The Secret of Bo Ryan's Success

Moses87

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Watching Michigan fire up contested brick after brick and it finally hit me. The reason Bo Ryan has never finished outside the top 4.

His defensive teachings have adapted with the times and he has his players over-play the 3 point arc, forcing finesse, jump shooting teams like Michigan to take the ball inside the arc and out of their comfort zone. Bo says, beat us with 2's, or die firing up 3's. Force a team like Michigan beat you with twos and force them to use their interior players. They really don't like it inside the arc...More brilliant stuff today from Grinch. I hate him but respect him more than any coach in basketball.
 

What do you think he could do with our roster? Would he kick them all off of the court and start over or would he take guys like Williams and Dre and make basketball players out of them?
 

I figured it was going to be that he gets advice from moses.
 

What do you think he could do with our roster? Would he kick them all off of the court and start over or would he take guys like Williams and Dre and make basketball players out of them?

I have no doubt that the Gophers would have won the Big Ten this year and been top 6 or better in each of the past 6 seasons.

Rodney would have been forced to get a better handle and more consistent stroke or Bo wouldn't have started him. In my opinion, Rodney doesn't have the natural shooting touch needed to be great or make the NBA. But I do think he would have been a lot better player and had better character. Bo teaches grit and character above all.

When it comes to x's and o's, perhaps most importantly, his players simply don't put themselves in bad places where turnovers are born from. He would have got them all to value the ball more. Better fundamentals and smarter.
 

In the small picture it's about execution.

In the big picture it's about toughness and tenacity. They remind me of my friend Stroker, who plays Risk with tenacity. One time I had him beat and backed into some corner of the world, but he kept fighting with every last army, and at one point I was starting to worry that he would actually pull off a miraculous resurrection. I was thinking, would you just die already? There are a lot of people who would not have played that way and foregone playing it out. He finally did lose, but it's true that you can't win unless you go all out trying. Stroker wins way more than his share.
 


Wisconsin scored 70 points. Like the loss against Penn State, they played horrible defense. If you play reasonable defense against Becky they score in the mid 50's. Bo runs a motion offense. Tubby
Runs mostly a flex offense. Rodney wouldn't be any more effective with Bo than Tubby. Wisconsin relies on the " three " with at least 4 of the starters shooting from the Arc ( Evans the exception )
The only thing Bo would've brought to Rodney is discipline, and maybe improved ball handling. A motion offense is more condusive in negating turnovers and it shows in the way Wisconsin protects the basketball. Throw in a good defense and that is why Wisconsin wins so many nip and tuck games. Take away Minnesota's 19 turnovers yesterday and we would've played Indiana.
 

I have no doubt that the Gophers would have won the Big Ten this year and been top 6 or better in each of the past 6 seasons.

Rodney would have been forced to get a better handle and more consistent stroke or Bo wouldn't have started him. In my opinion, Rodney doesn't have the natural shooting touch needed to be great or make the NBA. But I do think he would have been a lot better player and had better character. Bo teaches grit and character above all.

When it comes to x's and o's, perhaps most importantly, his players simply don't put themselves in bad places where turnovers are born from. He would have got them all to value the ball more. Better fundamentals and smarter.

Rodney could have been a better version of Evans at Wisconsin. Evans couldn't shoot a lick earlier in his career and now he is finding ways to score on mid range and post up shots.
I seriously doubt if Bo would have recruited most of these guys however. They are good enough, for sure, but I don't think they fit his system. The other part of what the Grinch does is recruit guys that can succeed in his system. Fundamentals, toughness and shooting.
 

UGH. Just saw Badgers won. Bo is a great coach, because his teams improve during course of the season. He teaches and gets results unlike TeleTubby. Most folks on
this board, myself included, thought they were going to totally suck this year with their best player out and the early season struggles.
 

Wisconsin scored 70 points. Like the loss against Penn State, they played horrible defense. If you play reasonable defense against Becky they score in the mid 50's. Bo runs a motion offense. Tubby
Runs mostly a flex offense. Rodney wouldn't be any more effective with Bo than Tubby. Wisconsin relies on the " three " with at least 4 of the starters shooting from the Arc ( Evans the exception )
The only thing Bo would've brought to Rodney is discipline, and maybe improved ball handling. A motion offense is more condusive in negating turnovers and it shows in the way Wisconsin protects the basketball. Throw in a good defense and that is why Wisconsin wins so many nip and tuck games. Take away Minnesota's 19 turnovers yesterday and we would've played Indiana.

Those 2 things would have enabled RW to come near his potential in college.
 



Rodney could have been a better version of Evans at Wisconsin. Evans couldn't shoot a lick earlier in his career and now he is finding ways to score on mid range and post up shots.
I seriously doubt if Bo would have recruited most of these guys however. They are good enough, for sure, but I don't think they fit his system. The other part of what the Grinch does is recruit guys that can succeed in his system. Fundamentals, toughness and shooting.

Soooo sorely lacking on Tubby teams.......
 

Watching Michigan fire up contested brick after brick and it finally hit me. The reason Bo Ryan has never finished outside the top 4.

His defensive teachings have adapted with the times and he has his players over-play the 3 point arc, forcing finesse, jump shooting teams like Michigan to take the ball inside the arc and out of their comfort zone. Bo says, beat us with 2's, or die firing up 3's. Force a team like Michigan beat you with twos and force them to use their interior players. They really don't like it inside the arc...More brilliant stuff today from Grinch. I hate him but respect him more than any coach in basketball.

That's what he does defensively, but do you notice what he does offensively. He always has a shooting guard and usually has a post player who can shoot the three. This year he has Brust to shoot it from the outside and Berggron (sp) can also step out and hit a three. He doesn't worry about being the most athletic team, just the most fundamentally sound with the ability to put it in the basket.
 

One thing about Ryan is that he has a very short leash, especially with freshmen. If you make a mistake, he will take you out of the game as fast as possible even if you've just gone in. Even Dekker who is by far his highest rated recruit ever, gets the same treatment. If you watch a game with someone familiar with Bo, they will often predict who is coming out and why. Often it's rather subtle. With Dekker his defense needed work, especially his help defense. And of course this is pretty frustrating to Badger fans who think that Dekker is the best chance for UW when they go into those extended scoring droughts. Ryan is also very loyal to seniors and will give them a long leash even when they don't deserve it (see Ryan Evans). I don't watch enough Tubby ball to see if he does that but I really doubt it. This is why UW generally has few turnovers.
 

One thing about Ryan is that he has a very short leash, especially with freshmen. If you make a mistake, he will take you out of the game as fast as possible even if you've just gone in. Even Dekker who is by far his highest rated recruit ever, gets the same treatment. If you watch a game with someone familiar with Bo, they will often predict who is coming out and why. Often it's rather subtle. With Dekker his defense needed work, especially his help defense. And of course this is pretty frustrating to Badger fans who think that Dekker is the best chance for UW when they go into those extended scoring droughts. Ryan is also very loyal to seniors and will give them a long leash even when they don't deserve it (see Ryan Evans). I don't watch enough Tubby ball to see if he does that but I really doubt it. This is why UW generally has few turnovers.

The Gophers turnovers are mostly a result of Tubby's inability to teach and correct mistakes. I gather from watching his teams for 6 years now that he doesn't do much film study or classroom type work with players, breaking down film and explaining what leads to turnovers. For example, dribbling into traffic, or big players taking dribbles in the crowded paint where little guys are just waiting to steal the ball. Gopher bigs been have taking dribbles in the paint for 6 years and it never stops. Nobody ever just keeps the ball over their head and goes back up, ala Kevin McHale or Tim Duncan...Also players don't grab hold of the ball with any sense of urgency...They are lax and have and seemingly always surprised when a stray hand comes in from behind and pokes the ball away. I've seen mediocre HS coaches break down video tape and explain those basics. The Gophers never fix the problems. I assume its because Tubby just doesn't review tapes and fix problems. I'm also willing to bet that Bo Ryan is the kind of coach who goes around players while they are stretching and just talks about situations...Kinda like I saw Belichek do his NFL Network (football life) documentary. I think those little discussions where you talk about situations are invaluable. Case in point, the Nebraska game last week when the Gophers trailed by 3 points late and got the ball back with 47 seconds on the game clock. A well prepared, smart PG who has been schooled and talked to about end of game situations would know that you don't need a three in those situations, but what is important is to get something quick. You don't want to run down the play clock all the way down to 12 and heave a bad 3. That just doesn't leave enough time to foul, get the ball back and get the game into OT. In that situation, Andre eventually got the ball into the front court and not knowing what to do, he looked back toward Tubby where Tubby called a TO. 35 seconds left. still 23 on the play clock...You still need to look for something quick...The opposing Defense will be expecting a 3 so, they will be cheating out and guarding the arc...that makes them vulnerable to back door cuts and easy drives to the basket. What do the ill-prepared Gophers do? They probe the perimeter for 23 more seconds, not finding any space and eventually Dre heaves up a desperation 3. It was clear to me during that sequence that none of the players had been instructed to get a quick 2 if possible OR look for the backdoor cut or drive to the basket. Instead, it appeared the only thought any of them had was firing up a 3 no matter what. This is the kinda stuff that drives me mad. We have coach making 2 mil a season and he doesn't have a clue about smart strategy and his players have taken on his Basketball IQ, which is probably in the 50's, whereas Wisconsin players and Bo are Alex Trebeks of the hardwood.
 



Rodney could have been a better version of Evans at Wisconsin. Evans couldn't shoot a lick earlier in his career and now he is finding ways to score on mid range and post up shots.
I seriously doubt if Bo would have recruited most of these guys however. They are good enough, for sure, but I don't think they fit his system. The other part of what the Grinch does is recruit guys that can succeed in his system. Fundamentals, toughness and shooting.

I agree with all of this. I think one of the things that hasn't been said (but you could argue that it is inferred in bga1's post) is that Ryan finds a way for his team to play solid defense with mostly mediocre (at best) athletes. Bo recruits players that fit his system and he knows that his system needs to be able to mask the flaws that are common to his type of players.
 

The Gophers turnovers are mostly a result of Tubby's inability to teach and correct mistakes. I gather from watching his teams for 6 years now that he doesn't do much film study or classroom type work with players, breaking down film and explaining what leads to turnovers. For example, dribbling into traffic, or big players taking dribbles in the crowded paint where little guys are just waiting to steal the ball. Gopher bigs been have taking dribbles in the paint for 6 years and it never stops. Nobody ever just keeps the ball over their head and goes back up, ala Kevin McHale or Tim Duncan...Also players don't grab hold of the ball with any sense of urgency...They are lax and have and seemingly always surprised when a stray hand comes in from behind and pokes the ball away. I've seen mediocre HS coaches break down video tape and explain those basics. The Gophers never fix the problems. I assume its because Tubby just doesn't review tapes and fix problems. I'm also willing to bet that Bo Ryan is the kind of coach who goes around players while they are stretching and just talks about situations...Kinda like I saw Belichek do his NFL Network (football life) documentary. I think those little discussions where you talk about situations are invaluable. Case in point, the Nebraska game last week when the Gophers trailed by 3 points late and got the ball back with 47 seconds on the game clock. A well prepared, smart PG who has been schooled and talked to about end of game situations would know that you don't need a three in those situations, but what is important is to get something quick. You don't want to run down the play clock all the way down to 12 and heave a bad 3. That just doesn't leave enough time to foul, get the ball back and get the game into OT. In that situation, Andre eventually got the ball into the front court and not knowing what to do, he looked back toward Tubby where Tubby called a TO. 35 seconds left. still 23 on the play clock...You still need to look for something quick...The opposing Defense will be expecting a 3 so, they will be cheating out and guarding the arc...that makes them vulnerable to back door cuts and easy drives to the basket. What do the ill-prepared Gophers do? They probe the perimeter for 23 more seconds, not finding any space and eventually Dre heaves up a desperation 3. It was clear to me during that sequence that none of the players had been instructed to get a quick 2 if possible OR look for the backdoor cut or drive to the basket. Instead, it appeared the only thought any of them had was firing up a 3 no matter what. This is the kinda stuff that drives me mad. We have coach making 2 mil a season and he doesn't have a clue about smart strategy and his players have taken on his Basketball IQ, which is probably in the 50's, whereas Wisconsin players and Bo are Alex Trebeks of the hardwood.

Moses

Even the Commandments weren't all put in one paragraph.
 

It just reflects the sorry state of college basketball. AAU teaching kids to play the wrong way and all real talent leaving for the NBA before they mature into great college players has made Wisconsin's success possible.
 

From watching nearly every game of Bo Ryan's tenure at the UW:

1) It is easier to understand Badger success if you look at your definition of "athletic". Quickness and leaping ability tend to be the start and finish of this definition for many. How about strength? Balance? Hand eye coordination? Badger players get underrated.

2) Roster stability is key. Few transfers. Few legal or academic issues (nobody has zero, but Bo has taken fewer and fewer risks. Hell we beat out Yale and Brown for a kid from Exeter in the 2013 class). Many redshirts. Freshmen often wait their turn and don't play till they take care of the ball and know the defensive rules.

3) Defense is about playing percentages. A great day for the Badgers on D means few free throws. Few attempts from 3 and a poor %. Lots of long 2's and few offensive rebounds given up. No fast breaks allowed. Hard to win on a steady diet of contested 17 footers. The Badgers are pretty physical from the waist down. You can call them fouls, but the refs don't. The Badgers don't play as "handsy" as the Chris Kramers and Aaron Crafts of the world. Fewer steals but fewer fouls.

4) The offense works when the ball gets into the post. The Badgers have been poor at this all year. Tiny guards and no Wilkinson or Tucker type. Should improve drastically next year with big guards (and real point guards) and weight room time for Dekker. Haven't really run the swing much at all this year.

5) Bo plays the percentages on offense. Can't score if you don't get shots. The Badgers can shoot a crappy percentage and stay in games when they don't turn it over. Lots of games stay close when our opponent shoots a better percentage but loses a bunch of possessions to turnovers and we always get shots. Works even better when the Badgers go to the line, but we haven't been good at that for a while.

6) I have never thought the "system" was anything magic. Strict principles to give the best chance to succeed. Tends to lead to consistency. Haven't gone past sweet 16 much due to a little bad luck (Tucker hurt for Harris' last year,Butch injury, Hughes hurt vs. Davidson, Leuer having literally his worst game since junior high v. Butler) and a LOT of not having as much true NBA talent as Final 4 teams generally do.

7) Teams that are consistently good to great usually are historic powers, located in a high talent state, or dirty. Their aren't many teams that aren't one of those (and have real in-state recruiting competition) who have success like Bo has had at Wisconsin. Wisconsin doesn't put out hs talent like Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, or Illinois. In addition, most coaches who had Bo's initial success would have bailed for a higher profile job (think Self leaving Illinois), but due to age, a style that could charitably be called unglamorous, and deep roots in the state, Bo appears to be a Badger lifer.
 

Thanks for the post Newman. I agree that I don't think Bo Ryan recruits to any particular "system." He just wants to get guys who very clearly are willing to work hard, improve and play defense. It seems pretty simple that way. Probably not a lot of high school kids are turned on by that sales pitch, so he takes the ones he can get.
 

3) Defense is about playing percentages. A great day for the Badgers on D means few free throws. Few attempts from 3 and a poor %. Lots of long 2's and few offensive rebounds given up. No fast breaks allowed. Hard to win on a steady diet of contested 17 footers. The Badgers are pretty physical from the waist down. You can call them fouls, but the refs don't. The Badgers don't play as "handsy" as the Chris Kramers and Aaron Crafts of the world. Fewer steals but fewer fouls.

This.

The Badgers have enough size and strength at forward that they can defend the post decently, and they tend to shut down the perimeter better than most teams. As the poster states, if you want to frustrate an opponent and reduce their efficiency, make them make long 2's all game. That's the least efficient offensive basketball there is.

And the bigger and simpler picture: Just get between the ball and the basket and forget trying to block every shot.
 

I would imagine that one reason Bo's guys improve is that they work tirelessly in the offseason on their deficiencies (shooting, ball handling, strength, etc.) I'm hoping that the Gopher players would work endlessly on their outside shooting, FTs, post moves and maybe worry less about their next highlight reel whirlybird dunk. Excelling in fundamentals is how Wisconsin wins and where consistently we fall apart.

And don't turn this into a practice facility discussion. You tell me they can't find some time to go to any gym, find a basket and shoot hundreds of free throws a day?
 

I would imagine that one reason Bo's guys improve is that they work tirelessly in the offseason on their deficiencies (shooting, ball handling, strength, etc.) I'm hoping that the Gopher players would work endlessly on their outside shooting, FTs, post moves and maybe worry less about their next highlight reel whirlybird dunk. Excelling in fundamentals is how Wisconsin wins and where consistently we fall apart.

And don't turn this into a practice facility discussion. You tell me they can't find some time to go to any gym, find a basket and shoot hundreds of free throws a day?

Have you not read this board? The main reason MN struggles is no practice facility. Can't practice, can't get any good players, no support. Don't worry though, once the Admin begins to support the program and build a practice facility, plan on top 25 recruiting classes and B10 championships, there is a GREAT history and TONS of upside with the MN Gopher program!
 

Bo's ability to recruit and develop skilled bigs is another reason for their success. From Wilkinson, to Butch, to Nankivil, to Leuer, to Berggren and soon to be Kaminsky....they get skilled big players and make it uncomfortable for the opposition. When you watch a player like Cody Zeller, I'd love to see what Bo could have done for his game.
 

Bo's ability to recruit and develop skilled bigs is another reason for their success. From Wilkinson, to Butch, to Nankivil, to Leuer, to Berggren and soon to be Kaminsky....they get skilled big players and make it uncomfortable for the opposition. When you watch a player like Cody Zeller, I'd love to see what Bo could have done for his game.

Part of the reason they develop as well is they have 4-5 years there. Guys like Cal lose his bigs after one year and Indiana will lose Zeller after 2. OSU lost Sullinger after 2, likely 1 if not for the lockout. For whatever reason, Badgers don't leave early.

Bo isn't perfect either. Steimsma was pretty pedestrian under Ryan.
 

Part of the reason they develop as well is they have 4-5 years there. Guys like Cal lose his bigs after one year and Indiana will lose Zeller after 2. OSU lost Sullinger after 2, likely 1 if not for the lockout. For whatever reason, Badgers don't leave early.

Bo isn't perfect either. Steimsma was pretty pedestrian under Ryan.

Clearly on Stiemsma who spent four years kicking it in minor league basketball. Not sure why Ryan would get discredited because of a rare outlier.
 

I would imagine that one reason Bo's guys improve is that they work tirelessly in the offseason on their deficiencies (shooting, ball handling, strength, etc.) I'm hoping that the Gopher players would work endlessly on their outside shooting, FTs, post moves and maybe worry less about their next highlight reel whirlybird dunk. Excelling in fundamentals is how Wisconsin wins and where consistently we fall apart.

And don't turn this into a practice facility discussion. You tell me they can't find some time to go to any gym, find a basket and shoot hundreds of free throws a day?
Most players work pretty hard on their games year around. But Bo teaches them how to play without the ball.There not great shooters as you would suggest. But they are mentally strong and to a player capable of making clutch plays. If you watched Evans shoot free throws or look at fifteen point halfs they do not succeed because they practice shooting more than other teams.
 

Have you not read this board? The main reason MN struggles is no practice facility. Can't practice, can't get any good players, no support. Don't worry though, once the Admin begins to support the program and build a practice facility, plan on top 25 recruiting classes and B10 championships, there is a GREAT history and TONS of upside with the MN Gopher program!

No one said it was the main reason, but my only point is and has been this:

Recruiting: two employers want you to work for them. Both offer equal salary and hour. One has a beautiful office building with a workout room, mahogany tables and everyone gets an office. The other is in a rundown strip mall with cramped cubes. Which do you choose to work for? Same if you were comparing basketball programs and their facilities.

Practicing: you have a 40 hour per week job and an infant child to take care of. Your wife also has a 40 hour per week job. Even if you take out the child, how much time do you have to run around from rec center to rec center or lifetime to lifetime to find an open hoop? What if it is late at night? Do you work out 3 hours every day between work and family? Or do you find you are short on time to get ready, drive to the gym, park, get changed, then hope the gym isn't too busy?

Argue the merits all you want, but a full course load is estimated to take 40 hours per week ( a full time job) many players have kids and a family to take care of. Many have odd schedules with class times, team practices, games, etc. even in the off season with summer classes. "Just finding an empty hoop" isn't always easy at midnight. Williams is closed. Most lifetime's have closed their courts, etc.

The only reason? Not at all. But yes, a practice facility does play a role in recruiting and player development.
 

Clearly on Stiemsma who spent four years kicking it in minor league basketball. Not sure why Ryan would get discredited because of a rare outlier.

Not discrediting. Just saying he isn't perfect or running at a 100% success rate. Do you disagree? Is Bo Ryan the greatest coach in all of basketball history?
 

newman21 Reply

Nice succinct synopis. Pretty much nailed Bo's relentless determination to play percentages at both ends.
 

I just had a funny thought...Oto Osienicks with 4 years of coaching from Bo Ryan would become what kind of player?

I'm thinking 12ppg-7rpg and a very dangerous player.
 

Stiemsma was a guy who would have been more productive if he had
a) gone to a school that played zone or
b) redshirted
Bo demands bigs who can switch and guard in space. In the long run this probably helped Stiemsma as a player, but he did tend to draw a ton of fouls. He also had his 4 years mirror Butch. If he had done a 5th year, he would have been a 30 minute a game player and that team really could have used him. It was a strange 4 years for Stiemsma.

I do think midsized guys (6-5 to 6-9) tend to do better for Bo. He's had a run of busts (Gavinski, Markolf, Anderson) and I am very happy to see 6-8 guys like Hayes, Brown, and Happ coming in.
 




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