This is why we don't/won't land top prospects under Tubby

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Go Gophs eh? said:
lol kentucky fans, its so false look at all the championships being won under cal, look at the wonderful student athletes maintaining team cumulative 2.0 gpas, look at all the cheating that totally isnt going on, cough cough anthony davis cough. go work for the ncaa so that when the violations drop you can be cal's inside man and burn all the records.
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The UK freshman recruits earned about 2.9 GPA this summer.
 

The Truth said:
Kentucky isn't Memphis and he's able to recruit at a level on par with the other traditional powerhouses. Kids want to play for him and Kentucky. It's not that hard of a sale job if you're willing to work hard on the trail: "Play for me, play at one of the most prestigious places in all of basketball, play hard and I won't hold you back from your dreams." Would you feel better if he had told John and DeMarcus to come back? A lot of coaches would have done that but that's not who he is.
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There is some truth to this. But how long do you think UK can have 2-3 guys bailing early each year before it starts to effect scholarship numbers? Do you really think Cal will win a title with a bunch of one and dones? I'm not sure what coaches would "hold them back from their dreams". Izzo for example is well known for telling his players if you can get 1st round assured money go, otherwise come back and improve your draft stock.

Kentucky fans are funny (not saying you in particular) because when Cal was at Memphis all we heard was how big a cheat he was and how people couldn't wait until he got busted. Now that he's at UK and puling in #1 recruiting classes year in year out he's a great coach that hasn't done anything wrong ever. I'm not sure if he has, but there is a lot of smoke around the guy and based on my conversations w/ players at Memphis (where I attend finishing my degree) there was some shady *&^!#*&^!#*&^!#*&^!# goin on.
 

The Truth said:
Kentucky isn't Memphis and he's able to recruit at a level on par with the other traditional powerhouses. Kids want to play for him and Kentucky. It's not that hard of a sale job if you're willing to work hard on the trail: "Play for me, play at one of the most prestigious places in all of basketball, play hard and I won't hold you back from your dreams." Would you feel better if he had told John and DeMarcus to come back? A lot of coaches would have done that but that's not who he is.



Really? These comments are funny to me because they just parrot a line of thinking that is popular but patently false.
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The Truth: wake up. It is 2010. UK is not one of the prestigious places in the country any more. Butler has more attraction than UK theses days. UK looks like a business than a University. Prestig was gone when Tubby and Rick left. UK and its fans are nothing but a joke now.

Go Gophers
 

Kentucky is still getting top 5 recruiting classes. I don't care if Tubby never gets the top 20 players who are probably thinking one and done. What did Humphries and Joel P. do for the u? I just hope he can get a decent amount of those top 30-100 guys to fill a majority of his roster.
 

The-Real-Truth said:
The Truth: wake up. It is 2010. UK is not one of the prestigious places in the country any more. Butler has more attraction than UK theses days. UK looks like a business than a University. Prestig was gone when Tubby and Rick left. UK and its fans are nothing but a joke now.

Go Gophers
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It's one of the Top 4 basketball programs now - Duke, UNC, Kansas, and UK.
 


Justinc882 said:
There is some truth to this. But how long do you think UK can have 2-3 guys bailing early each year before it starts to effect scholarship numbers? Do you really think Cal will win a title with a bunch of one and dones? I'm not sure what coaches would "hold them back from their dreams". Izzo for example is well known for telling his players if you can get 1st round assured money go, otherwise come back and improve your draft stock.

Kentucky fans are funny (not saying you in particular) because when Cal was at Memphis all we heard was how big a cheat he was and how people couldn't wait until he got busted. Now that he's at UK and puling in #1 recruiting classes year in year out he's a great coach that hasn't done anything wrong ever. I'm not sure if he has, but there is a lot of smoke around the guy and based on my conversations w/ players at Memphis (where I attend finishing my degree) there was some shady *&^!#*&^!#*&^!#*&^!# goin on.
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Yes - I think Calipari can win NC with the talent he's getting at UK. Will he? That's the question.

But lack of talent won't be the reason.
 


Now it has the reputation of cheating. top 4 are Duke, Kansas, UNC, and MSU
 

Go Gophs eh? said:
Now it has the reputation of cheating. top 4 are Duke, Kansas, UNC, and MSU
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To fans outside of Kentucky it has that reputation, but not to the Kentucky basketball fans and the recruits. And as long as those two groups are happy with the University, I don't think the school minds. (Unless, of course, they are actually cheating ...) to top recruits though, Kentucky is one of the best places to be under coach Cal.
 





Justinc882 said:
There is some truth to this. But how long do you think UK can have 2-3 guys bailing early each year before it starts to effect scholarship numbers? Do you really think Cal will win a title with a bunch of one and dones? I'm not sure what coaches would "hold them back from their dreams". Izzo for example is well known for telling his players if you can get 1st round assured money go, otherwise come back and improve your draft stock.

Kentucky fans are funny (not saying you in particular) because when Cal was at Memphis all we heard was how big a cheat he was and how people couldn't wait until he got busted. Now that he's at UK and puling in #1 recruiting classes year in year out he's a great coach that hasn't done anything wrong ever. I'm not sure if he has, but there is a lot of smoke around the guy and based on my conversations w/ players at Memphis (where I attend finishing my degree) there was some shady *&^!#*&^!#*&^!#*&^!# goin on.
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No one expected four freshman to be picked in the first round. I know Calipari and his staff didn't. John Wall was a no-brainer but even Demarcus and his mother were told he needed a lot of work and to mature if he wanted to make it. There were zero expectations in terms of draft status in regards to Eric and Daniel coming in. Daniel's decision came even more out of left field and there was a lot of family stuff going on that I'm not comfortable with sharing but he was encouraged to explore his options like the others.

Doron Lamb, Stacey Poole and Eloy Vargas are three players who will be around 2-4 years in the program unless they exceed those expectations. I question if Knight will go after one year because of the value his family places on education but if he's projected lottery they're not going to hold him back. Kanter's too good to stay and Jones is an enigma. He's got all the tools the NBA covets but is he a 3 or a 4? You're going to have a deep pool of talent with Poole, Lamb, Miller, Liggins, Polson, Vargas and Hood with the possibility of either Jones or Knight returning to go along with Gilchrist, Teague and Davis and whoever else gets added.* Of course you can never predict these things with 100% accuracy because you're dealing with so many different factors in play.

As to your second point:

I think people are hypocritical, petty and prone to extremism when it comes to sports. I've got some insight into the Memphis Basketball program in the Calipari era as well due to a relative who worked closely with the Men's Basketball Program and the Grizzlies via a Corporate Partner. Never heard anything that didn't go on at every other major program (and yes there were probably several things that towed the line like the car thing but even Tubby Smith lets that stuff slide because it's so hard to prove.) with the exception of one: Strangely, a handful of extremely well paying internships seem to always fall into the hands of basketball each summer. I've heard the NCAA looked into it and said "fine" but I've never confirmed that. Really not that shocking as that type of stuff goes on everywhere.

And yes, I do think he can win a championship with his recruiting strategy. He wants to recruit the best of the best. He's just going to need a more complete team than he had his first year. As talented as they were, as fun as they were to watch, they still had some holes that just couldn't be filled and a lot of them showed in the WVU game.

*and that's a whole different conversation and what's pissing off a lot of Calipari's non-friends in the coaching fraternity.
 

The Truth said:
No one expected four freshman to be picked in the first round. I know Calipari and his staff didn't. John Wall was a no-brainer but even Demarcus and his mother were told he needed a lot of work and to mature if he wanted to make it. There were zero expectations in terms of draft status in regards to Eric and Daniel coming in. Daniel's decision came even more out of left field and there was a lot of family stuff going on that I'm not comfortable with sharing but he was encouraged to explore his options like the others.

Doron Lamb, Stacey Poole and Eloy Vargas are three players who will be around 2-4 years in the program unless they exceed those expectations. I question if Knight will go after one year because of the value his family places on education but if he's projected lottery they're not going to hold him back. Kanter's too good to stay and Jones is an enigma. He's got all the tools the NBA covets but is he a 3 or a 4? You're going to have a deep pool of talent with Poole, Lamb, Miller, Liggins, Polson, Vargas and Hood with the possibility of either Jones or Knight returning to go along with Gilchrist, Teague and Davis and whoever else gets added.* Of course you can never predict these things with 100% accuracy because you're dealing with so many different factors in play.

As to your second point:

I think people are hypocritical, petty and prone to extremism when it comes to sports. I've got some insight into the Memphis Basketball program in the Calipari era as well due to a relative who worked closely with the Men's Basketball Program and the Grizzlies via a Corporate Partner. Never heard anything that didn't go on at every other major program (and yes there were probably several things that towed the line like the car thing but even Tubby Smith lets that stuff slide because it's so hard to prove.) with the exception of one: Strangely, a handful of extremely well paying internships seem to always fall into the hands of basketball each summer. I've heard the NCAA looked into it and said "fine" but I've never confirmed that. Really not that shocking as that type of stuff goes on everywhere.

And yes, I do think he can win a championship with his recruiting strategy. He wants to recruit the best of the best. He's just going to need a more complete team than he had his first year. As talented as they were, as fun as they were to watch, they still had some holes that just couldn't be filled and a lot of them showed in the WVU game.

*and that's a whole different conversation and what's pissing off a lot of Calipari's non-friends in the coaching fraternity.
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Huggins and Calipari are/were good friends. Huggs takes the right approach. Ignore his recruits, just beat them like a drum (8 out of 9 head-2-head tries) on the court.

Keith Bogans drove a Cadillac Escalade (at times) while he attended UK. I have no idea where he got it, or if he even owned it. UK knew all about it so it must have been legal per NCAA rules.

UK's Achilles Heel was 3-pt FG shooting (only 33%) last year.
 



Truth,

I guess you have a point. I personally don't think he'll win a championship. I think with idiotic statements like his "if you recruit a kid you know will be in school for 4 years you go to the NIT" there's a reason why MSU beat Louisville, Uconn, came back to beat Kansas, held on to beat a very talented USC team. It's because we had a 5th year senior center and a 4 year senior PG. Talent and depth are great but young players, no matter how talented, will make mistakes in the big moments and that's where experience comes in. I didn't watch many UK games this year but the few I did it seemed like they relied way to much on the young guys and that (at least for now and as far as I know) seems to be what the make up of UK's team will be.

Cal is a "good" coach, I want to see Cal have a FF stay on the books before i start anointing him as one of the great coaches in college bball. Arguably the best recruiter, but until he makes the FF and has it stay I can't include him as a great coach. Honestly the fact that UK paid so much money for a guy that's never (legitimately) won anything outside of a CUSA title still boggles my mind.

I guess the Cal thing will be like the bigten this year, we will have to wait and see.

To be honest i'm torn because I'm a MSU fan but I've always liked UK, MSU and Kentucky have a long history of playing some great, great games (still wish we could get a basketbowl part 2). I'd love to see UK win the championship, but I really don't like Cal and my concern is that if they do it will eventually get vacated. Which I would hate to see happen to one of my favorite teams.
 

Justinc882 said:
Truth,

I guess you have a point. I personally don't think he'll win a championship. I think with idiotic statements like his "if you recruit a kid you know will be in school for 4 years you go to the NIT" there's a reason why MSU beat Louisville, Uconn, came back to beat Kansas, held on to beat a very talented USC team. It's because we had a 5th year senior center and a 4 year senior PG. Talent and depth are great but young players, no matter how talented, will make mistakes in the big moments and that's where experience comes in. I didn't watch many UK games this year but the few I did it seemed like they relied way to much on the young guys and that (at least for now and as far as I know) seems to be what the make up of UK's team will be.

Cal is a "good" coach, I want to see Cal have a FF stay on the books before i start anointing him as one of the great coaches in college bball. Arguably the best recruiter, but until he makes the FF and has it stay I can't include him as a great coach. Honestly the fact that UK paid so much money for a guy that's never (legitimately) won anything outside of a CUSA title still boggles my mind.

I guess the Cal thing will be like the bigten this year, we will have to wait and see.

To be honest i'm torn because I'm a MSU fan but I've always liked UK, MSU and Kentucky have a long history of playing some great, great games (still wish we could get a basketbowl part 2). I'd love to see UK win the championship, but I really don't like Cal and my concern is that if they do it will eventually get vacated. Which I would hate to see happen to one of my favorite teams.
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You beat those teams because Izzo is an outstanding coach. I have nothing but respect and praise in the way Izzo has turned Michigan State into a national power. I know Izzo has enjoyed a friendship with both Tubby and Calipari and I would love to see a reestablishment of a series between our programs.

I'm just going to have to disagree with your other points. Talent wins games (and one of the biggest misconceptions is that Izzo has done what he's done without talent. That's patently false and I think you would agree with that) and no successful coach has ever lacked talent. Coaching plays more a part than some want to give credit for (and those that say Calipari can't coach or just rolls the ball out have a limited understanding of the game or appreciation of what he accomplished at a place like UMass) but no coach is going to turn down a player because "Well, we already have too much talent."
 

The Truth said:
You beat those teams because Izzo is an outstanding coach. I have nothing but respect and praise in the way Izzo has turned Michigan State into a national power. I know Izzo has enjoyed a friendship with both Tubby and Calipari and I would love to see a reestablishment of a series between our programs.

I'm just going to have to disagree with your other points. Talent wins games (and one of the biggest misconceptions is that Izzo has done what he's done without talent. That's patently false and I think you would agree with that) and no successful coach has ever lacked talent. Coaching plays more a part than some want to give credit for (and those that say Calipari can't coach or just rolls the ball out have a limited understanding of the game or appreciation of what he accomplished at a place like UMass) but no coach is going to turn down a player because "Well, we already have too much talent."
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John Wooden would agree with you. He said as much in his book They Call Me Coach.

So a coach that won 76% of his games over 10 years, 72% of NCAA games (both Top 5 % in that timeframe), and conference titles plus conference tourneys 50% of the time HAD to have recruited some very good talent to do so.
 

Justinc882 said:
Truth,

I guess you have a point. I personally don't think he'll win a championship. I think with idiotic statements like his "if you recruit a kid you know will be in school for 4 years you go to the NIT" there's a reason why MSU beat Louisville, Uconn, came back to beat Kansas, held on to beat a very talented USC team. It's because we had a 5th year senior center and a 4 year senior PG. Talent and depth are great but young players, no matter how talented, will make mistakes in the big moments and that's where experience comes in. I didn't watch many UK games this year but the few I did it seemed like they relied way to much on the young guys and that (at least for now and as far as I know) seems to be what the make up of UK's team will be.

Cal is a "good" coach, I want to see Cal have a FF stay on the books before i start anointing him as one of the great coaches in college bball. Arguably the best recruiter, but until he makes the FF and has it stay I can't include him as a great coach. Honestly the fact that UK paid so much money for a guy that's never (legitimately) won anything outside of a CUSA title still boggles my mind.

I guess the Cal thing will be like the bigten this year, we will have to wait and see.

To be honest i'm torn because I'm a MSU fan but I've always liked UK, MSU and Kentucky have a long history of playing some great, great games (still wish we could get a basketbowl part 2). I'd love to see UK win the championship, but I really don't like Cal and my concern is that if they do it will eventually get vacated. Which I would hate to see happen to one of my favorite teams.
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http://www.bigbluehistory.net/bb/Statistics/MichiganState.html Spartans kept UK out of FF in 1957, 1999, and 2005. UK eked out W and therefore FF in 1978.
 

Friend Of Tubby said:
http://www.bigbluehistory.net/bb/Statistics/MichiganState.html Spartans kept UK out of FF in 1957, 1999, and 2005. UK eked out W and therefore FF in 1978.
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yup, the two teams have a great history. It seems like every game is a big one.

And yes, talent wins games. But it certainly helped during the USC game when the size and athleticism of USC's guards had our sophs really rattled to have a senior calmly step up. It really helped during Louisville to have Suton step up. I'm not knocking talent, and yes anyone who thinks Izzo hasn't had good talent is either a moron or Doug Gottlieb. I just think people put so much credence on young players, and young stars that they ignore the value of good solid 4 year guys. I'll never forget after we beat Louisville ESPN ran a "Tom Izzo over, under or properly rated". Rob parker (who has a loooong history of hating Izzo) made a comment about Izzo being over rated because he only goes to FF's with guys that aren't good enough to go pro as freshmen. As though staying four years at a bigten school is a bad thing.

Izzo had a few years, mostly the 2005 and 2006 classes where we signed Suton, Ibok, Gray, Walton and Joseph that were down. Really only Walton and Suton were major players. We also suffered some bad luck w/ Taylor going early against advice and Cotten transferring. Recruiting has picked up lately as well as our luck. Except this summer with a lot of weird injuries.
 

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