the school may choose to renew or not to renew the contract. Of course, the assistant coach also can choose to seek employment elsewhere. I don’t know if this was the case for the two coaches listed in the comment above, but if it was it, would be consistent with this statement.

Also stated as a possibility scenario was that if an assistant coach under contract receives an offer from another school he could leave as long as the offer was for a “higher” position and included a raise. I am less sure about this for a variety of reasons. It would seem that the contract would have to specifically state this or that the school would have to release the coach before he could go.

Please clarify or add to the above.

People are confusing the NFL and college. While a university certainly could put in a 'can leave only for a promotion' clause as they have in the NFL, there are no standard rules governing it. In the NFL there are league wide anti-tampering rules.

If I'm a college assistant, the only way I consent to such a clause is if I'm guaranteed more than a year. While this may be standard for someone like Christ or Brewster's first o.c. Dunbar?, it is not likely standard for most assistants.

The article below gives an example of an assistant that was plucked from Purdue's staff less than a month after starting - certainly while under contract with Purdue, and after national signing day.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/badgers/116518188.html

 

[GoAUpher]

So while this spins into a discussion about contract law has anyone heard anything of any actual substance about the OP's claim?

 

[dpodoll68]

The article below gives an example of an assistant that was plucked from Purdue's staff less than a month after starting - certainly while under contract with Purdue, and after national signing day.

Yes, and he went from position coach to special teams coordinator.

Also, it's not a given that he ever signed a contract with Purdue. I don't think people appreciate how long these guys sometimes go without signing a contract. Hell, Billy Gillispie never signed a contract with Kentucky, and he was their head coach for 3 years. I'm not saying that he didn't sign a contract, but it's by no means a certainty that he did, especially since he had been there barely 3 weeks.

 

[atsgopher]

People are confusing the NFL and college. While a university certainly could put in a 'can leave only for a promotion' clause as they have in the NFL, there are no standard rules governing it. In the NFL there are league wide anti-tampering rules.

I don't think anyone confused college with the NFL. One poster did believe that another was guilty of this, but it was cleared up.

I am unsure (I don't watch the NFL) but I would think that a standard rule governing coaching moves would have no legal effect; it would be a violation in restraint of trade? Seems like something that must be contract specific and then it would be limited to competition where time and place were restricted.

 

[MNBadgerGuy]

nm

 

[dpodoll68]

nm

False. First of all, the respective fanbases found out about these hires on or about signing day. Look it up if you don't believe me. Safe to say that the coaching staffs knew before the general public, yes? The "official" announcements are 100% immaterial as to when a coach was actually hired.

Second of all, I am not infallible, but I am right waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more often than I am wrong.

Why'd you edit your post? Too chicken to stand by your original comments? I'm not surprised that a Badger fan is red, white, and yellow.

 

[Iceland12]

People are confusing the NFL and college. While a university certainly could put in a 'can leave only for a promotion' clause as they have in the NFL, there are no standard rules governing it. In the NFL there are league wide anti-tampering rules.

If I'm a college assistant, the only way I consent to such a clause is if I'm guaranteed more than a year. While this may be standard for someone like Christ or Brewster's first o.c. Dunbar?, it is not likely standard for most assistants.

The article below gives an example of an assistant that was plucked from Purdue's staff less than a month after starting - certainly while under contract with Purdue, and after national signing day.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/badgers/116518188.html

That has to be the first time Christ and Dunbar were mentioned in the same sentence. I'm assuming it was Paul Chryst but since many football fans claim otherwise I thought it should be mentioned.

 

[DrunkGopher]

I don't think anyone confused college with the NFL. One poster did believe that another was guilty of this, but it was cleared up.

I am unsure (I don't watch the NFL) but I would think that a standard rule governing coaching moves would have no legal effect; it would be a violation in restraint of trade? Seems like something that must be contract specific and then it would be limited to competition where time and place were restricted.

I'm pretty sure the reason the NFL can make rules like that and not be considered breaking the law or something is because they are a private organization and when you join the league you accept some regulations that are different than the US. Just like if the NCAA finds you guilty of recruiting violations they don't have to find you guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, they just have to find you guilty in the infractions committees eyes.

I would not be surprised if I am completely wrong on this but I think that is why.

 

[mplsbadger]

Yes, and he went from position coach to special teams coordinator.

Also, it's not a given that he ever signed a contract with Purdue. I don't think people appreciate how long these guys sometimes go without signing a contract. Hell, Billy Gillispie never signed a contract with Kentucky, and he was their head coach for 3 years. I'm not saying that he didn't sign a contract, but it's by no means a certainty that he did, especially since he had been there barely 3 weeks.

This says he had a contract.

http://www.jconline.com/article/201...Purdue-football-assistant-takes-Wisconsin-job

 

[mplsbadger]

That has to be the first time Christ and Dunbar were mentioned in the same sentence. I'm assuming it was Paul Chryst but since many football fans claim otherwise I thought it should be mentioned.

Yes Chryst. You'd think I'd know better. Went to high school with two brothers named Christ.

 

[dpodoll68]

This says he had a contract.

http://www.jconline.com/article/201...Purdue-football-assistant-takes-Wisconsin-job

Ok, thanks...but he still received a promotion.

 

[atsgopher]

I'm pretty sure the reason the NFL can make rules like that and not be considered breaking the law or something is because they are a private organization and when you join the league you accept some regulations that are different than the US. Just like if the NCAA finds you guilty of recruiting violations they don't have to find you guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, they just have to find you guilty in the infractions committees eyes.

I would not be surprised if I am completely wrong on this but I think that is why.

The NFL does have history on this; they have been trying for years to beat the Anti-competitve rules only to be consistently shot down by the Supreme Court. They have long been jealous (or at least acted that way) of the ani-trust exemption granted to MLB by congress. The logic (legal argument) has always been that a team can't play a game against itself. Thus, they are in direct competition against one another.

However, you could very well be right that the NFL has structured the anti tampering deal to be a voluntary submission to some league rule...I guess the legailty will be tested when one coach loses out on some money in a contract or there is clear disparity and the negoating power of a coach is undermined due to the rule. Then the coach will gethave standing to sue and the league will fight tooth and nail. I seem to remember the league losing at least several times like the whole Plan B thing (remember Freeman McNeil sued in Mpls).

I really don't know much about the rule though, it just sounds like something the NFL always would whip up only to get shot down.

 

[RedPoo]

If we're finished making dpo defend his thesis on the rights and merits of assistant coach job changes, does anyone have any more information on this than the OP? All I'm seeing is a reference to a post about this...is there anything else? What exactly did this post say? Internet searches have proven fruitless.