The teams the Gophers beat...

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The reality is that Green probably could have run some version of the run heavy Oregon/ Chip Kelly system here with less or very little passing, other than a very low risk deep ball , or play action pass, so yes Green might have been OK this year under Claeys. The former OC from Lakeville, with all his finesse crap, hired by TC generally sucked last year, and probably cost TC 1 or 2 wins- pound the ball with the 3 RBs equals more wins in 2016)

I'd like to see Green get a chance to play bit this year since the season is in the crapper. (a win vs. Wisconsin makes the season a great success though, and non UW 2 more wins against anyone makes the season an elite year zero in my book, but I expect less) I fully expect a 1-8 BT record or maybe 2-7 if somehow something goes well Saturday.

The tickets on GopherSports are $90 per seat in the worst seats for this game vs. Nebraska, so I am not sure what the walk up is going to be for this. Does Coyle think this is the Tom OsBorne 1997 team visiting?
 

btowngopher said:
Wrong. Fleck did have to rebuild. 9 wins and not sniffing the conference title should not be viewed as the pinnacle for this program. Fleck is putting his systems in place, just like any other new coach does. Everyone is so worried that we aren't mediocre again this year. Instead we are bad, but lets give it some time. Mason, Kill, Claeys, even Brew for a couple years had us at mediocre. It's not that hard to be mediocre, I'm sure Fleck will have us back to the mediocrity you all crave in a year or two. The goal is to get past that. Does taking a step back to achieve that really matter?
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Nailed it.
 


btowngopher said:
Wrong. Fleck did have to rebuild. 9 wins and not sniffing the conference title should not be viewed as the pinnacle for this program. Fleck is putting his systems in place, just like any other new coach does. Everyone is so worried that we aren't mediocre again this year. Instead we are bad, but lets give it some time. Mason, Kill, Claeys, even Brew for a couple years had us at mediocre. It's not that hard to be mediocre, I'm sure Fleck will have us back to the mediocrity you all crave in a year or two. The goal is to get past that. Does taking a step back to achieve that really matter?
Click to expand...

"Fleck did have to rebuild. 9 wins and not sniffing the conference title should not be viewed as the pinnacle for this program."

Well, no one suggested that 9 wins should be viewed as the pinnacle of the program so you're making a false argument.

"Everyone is so worried that we aren't mediocre again this year."

You went with your emotions in this post and as you proceeded through it your wording became successively dumber. First of all, if you mean "average" is mediocre, then I guess we were mediocre. The truth is that over the previous four years, this team was the best team of the bottom 7 of the Big Ten. That makes the team "average" over that time period in one of the better FBS conferences rather than mediocre.

Am I satisfied that the Gophers didn't go beyond "average" over the time period? Well, no, but I sure as hell prefer average over doormat which is what we have been this year.

"The goal is to get past that"

Yeah, well don't all coaches say that?

There are people like you in every fan base. The new boss will alway be the savior who is better than the old boss. Maybe Fleck will be but we'll see.

Does taking a step back to achieve that really matter?


If you have empirical evidence that having a terrible year in college sports makes a team better in the long run and improves chances for success in the future, please give us the citation. This isn't pro sports where terrible years get you higher draft picks.
 


GopherWeatherGuy said:
Last year's regular season's wins were vs teams that totaled a record of 28-62 for a winning percentage of .31. That included a 4-7 FCS team.
Without the FCS team is was 24-55 for a winning percentage of .30. If I add the bowl game that bumps it to 32-60 for a winning percentage of .35.

This year 10-26 equals a winning percentage of .28, so pretty similar to last year's regular season.
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What a stupid metric. Under your scenario, we could go 1-11 with the one win being against a .500 team. Would that .5 winning percentage mean that we were more successful than a year ago.....when we won 9 games? Ummmm.......no.
 

stocker08 said:
What a stupid metric. Under your scenario, we could go 1-11 with the one win being against a .500 team. Would that .5 winning percentage mean that we were more successful than a year ago.....when we won 9 games? Ummmm.......no.
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All I did was exactly what the OP did.
 

cjbfbp said:


Does taking a step back to achieve that really matter?


If you have empirical evidence that having a terrible year in college sports makes a team better in the long run and improves chances for success in the future, please give us the citation. This isn't pro sports where terrible years get you higher draft picks.
Click to expand...


Spot. On.
We all want a brighter future. Puzzling why some are convinced that means we needed to be what we are this year.


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cjbfbp said:

"Fleck did have to rebuild. 9 wins and not sniffing the conference title should not be viewed as the pinnacle for this program."

Well, no one suggested that 9 wins should be viewed as the pinnacle of the program so you're making a false argument.

"Everyone is so worried that we aren't mediocre again this year."

You went with your emotions in this post and as you proceeded through it your wording became successively dumber. First of all, if you mean "average" is mediocre, then I guess we were mediocre. The truth is that over the previous four years, this team was the best team of the bottom 7 of the Big Ten. That makes the team "average" over that time period in one of the better FBS conferences rather than mediocre.

Am I satisfied that the Gophers didn't go beyond "average" over the time period? Well, no, but I sure as hell prefer average over doormat which is what we have been this year.

"The goal is to get past that"

Yeah, well don't all coaches say that?

There are people like you in every fan base. The new boss will alway be the savior who is better than the old boss. Maybe Fleck will be but we'll see.

Does taking a step back to achieve that really matter?


If you have empirical evidence that having a terrible year in college sports makes a team better in the long run and improves chances for success in the future, please give us the citation. This isn't pro sports where terrible years get you higher draft picks.
Click to expand...


Spot on!

9 wins - It's not the greatest thing in the world, but it felt like the right direction.

"Everyone is worried we aren't mediocre again this year" - What a truly idiotic statement. No, we are worried that we are WAY LESS than mediocre. Mediocre sounds delightful right now.

"The goal is to get past that" - Yep, but to get past that, we have to get through those years as well.

As others have pointed out, this isn't pro sports. "Tanking" speed up the rebuild.

All of that said, this isn't really an indictment of PJ Fleck. I have confidence in him and I am not overly thinking his first year. However, some of BS coming from his supports is insane.

Winning 9 games at MN is an accomplishment. I'm sure you'll see it that way when/if PJ wins 9 games.
If/when PJ wins 9 games, I will feel like we are heading in the right (here is a key word coming up) DIRECTION.
 





GFBfan said:
Post 4 by you and then your non reply to post 36. That's just in this thread.
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Post 4 states the record of the opponents we beat last year which is exactly what post 1 did for this year. What is skewed or inaccurate?

If you want to argue that this thread is stupid and we shouldn’t do comparisons until the season is over, then I’d agree.
 

Spoofin said:
Spot. On.
We all want a brighter future. Puzzling why some are convinced that means we needed to be what we are this year.


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Do some of you really think the team/coaches are trying to lose on purpose? Is there anyone that truly believes that they don't want to win this year if possible? Why would Fleck want to have a crappy season and subject himself to all the criticism? Are some of you really so cynical as to think a coach would tank on purpose just so that he will look better when the team wins more games a few years later? As others have pointed out, there is no real reason to tank in college sports, you don't get a higher draft pick out of it so there is literally no reason to try and make your team and yourself look bad.

I get that many don't like Fleck's style but how they can look at this roster and think we should be significantly better then we are right now is beyond me.
 

Excellence is in the small details and I don't think Fleck or some of the posters here have emphasized that this season based on what I've seen and read. Purposefully tanking is different than not giving a best effort and looking ahead. For example, the game plan vs Maryland on both sides of the ball was really odd. Playing a hobbled Durr instead of having a contingency plan to move Ayinde over or play Justus was not a great coaching moment either for Fleck, or Durr, or the team.
 

MNVCGUY said:
Do some of you really think the team/coaches are trying to lose on purpose? Is there anyone that truly believes that they don't want to win this year if possible? Why would Fleck want to have a crappy season and subject himself to all the criticism? Are some of you really so cynical as to think a coach would tank on purpose just so that he will look better when the team wins more games a few years later? As others have pointed out, there is no real reason to tank in college sports, you don't get a higher draft pick out of it so there is literally no reason to try and make your team and yourself look bad.

I get that many don't like Fleck's style but how they can look at this roster and think we should be significantly better then we are right now is beyond me.
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There is a big difference between trying to lose and not doing everything possible to win. I have never suggested PJ wants to lose or is trying to lose. That is silly. However, there have been many discussions already on things PJ has done at the expense of winning. Hell, he has said himself that results don't matter this year. Many times. Look no further than MD game for an example.


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Spoofin said:
There is a big difference between trying to lose and not doing everything possible to win. I have never suggested PJ wants to lose or is trying to lose. That is silly. However, there have been many discussions already on things PJ has done at the expense of winning. Hell, he has said himself that results don't matter this year. Many times. Look no further than MD game for an example.


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What are the things he did at the expense of winning?
 

The arguing in this thread has become tiresome.
I think it can roughly fall into two groups

Group A (Anti-Flecks)

Expected more wins this year.
Didn't think PJ is doing everything he can to win this year.
More worried about the feelings of the juniors and seniors
Far more skeptical of PJ long term
Seem far more convinced that Claeys would have won more games
Seem to think there was no or very little problem with the way the football program was run off the field
More times than not, seem to hate Coyle
Blames Coyle for Claeys firing
Believed last year was a good or great year for the football program
Seem more concerned about purely wins
Believe strongly that Kill was a big success

Group B (Pro-Flecks)
Not as worried about results this year
Seem to believe in PJ more and willing to let him make more decisions (or mistakes) this year which could help the program down the road.
Seem to trust PJ is doing the right thing long term
Didn't think Claeys should have kept the job no matter what. (strictly interim only)
Blames Claeys for Claeys firing / or Claeys lack of negotiation for a better contract a year prior
Believed last year was a bad year for the football program
Seem more worried about the view of the program from outside of the die-hard Gopher football fan
Seem more future focused
More skeptical that what Jerry Kill did here was really that great.
 

Face The Facts said:
The arguing in this thread has become tiresome.
I think it can roughly fall into two groups

Group A (Anti-Flecks)

Expected more wins this year.
Didn't think PJ is doing everything he can to win this year.
More worried about the feelings of the juniors and seniors
Far more skeptical of PJ long term
Seem far more convinced that Claeys would have won more games
Seem to think there was no or very little problem with the way the football program was run off the field
More times than not, seem to hate Coyle
Blames Coyle for Claeys firing
Believed last year was a good or great year for the football program
Seem more concerned about purely wins
Believe strongly that Kill was a big success

Group B (Pro-Flecks)
Not as worried about results this year
Seem to believe in PJ more and willing to let him make more decisions (or mistakes) this year which could help the program down the road.
Seem to trust PJ is doing the right thing long term
Didn't think Claeys should have kept the job no matter what. (strictly interim only)
Blames Claeys for Claeys firing / or Claeys lack of negotiation for a better contract a year prior
Believed last year was a bad year for the football program
Seem more worried about the view of the program from outside of the die-hard Gopher football fan
Seem more future focused
More skeptical that what Jerry Kill did here was really that great.
Click to expand...

Think you nailed the anti-fleck crowd and are not far off on the pro-fleck crowd. Would disagree on the thinking that last year was a bad year though because it wasn't a bad year (9 wins can never be viewed as bad) it just wasn't as great a year as some want to make it out to be based solely on the record. A win over Wisconsin or Iowa would have made it a great year. We beat a lot of really bad teams, nothing to apologize for because you have to play the teams on your schedule just nothing to get all high and mighty about either.
 

Face The Facts said:
The arguing in this thread has become tiresome.
I think it can roughly fall into two groups

Group A (Anti-Flecks)

Expected more wins this year.
Didn't think PJ is doing everything he can to win this year.
More worried about the feelings of the juniors and seniors
Far more skeptical of PJ long term
Seem far more convinced that Claeys would have won more games
Seem to think there was no or very little problem with the way the football program was run off the field
More times than not, seem to hate Coyle
Blames Coyle for Claeys firing
Believed last year was a good or great year for the football program
Seem more concerned about purely wins
Believe strongly that Kill was a big success

Group B (Pro-Flecks)
Not as worried about results this year
Seem to believe in PJ more and willing to let him make more decisions (or mistakes) this year which could help the program down the road.
Seem to trust PJ is doing the right thing long term
Didn't think Claeys should have kept the job no matter what. (strictly interim only)
Blames Claeys for Claeys firing / or Claeys lack of negotiation for a better contract a year prior
Believed last year was a year without significant victories and too much off the field issues.
Seem more worried about the view of the program from outside of the die-hard Gopher football fan
Seem more future focused
More skeptical that what Jerry Kill did here was really that great.
Click to expand...

Version 2!
 

Face The Facts said:
What are the things he did at the expense of winning?
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Not going down this road again. Been discussed too many times already. Refusal to stop Inside Zone vs MD, playing Coney Durr vs Purdue, and many other examples. Painfully obvious to me.


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MNVCGUY said:
Think you nailed the anti-fleck crowd and are not far off on the pro-fleck crowd. Would disagree on the thinking that last year was a bad year though because it wasn't a bad year (9 wins can never be viewed as bad) it just wasn't as great a year as some want to make it out to be based solely on the record. A win over Wisconsin or Iowa would have made it a great year. We beat a lot of really bad teams, nothing to apologize for because you have to play the teams on your schedule just nothing to get all high and mighty about either.
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Don't think he is close on either.
 


MNVCGUY said:
Think you nailed the anti-fleck crowd and are not far off on the pro-fleck crowd. Would disagree on the thinking that last year was a bad year though because it wasn't a bad year (9 wins can never be viewed as bad) it just wasn't as great a year as some want to make it out to be based solely on the record. A win over Wisconsin or Iowa would have made it a great year. We beat a lot of really bad teams, nothing to apologize for because you have to play the teams on your schedule just nothing to get all high and mighty about either.
Click to expand...

9* Wins, right?


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Face The Facts said:
Version 2!
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I agree with a lot of what you posted...and especially the fact that it's becoming tiresome. Every thread devolves into an argument about Fleck. That Maple Grove football thread is probably not too far from that. I can picture it now, "NOT GOING FOR 2 IS FLECK-LIKE MOVE! HE PROBABLY WOULD'VE BEEN LAYING ON THE GROUND FOR THE XP TOO!!"

I think you forgot two key viewpoints in your categories of posters, however:

A. Think Fleck is a windbag who's just talking out his a$$ and probably has little idea how to actually coach a FB team.
B. Think Fleck knows what he's doing, actually believes what he says (and gets kids to believe it), and knows how to coach FB.

I'm in category B since I believe Fleck knows what he's doing and I'm excited he's our coach. That said, there's no definitive proof the people in category A aren't correct...we'll just have ot wait and see.

That said, the guy has been keeping a notebook on his coaching philosophy and leadership style since he was 23 years old. He's achieved success before. This Gophers team is organized and disciplined (Green's stupid slap notwithstanding). They're playing hard, despite some failure this season.

All that said, I'm very disappointed in this season as a fan because I follow the team all year and want them to win -- that's more fun. I thought they'd beat Maryland and Purdue, and I'm betting PJ and his staff thought that as well. I don't agree with every coaching decision they've made, but I didn't agree with every decision previous coaches made as well.
 


Spoofin said:
9* Wins, right?


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No * needed. 9 wins is great, but those 9 wins also got us 4th place out of 7 in our division and was tied for 7th best conference record. If your goal is to be middle of the pack then last year was perfect for you.
 

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