The NCAA Celebration Penalty in practice....

[Bob_Loblaw]

There should have been about 10 flags on that play!

 

[zambam]

Taunting would be if he had turned around looked at the guy chasing him and made a gesture saying "You can't catch me!" This was most certainly not taunting. Fist pumps are about as far from taunting you can get, unless you are doing an exaggerated fist pump mocking someone of course.

 

[Stan The Caddy]

This play, by rule, should not stand. Raising the ball is an attempt to draw attention to yourself. As is, apparently, a fist pump or other celebratory antics like the guys behind the play.

It's a terrible, terrible rule. It's one thing to try to prevent DeSean Jackson-like celebrations. It's a completely different thing to punish emotion and enthusiasm like that displayed by the QB from the story or by the Michigan State players.

Right, but the NCAA rule which was also adopted by the Mass. HS Assoc. did not come into being until this year so the MSU play is a moot point.

 

[Formo]

Rose-

Sorry to say it, but you are way off your rocker on this one. No chance, no how, no way that was taunting. That was a kid running for the go ahead TD in the 4th quarter of a state championship game and being excited about it.

No different than the baseball example earlier in this thread. How about a recent Basketball equivalent...when Rodney Williams threw down that 360 against USC was that necessary? Was it taunting?

The baseball/basketball analogies don't count. That's the nature of those sports (the examples given). In football, there really is no place for celebratory actions during the field of play. After the whistle? Sure.

Many of these rules need to be re-written to be more specific and less subjective. I personally wouldn't have called that as a penalty, but at the same time, I can't really be up in arms about this.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Right, but the NCAA rule which was also adopted by the Mass. HS Assoc. did not come into being until this year so the MSU play is a moot point.

It's a moot point in the fact that the rule didn't exist at the time, but do you think that if that play happened last weekend that it should be nullified?

 

[Stan The Caddy]

The baseball/basketball analogies don't count. That's the nature of those sports

Thanks. I forgot that emotion is not allowed in football.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

The baseball/basketball analogies don't count. That's the nature of those sports (the examples given). In football, there really is no place for celebratory actions during the field of play. After the whistle? Sure.

Many of these rules need to be re-written to be more specific and less subjective. I personally wouldn't have called that as a penalty, but at the same time, I can't really be up in arms about this.

Why are the baseball and basketball examples different? What is it about football that makes it so much different where raising your arms while play is in progress is enough to take points of the board where it isn't in basketball?

 

[Stan The Caddy]

It's a moot point in the fact that the rule didn't exist at the time, but do you think that if that play happened last weekend that it should be nullified?

Do I think it should be nullified? Heck no. Do I think it would be nullified? No, not given that it was a game winning play in OT.

 

[MaxyJR1]

I would never call that foul. Taunting has to be directed at someone. The LSU punter taunted earlier this year. Officials don't like having this call on their shoulders, but the coaches at the NCAA level wanted it.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

The fact is that there are countless plays where someone shows some emotion a while a play is techincally still happening. You see it on every missed FG attempt, watch the players, they are surely waving their hands in excitement as they can tell the kick is off target. Or kickers when they know it's going in. I remember Wettstein at the end of the half, pumping his fist when the ball was in the air (I only remember because from my angle it's easier to tell if it's good by the kicker's reaction). If you look at Gray's TD runs against Illinois, the lineman behind the play had their hands up.

 

[SonOfTheVarsity]

Right, but the NCAA rule which was also adopted by the Mass. HS Assoc. did not come into being until this year so the MSU play is a moot point.

Fair enough. My point was that, under the new rule, that play should, by rule, be penalized. I'm criticizing the principle of the rule by pointing out a situation in which its application would have been proper by rule but indefensible in practice. I can't imagine anybody saying that it would be the right call to penalize that play if it had happened this year, but, by the new rule, MSU's celebration would have illegal. It's an awful rule that's so over-broad that it's application is almost inherently arbitrary.

 

[Stan The Caddy]

Fair enough. My point was that, under the new rule, that play should, by rule, be penalized. I'm criticizing the principle of the rule by pointing out a situation in which its application would have been proper by rule but indefensible in practice. I can't imagine anybody saying that it would be the right call to penalize that play if it had happened this year, but, by the new rule, MSU's celebration would have illegal. It's an awful rule that's so over-broad that it's application is almost inherently arbitrary.

Then we agree 100%. Nice work finding a tremendous example of how stupid the rule is. Could you imagine if they flagged MSU on that play?

 

[Formo]

Why are the baseball and basketball examples different? What is it about football that makes it so much different where raising your arms while play is in progress is enough to take points of the board where it isn't in basketball?

Have you played any of those sports? The running around the bases after crushing a HR isn't stoppable. You can't stop that ball from going out of the park. It's basically over. A 360 dunk or a windmill slam or a layup is simply a basketball move to score 2 points out of 60. It's a dunk that's been done before and not ground breaking.

Football is kinda about controlled emotion, especially with the violent nature of the sport. And lets not forget that football admin on all levels have a much higher standard for their players than baseball/basketball. It's not called the ultimate team sport for nothing you know.

 

[Formo]

I can't stand the wording "any attempt to draw attention to yourself." Look at all these Michigan St. players, all drawing attention to themselves and stuff:


How egregious! #83 clearly extends the ball in celebration while still on the field of play. And how about #77 and #4 behind the play. They certainly drew my attention with their arm raising antics! And during the course of play, no less! And how about the holder, after making the biggest play of his life, celebrating like Chuck Lidell after a knockout.

This play, by rule, should not stand. Raising the ball is an attempt to draw attention to yourself. As is, apparently, a fist pump or other celebratory antics like the guys behind the play.

It's a terrible, terrible rule. It's one thing to try to prevent DeSean Jackson-like celebrations. It's a completely different thing to punish emotion and enthusiasm like that displayed by the QB from the story or by the Michigan State players.

It's a subjective rule, no doubt. And a poor one. But after watching that replay about 5 times, #83 had the ball extended at the 3 yard line, and it wasn't until after he extended his arm when, as you say, #77 and #4 raised their arms.. Which probably means it wasn't until after the ball crossed the goal line when they did as such. Now after re-watching the HS footage.. The QB raised his arm for only a few steps max, but was at the 20 yard line with 3 defenders within only a few yards of him. So, to be fair, the two comparisons aren't the best. Gray area for sure, but like some have said here those types of calls are at the zebras digression.

 

[GophersInIowa]

Have you played any of those sports? The running around the bases after crushing a HR isn't stoppable. You can't stop that ball from going out of the park. It's basically over. A 360 dunk or a windmill slam or a layup is simply a basketball move to score 2 points out of 60. It's a dunk that's been done before and not ground breaking.

Football is kinda about controlled emotion, especially with the violent nature of the sport. And lets not forget that football admin on all levels have a much higher standard for their players than baseball/basketball. It's not called the ultimate team sport for nothing you know.

Either way, doing a 360 dunk isn't necessary to score 2 points so I don't see it any different than what this kid did.

 

[SonOfTheVarsity]

It's a subjective rule, no doubt. And a poor one. But after watching that replay about 5 times, #83 had the ball extended at the 3 yard line, and it wasn't until after he extended his arm when, as you say, #77 and #4 raised their arms.. Which probably means it wasn't until after the ball crossed the goal line when they did as such. Now after re-watching the HS footage.. The QB raised his arm for only a few steps max, but was at the 20 yard line with 3 defenders within only a few yards of him. So, to be fair, the two comparisons aren't the best. Gray area for sure, but like some have said here those types of calls are at the zebras digression.

Every call is at the referee's discretion.

"Any attempt" to draw attention leaves no gray area in the wording of the rule. "Any attempt" isn't all that unclear. The only gray area is in the arbitrary enforcement of the rule. The rule effectively paints any act of celebration as illegal; in practice, it allows officials to arbitrarily decide which celebrations they want to (or don't want to) punish.

I agree that my comparison may not be the best. But the rule doesn't see a difference between raising the ball at the 3 or fist-pumping briefly at the 20, and that's more my point. Both acts full under the massive umbrella of "any attempt" to draw attention. Like I said, the rule is so incredibly broad that it cannot be enforced consistently or fairly.

That, and the rule is just plain stupid. Officials are there to ensure fair game play, not to police celebratory actions that have no bearing on the outcome of a play.

 

[Markous15]

Either way, doing a 360 dunk isn't necessary to score 2 points so I don't see it any different than what this kid did.

Perfect example. Doing a 360 is definitely showboating or at the very least drawing extra attention to yourself. Yet it is perfectly accepted in basketball but raising your arm in football is illegal. Seems pretty odd to me.

 

[Formo]

Perfect example. Doing a 360 is definitely showboating or at the very least drawing extra attention to yourself. Yet it is perfectly accepted in basketball but raising your arm in football is illegal. Seems pretty odd to me.

Because they are different sports with different cultures. But to be fair, raising one's arm in football ISN'T illegal.

 

[Formo]

Every call is at the referee's discretion.

"Any attempt" to draw attention leaves no gray area in the wording of the rule. "Any attempt" isn't all that unclear. The only gray area is in the arbitrary enforcement of the rule. The rule effectively paints any act of celebration as illegal; in practice, it allows officials to arbitrarily decide which celebrations they want to (or don't want to) punish.

I agree that my comparison may not be the best. But the rule doesn't see a difference between raising the ball at the 3 or fist-pumping briefly at the 20, and that's more my point. Both acts full under the massive umbrella of "any attempt" to draw attention. Like I said, the rule is so incredibly broad that it cannot be enforced consistently or fairly.

That, and the rule is just plain stupid. Officials are there to ensure fair game play, not to police celebratory actions that have no bearing on the outcome of a play.

Oh, I'm not arguing your point on the rule. It absolutely needs some rehashing at best. I'm just saying as it stands, I don't hate the call.

 

[Stan The Caddy]

Formo-

Can you please stop with the "different sports, different cultures" argument? It is boarderline embarrassing. Emotion is involved in all sports, that is not a "culture" thing. It seems to me that raising one's arm in football may indeed be illegal based on the interpretation and application of this asinine rule.

 

[Formo]

Formo-

Can you please stop with the "different sports, different cultures" argument?

Because... They are the same sports?! WTF are you trying to say here Stanley?

It is boarderline embarrassing.

For whom?

Emotion is involved in all sports, that is not a "culture" thing.

Who said anything about emotion not being involved in all sports? Clearly this is a 'crime' of passion and considering the brass at ALL levels of the sport (football) are trying to eliminate the premature/excessive celebratory actions that we've started to grown accustomed to leads one to believe that is certainly IS a "culture" thing.

It seems to me that raising one's arm in football may indeed be illegal based on the interpretation and application of this asinine rule.

It's not the raising of the arm that is the issue. It's the celebration (no matter how it displayed) prior to the score that is the issue at hand.

 

[Stan The Caddy]

Good Gracious...you went all Dpodoll on me with your response. Nice work.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this matter. Which is fine. I just really am having a difficult time comprehending the "different sports, different cultures" argument. It is odd to me and nonsensical.

Also, clearly raising the arm WAS the issue. All things equal, if no raise of the arm, there would be no penalty.

 

[50PoundHead]

I didn't like Rodney's 360, but I guess that's the way they roll these days.

As for the baseball example, the thing in that sport is that the pitcher can (or could when I was growing up) put one in your ear when you break decorum.

 

[Formo]

Good Gracious...you went all Dpodoll on me with your response. Nice work.

Ha, I did. Didn't take long before someone referenced Dpo.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this matter. Which is fine. I just really am having a difficult time comprehending the "different sports, different cultures" argument. It is odd to me and nonsensical.

Also, clearly raising the arm WAS the issue. All things equal, if no raise of the arm, there would be no penalty.

Depends on how he raised his arm, really (and of course, it depends on who the referee that threw the flag is as well). If he raised his arm because he started losing his balance or some other non-celebratory manner, certainly there wouldn't be a flag.