The state of...

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AO54 said:
It's just math, hockeynuts, don't get so upset. Far more people in Minnesota play and watch basketball. It's great that 20k show up for the AA state tourney, but that's a very small part of measuring total interest across the state.
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Far more people in Minnesota do not play and watch basketball, maybe in the cities and suburbs this is the case, but not in the outstate especially on the watching part. You say the State tournament does get high attendance and its a small part of measuring total interest so you want more evidence lets add in the fact that Gopher hockey sells out the majority of their home games, the Wild have sold out almost every home game since their existence before missing some the past couple years, but they will be selling out every game again now, Duluth, St.Cloud, Mankato, and Bemidji St. all have very good attendance for home games, and regular season and playoff high school hockey games before the state tournament are often sold out around the state as well. While the Wolves rarely sell out, Gopher basketball rarely sells out, smaller college games do not sell out very often, and the only high school games that really get huge turnouts are the games when Tyus Jones is playing. Its just a fact basketball fans have to face Minnesota is and always will be the state of hockey, if you're looking for basketball to be top priority there are many other states where it is.
 

Basketball and football are better sports imo, but to call hockey a niche sport is just plain weird. H.S., College, Professional hockey all are very popular here = enough said.
 

Goldy Gopher said:
Far more people in Minnesota do not play and watch basketball, maybe in the cities and suburbs this is the case, but not in the outstate especially on the watching part. You say the State tournament does get high attendance and its a small part of measuring total interest so you want more evidence lets add in the fact that Gopher hockey sells out the majority of their home games, the Wild have sold out almost every home game since their existence before missing some the past couple years, but they will be selling out every game again now, Duluth, St.Cloud, Mankato, and Bemidji St. all have very good attendance for home games, and regular season and playoff high school hockey games before the state tournament are often sold out around the state as well. While the Wolves rarely sell out, Gopher basketball rarely sells out, smaller college games do not sell out very often, and the only high school games that really get huge turnouts are the games when Tyus Jones is playing. Its just a fact basketball fans have to face Minnesota is and always will be the state of hockey, if you're looking for basketball to be top priority there are many other states where it is.
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Have you ever been outstate? Not only does HS basketball get double the average attendance of a hs hockey game, basketball has double the number of teams. Participation numbers aren't even close. again, not putting down hockey, but you don't have to compare yourself to one of the most accessible and popular sports in the world to make yourself feel good.
 


AO54 said:
Have you ever been outstate? Not only does HS basketball get double the average attendance of a hs hockey game, basketball has double the number of teams. Participation numbers aren't even close. again, not putting down hockey, but you don't have to compare yourself to one of the most accessible and popular sports in the world to make yourself feel good.
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Didn't mean outside the state meant the outstate area (outside of the cities/suburbs) of Minnesota, my fault for not clarifying that. I know based on a national perspective basketball is far more accessible and popular in the United States, but not in Minnesota. Hockey however is growing in places like Arizona, California, and other places where you wouldn't expect but its still not close to basketball in those states.
 



Maximus, he said "It's normally..."

So this is an abnormal thread.
 

4four4 said:
Like I said everything is a niche sport but around the world Association Football is by far the biggest sport.
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And by that, I'm assuming you mean what we call soccer, right. Because if we're talking globally, nothing touches soccer.
 




Goldy Gopher said:
Didn't mean outside the state meant the outstate area (outside of the cities/suburbs) of Minnesota, my fault for not clarifying that. I know based on a national perspective basketball is far more accessible and popular in the United States, but not in Minnesota. Hockey however is growing in places like Arizona, California, and other places where you wouldn't expect but its still not close to basketball in those states.
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I understood what you meant. The accessibility advantage basketball has over hockey doesn't diminish much in Minnesota, especially in the outstate area where rinks/teams are few and far between. Shorts, shoes and basketballs are far cheaper than hockey equipment and gyms/hoops at playgrounds will always greatly outnumber ice rinks. There's also the matter of summer when many rural rinks shut down.
 

AO54 said:
I understood what you meant. The accessibility advantage basketball has over hockey doesn't diminish much in Minnesota, especially in the outstate area where rinks/teams are few and far between. Shorts, shoes and basketballs are far cheaper than hockey equipment and gyms/hoops at playgrounds will always greatly outnumber ice rinks. There's also the matter of summer when many rural rinks shut down.
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I grew up and still live in the outstate area and while I understand basketball can be more accessible, it is definitely not more popular. In the northern half of the state you can probably see a rink for sure within an hour of almost every town. Hockey equipment is far more expensive but that doesn't mean it is less popular, you can go from town to town in the outstate from November to March and see arenas full of kids skating. Basketball will always be more convenient to people but it does not make it more popular. Minnesota has the most registered youth hockey players in the United States and from what I have experienced hockey will always be more popular in Minnesota, especially at the high school level where regular season, playoff, and state tournament games result in full arenas.
 


AO54 said:
http://www.mshsl.org/mshsl/news/2010-2011Participation.pdf?ne=11
MSHSL Boy's hockey participants: 36,912 Boy's Basketball: 545,844
Girl's hockey: 9,022 Girl's Basketball: 438,933

For every northern MN town where more boys like to play hockey, there are 10 southern MN towns that don't play hockey at all.
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Those are national numbers. The MN numbers are:

Boys Hockey: 5,640 Boys Basketball: 13,468
Girls Hockey: 3,672 Girls Basketball: 11,144

But either way, it's a tough comparison because there just aren't the opportunities to play hockey some places like there are for basketball.
 



AO54 said:
http://www.mshsl.org/mshsl/news/2010-2011Participation.pdf?ne=11
MSHSL Boy's hockey participants: 36,912 Boy's Basketball: 545,844
Girl's hockey: 9,022 Girl's Basketball: 438,933

For every northern MN town where more boys like to play hockey, there are 10 southern MN towns that don't play hockey at all.
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I would say that 10-1 comparison is a little off but I've lived in Minnesota all my life and I don't think I will ever be able to believe or be convinced that basketball is more popular than hockey in Minnesota and participants are just a small part of the popularity as the big reason for the difference in participation is the difference in cost of equipment and facilities for schools/towns and things like that.
 

Goldy Gopher said:
I would say that 10-1 comparison is a little off but I've lived in Minnesota all my life and I don't think I will ever be able to believe or be convinced that basketball is more popular than hockey in Minnesota and participants are just a small part of the popularity as the big reason for the difference in participation is the difference in cost of equipment and facilities for schools/towns and things like that.
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Whatever the reason, basketball is more popular. Bringing it back to the U, compare the hysteria around the 97' final four run to any of the gopher or bulldog hockey titles. Compare the TV ratings. It isn't close.
 

AO54 said:
Whatever the reason, basketball is more popular. Bringing it back to the U, compare the hysteria around the 97' final four run to any of the gopher or bulldog hockey titles. Compare the TV ratings. It isn't close.
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Since you brought that up. What clouds that argument is people north of Hinckley don't get quite as excited for "Main U" hockey as they do for Bulldog hockey. I lived in Cloquet when the Bulldogs played Bowling Green and everyone in town was nuts. It was way more popular than Gopher basketball was. Not for me personally, but for pretty much everyone else.

So I guess what I'm saying is that college hockey ratings are going to be a lot more segmented in MN than basketball ratings would be. The way many on this board feel toward Wisconsin basketball...that's the attitude a lot of people up north have about Gopher hockey.
 

brucekaupa said:
Since you brought that up. What clouds that argument is people north of Hinckley don't get quite as excited for "Main U" hockey as they do for Bulldog hockey. I lived in Cloquet when the Bulldogs played Bowling Green and everyone in town was nuts. It was way more popular than Gopher basketball was. Not for me personally, but for pretty much everyone else.

So I guess what I'm saying is that college hockey ratings are going to be a lot more segmented in MN than basketball ratings would be. The way many on this board feel toward Wisconsin basketball...that's the attitude a lot of people up north have about Gopher hockey.
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Exception rather than rule. If you combine all the hockey tv viewers in the state versus the ncaa basketball tournament viewers, it's no contest. Basketball gets the bandwagon or casual fan.
 

The Boys HS Hockey Tournament draws more spectators than any other High School Tournament in the US. It tops Texas football, and Indiana basketball. According to KAALtv Albert Lea, the 2011 tournament brought 95,000 fans to Saint Paul. It's hard to deny that HS hockey gets more turnout than other HS sports. If you could find average attendance records to support your claim that basketball has higher turnout, I'd love to see them.

I think we're all familiar with the less-than-ideal turnout for Gopher basketball games, as well as Wolves games. Mariucci is rarely sold out, but is always a very respectable crowd. Wild games had sold out for years and years, and they still turn out a gigantic crowd despite missing the playoffs for 4 straight seasons.

Just give it a rest, AO54. Both sports are very popular. There's no need to get all self-congratulatory with your anecdotal evidence. The case can be made for either sport to seem more popular. I (and many others) are convinced that hockey has been, and probably always will be, more popular than basketball in Minnesota. You (and many others) are convinced otherwise. That's fine, but just quit being so defensive about it.
 

brucekaupa said:
Since you brought that up. What clouds that argument is people north of Hinckley don't get quite as excited for "Main U" hockey as they do for Bulldog hockey. I lived in Cloquet when the Bulldogs played Bowling Green and everyone in town was nuts. It was way more popular than Gopher basketball was. Not for me personally, but for pretty much everyone else.

So I guess what I'm saying is that college hockey ratings are going to be a lot more segmented in MN than basketball ratings would be. The way many on this board feel toward Wisconsin basketball...that's the attitude a lot of people up north have about Gopher hockey.
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Also to expand on that a little bit you will have the same types of things but probably to a lesser extent around the Mankato, St.Cloud, and Bemidji areas and not to mention the Sioux fans in northwest/northern Minnesota. You make a very good point that Gopher basketball really doesn't have any competition around the state and will get even casual viewers from other places, while Gopher hockey has plenty of competition around the state and won't get as much of the casual viewers. Some people are gonna believe basketball is more popular and bigger around the state and they can make a decent argument for it but I will always think hockey is bigger and more popular in the state of hockey and the argument can be made for it too, but I think its best if the 2 sides will just have to agree to disagree.
 

The Supervisor of Referees of Pissing Contests has hereby declared this pissing contest a draw due to the fact that too many people are lined up waiting to piss more, it will never end, and we are out of porta-potties.
 

Goldy Gopher said:
I would say that 10-1 comparison is a little off but I've lived in Minnesota all my life and I don't think I will ever be able to believe or be convinced that basketball is more popular than hockey in Minnesota and participants are just a small part of the popularity as the big reason for the difference in participation is the difference in cost of equipment and facilities for schools/towns and things like that.
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Get Real! Hockey is definitely a niche sport, and certainly popular for the front runners at times here in Minnesota. \A classic big fish in a tiny pond situation.

Hockey is only big here because the Gophers won a bunch of Titles. When the Gophers are not riding high, all these huge hockey fans practically ignore the NCAA Frozen Four. Attendance at the WCHA games at the X are an embarrassment if the Gophers are not playing. This year 10K showed up for a Gopher Game at the X. Wouldn't huge hockey fans die to see the elite teams in their own backyard, Gophers or no Gophers if Hockey is so big here?

The facts suggest not so much.


As far as the Frozen Four, do not hear people talking about BC, BU, Michigan or Maine when the Gophers are not in it. a lot of these fans probably do not even know what happened later, if their beloved Gophers were not in it. I like watching Big Ten teams in NCAA games, I know a lot of these local hockey fans do not watch the NCAA games if there isn't a Gopher presence, not even to see rivals UND or Wisc.

Meanwhile everyone is talking NCAA Basketball brackets regardless of what the Gophers did in Basketball. Heck even when UMD won it, which actually excited me, most of these Gopher die hard fans could not have cared less.

The UMD titile was on par with a St. Paul Saints Northern League title in the 90's for an average Twin Cities Hockey "fan".



Many die hard Gopher Hockey fans do not even care about the FB team. I mentioned the 2005 Football team's win over Michigan to a couple of hockey die hards later that Saturday, and they had not interest and were almost dismissive of anything about that great win.

It is a very odd fan base, very out of step with the mainstream and insanely loyal, until the team doesn't win the WCHA.

This is a Vikings town and always will be. When the the Twins win they are big. If Jerry Kill gets the Gophers going to BCS games it will be huge.

We all know the hysteria Clem Haskins created in 1997 and Hockey cannot get to 25 percent of what that was and will be again if Tubby could put a few NCAA wins together.

I heard that silly State of Hockey song on the Sid show the other day, and I was sort of embarrassed by the provincialism. The Suter and Parisee signings were big though, and there is no doubt those 17,000 suburban/Exurban, white families (2-4 young children who probably all play the sport w/ stay at home MILF, plus hockey obsessed father) will start skipping Applebees and eating at home, and keep the SUV a couple extra years so they can afford to blow $4k to 8K on tickets again that they had given up after the team stopped winning.

Maybe this time they will stop backing up the Kellogg exit for a mile and figure before all 41 plus games that there is more than one exit leading to downtown St. Paul.

Loyal, obsessed, and compact defines the marketplace for hockey.
 


oak_street1981 said:
Get Real! Hockey is definitely a niche sport, and certainly popular for the front runners at times here in Minnesota. \A classic big fish in a tiny pond situation.

Hockey is only big here because the Gophers won a bunch of Titles. When the Gophers are not riding high, all these huge hockey fans practically ignore the NCAA Frozen Four. Attendance at the WCHA games at the X are an embarrassment if the Gophers are not playing. This year 10K showed up for a Gopher Game at the X. Wouldn't huge hockey fans die to see the elite teams in their own backyard, Gophers or no Gophers if Hockey is so big here?

The facts suggest not so much.


As far as the Frozen Four, do not hear people talking about BC, BU, Michigan or Maine when the Gophers are not in it. a lot of these fans probably do not even know what happened later, if their beloved Gophers were not in it. I like watching Big Ten teams in NCAA games, I know a lot of these local hockey fans do not watch the NCAA games if there isn't a Gopher presence, not even to see rivals UND or Wisc.

Meanwhile everyone is talking NCAA Basketball brackets regardless of what the Gophers did in Basketball. Heck even when UMD won it, which actually excited me, most of these Gopher die hard fans could not have cared less.

The UMD titile was on par with a St. Paul Saints Northern League title in the 90's for an average Twin Cities Hockey "fan".



Many die hard Gopher Hockey fans do not even care about the FB team. I mentioned the 2005 Football team's win over Michigan to a couple of hockey die hards later that Saturday, and they had not interest and were almost dismissive of anything about that great win.

It is a very odd fan base, very out of step with the mainstream and insanely loyal, until the team doesn't win the WCHA.

This is a Vikings town and always will be. When the the Twins win they are big. If Jerry Kill gets the Gophers going to BCS games it will be huge.

We all know the hysteria Clem Haskins created in 1997 and Hockey cannot get to 25 percent of what that was and will be again if Tubby could put a few NCAA wins together.

I heard that silly State of Hockey song on the Sid show the other day, and I was sort of embarrassed by the provincialism. The Suter and Parisee signings were big though, and there is no doubt those 17,000 suburban/Exurban, white families (2-4 young children who probably all play the sport w/ stay at home MILF, plus hockey obsessed father) will start skipping Applebees and eating at home, and keep the SUV a couple extra years so they can afford to blow $4k to 8K on tickets again that they had given up after the team stopped winning.

Maybe this time they will stop backing up the Kellogg exit for a mile and figure before all 41 plus games that there is more than one exit leading to downtown St. Paul.

Loyal, obsessed, and compact defines the marketplace for hockey.
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Thats not even true the Gophers weren't in the Final 5 at the X in 2011 and the place was packed because Sioux fans filled the place. The reason there was only 10,000 for regionals was the NCAA made the prices very high and many of the same fans had just spent a lot of money on the Final 5 the week before. Hockeys not only huge because of the Gopher titles its because Minnesota has the most youth players, one of the biggest and most popular State high school tournaments (like Texas football and Indiana basketball) 4 college D1 teams, and a NHL team that sells out the majority of the time and now will continue to be a hard ticket to get. Gopher fans probably didn't care about UMDs title because it is a huge rival for them and so are the other teams around the state, which creates more competition for the fans which other Gopher sports really don't face. I'm not a Gopher hockey fan but I don't think you're giving them enough credit, when they won the title back around 2001 there were riots and fans going crazy in the streets. I agreee the casual fans will draw more to basketball but there are tons of diehard hockey fans around the state from high school to pro and thats the one huge popular group you're forgetting the high school hockey fans. They pack the X and other arenas come playoff time and the state tournament will outdraw some pro teams. There are good points for both sides of the argument but from growing up in Minnesota and experincing the hysteria all my life I will never be convinced this isn't the state of hockey. I do acknowledge that the Vikings will probably always come first though, the NFL is too huge for anything to really overtake it, but I don't get why some fans think it has to be one sport or another though like you said about some of the diehard fans not even acknowledging other sports.
 

oak_street1981 said:
Get Real! Hockey is definitely a niche sport, and certainly popular for the front runners at times here in Minnesota. \A classic big fish in a tiny pond situation.

Hockey is only big here because the Gophers won a bunch of Titles. When the Gophers are not riding high, all these huge hockey fans practically ignore the NCAA Frozen Four. Attendance at the WCHA games at the X are an embarrassment if the Gophers are not playing. This year 10K showed up for a Gopher Game at the X. Wouldn't huge hockey fans die to see the elite teams in their own backyard, Gophers or no Gophers if Hockey is so big here?

The facts suggest not so much.


As far as the Frozen Four, do not hear people talking about BC, BU, Michigan or Maine when the Gophers are not in it. a lot of these fans probably do not even know what happened later, if their beloved Gophers were not in it. I like watching Big Ten teams in NCAA games, I know a lot of these local hockey fans do not watch the NCAA games if there isn't a Gopher presence, not even to see rivals UND or Wisc.

Meanwhile everyone is talking NCAA Basketball brackets regardless of what the Gophers did in Basketball. Heck even when UMD won it, which actually excited me, most of these Gopher die hard fans could not have cared less.

The UMD titile was on par with a St. Paul Saints Northern League title in the 90's for an average Twin Cities Hockey "fan".



Many die hard Gopher Hockey fans do not even care about the FB team. I mentioned the 2005 Football team's win over Michigan to a couple of hockey die hards later that Saturday, and they had not interest and were almost dismissive of anything about that great win.

It is a very odd fan base, very out of step with the mainstream and insanely loyal, until the team doesn't win the WCHA.

This is a Vikings town and always will be. When the the Twins win they are big. If Jerry Kill gets the Gophers going to BCS games it will be huge.

We all know the hysteria Clem Haskins created in 1997 and Hockey cannot get to 25 percent of what that was and will be again if Tubby could put a few NCAA wins together.

I heard that silly State of Hockey song on the Sid show the other day, and I was sort of embarrassed by the provincialism. The Suter and Parisee signings were big though, and there is no doubt those 17,000 suburban/Exurban, white families (2-4 young children who probably all play the sport w/ stay at home MILF, plus hockey obsessed father) will start skipping Applebees and eating at home, and keep the SUV a couple extra years so they can afford to blow $4k to 8K on tickets again that they had given up after the team stopped winning.

Maybe this time they will stop backing up the Kellogg exit for a mile and figure before all 41 plus games that there is more than one exit leading to downtown St. Paul.

Loyal, obsessed, and compact defines the marketplace for hockey.
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I don't disagree with some of the things you're saying but you do know that college hockey is not the only reason it's referred to as "The State of Hockey", right? I would say the popularity of high school hockey is what makes Minnesota different from most other states.
 

Just because hockey is more popular in minnesota than other states does not make it more a non-niche sport.
 

My initial point was not to slam hockey's popularity but to question the idea that it is the sport of Minnesota and all other sports
are beneath it. I like all sports especially Gopher hoops and football but I can follow and enjoy other sports too. The phrase that MN is the State of Hockey assumes, too much in my opnion, the hockey rules everbody's atetntion all the time.
 


book said:
My initial point was not to slam hockey's popularity but to question the idea that it is the sport of Minnesota and all other sports
are beneath it. I like all sports especially Gopher hoops and football but I can follow and enjoy other sports too. The phrase that MN is the State of Hockey assumes, too much in my opnion, the hockey rules everbody's atetntion all the time.
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When people talk about Minnesota one of the 1st things associated with it is hockey, like Texas football and Indiana basketball, it can be questioned whether it should be or not but that seems to be the case. I think its hard to ever really decide which sport is most popular in a state because there are varying levels of interest based on the popularity of teams. I do agree with you I can enjoy and follow almost every sport however there are a few exceptions. I don't really take the phrase state of hockey that way, but I can see why some might think that and that would definitely be a bad assumption as hockey does not have everybodys attention all the time even in Minnesota.
 

Due to the fact that all referees have been removed from the pissing contest, it is now classified as a pissing free-for-all. May the best pisser win.
 

Some schools are football schools like Alabama and Texas, some are basketball schools, UK, Indiand, Duke, but ask students at other campuses around the country and BigTen, they'll say Minnesota is a hockey school. I played hockey and I know more people play basketball, than hockey, the only basketball I watch is gopher basketball, they went to the final four when I was 9 and I've been hooked ever since, but you also have to remember there's about 100 junior gold teams around the state as well, as some schools are just so big they cut about 100 kids a year, while the city of minneapolis is down to one team when there use to be 11. To me the state of hockey means hockey is more popular here than it is anywhere else and I don't get why basketball people take that so personally, I don't think anyone can say with a straight face that hockey is more popular in another state in this country. Again I acknowledge that more people play basketball here, but I don't see why hardcore hardwood fans are so defensive about this.
 

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