The Flex Defense...

Donate To GopherHole
Cobra

Cobra

former west banker
Joined
Dec 3, 2010
Messages
1,113
Reaction score
358
Points
83
This is a really interesting article about an unusual defensive scheme.
The results are obviously positive. The downside is it’s complexity.
If I was a P4 DC, I’d do a deep dive and get on it early.

www.espn.com

'I don't know how you'd stop it': How a D-II coach is reimagining defensive plays

The triple option, but for defense? Kevin May has designed a defensive scheme so player friendly that anyone could have success doing it.
www.espn.com www.espn.com
 

Cobra said:
This is a really interesting article about an unusual defensive scheme.
The results are obviously positive. The downside is it’s complexity.
If I was a P4 DC, I’d do a deep dive and get on it early.

www.espn.com

'I don't know how you'd stop it': How a D-II coach is reimagining defensive plays

The triple option, but for defense? Kevin May has designed a defensive scheme so player friendly that anyone could have success doing it.
www.espn.com www.espn.com
Click to expand...
Not that it's the same thing, but it made me remember that play we ran against Washington State in the bowl game where our defense was all in a single-file line.
 

Cobra said:
This is a really interesting article about an unusual defensive scheme.
The results are obviously positive. The downside is it’s complexity.
If I was a P4 DC, I’d do a deep dive and get on it early.

www.espn.com

'I don't know how you'd stop it': How a D-II coach is reimagining defensive plays

The triple option, but for defense? Kevin May has designed a defensive scheme so player friendly that anyone could have success doing it.
www.espn.com www.espn.com
Click to expand...
Interesting...thanks for getting it in front of us. My guess is a bottm-feeder D1 school brings in Day and he gets his chance to find out if it works at this level.

If I needed an assistant on D at Minnesota I'd be tempted to bring him on board... he's on another level with strategy and tactics.

I'll be following Seton Hall this season.
 

Everything old eventually becomes new again...

"A version of the flex was popularized in the 1970s and 1980s by former Dallas Cowboys head coach Tom Landry, whose own players often complained about its inscrutability despite the team's dominant performance. Dick Tomney's Arizona Wildcats ran a flex with Tedy Bruschi in the 1990s with great success, too. But the flex had largely fallen out of favor at the highest levels because it inverted nearly all of the pillars of typical football Xs and Os."

I remember football announcers on TV being enamored with Landry's Flex defense back in the 1970s.
 




RememberMurray said:
Everything old eventually becomes new again...

"A version of the flex was popularized in the 1970s and 1980s by former Dallas Cowboys head coach Tom Landry, whose own players often complained about its inscrutability despite the team's dominant performance. Dick Tomney's Arizona Wildcats ran a flex with Tedy Bruschi in the 1990s with great success, too. But the flex had largely fallen out of favor at the highest levels because it inverted nearly all of the pillars of typical football Xs and Os."

I remember football announcers on TV being enamored with Landry's Flex defense back in the 1970s.
Click to expand...
Yes. Little to nothing is new under the sun.
 

Word said:
Not that it's the same thing, but it made me remember that play we ran against Washington State in the bowl game where our defense was all in a single-file line.
Click to expand...
I was at the game. Tracy outfoxed Leach. I remember that later I thought about "Miracle," when the Russian coach didn't know how to pull the goalie--and Brooks said "He doesn't know what to do!"
 

it may be a fascinating defensive scheme - but for a P4 school to adopt something like that would require a coach who is willing to take risks on an unorthodox system.

and MN does not have a coach like that at this time. unorthodox and 'take risks' are not in the Fleck coaching vocabulary. That doesn't mean Fleck is a bad coach - it just means he is not a risk-taker.

if the Pirate was still with us, I could see him giving this a try, just for the hell of it.
 



RememberMurray said:
Everything old eventually becomes new again...

"A version of the flex was popularized in the 1970s and 1980s by former Dallas Cowboys head coach Tom Landry, whose own players often complained about its inscrutability despite the team's dominant performance. Dick Tomney's Arizona Wildcats ran a flex with Tedy Bruschi in the 1990s with great success, too. But the flex had largely fallen out of favor at the highest levels because it inverted nearly all of the pillars of typical football Xs and Os."

I remember football announcers on TV being enamored with Landry's Flex defense back in the 1970s.
Click to expand...
Yeah Landry's schemes was like this and made their linebackers really effective.

Good for this coach to try something different to help when there may not be as many options. For a program like this sometimes you need to get creative when the resources just aren't there.

Might be interesting to check their record at the end of the season to see where their record is at. They finished 5-6 in 2021, dipped to 2-9 in 2022 and reached 6-5 in 2023. That was their first winning record since 2008. Here's a look at their records before COVID, which DII teams didn't play:
  • 2010: 2-9
  • 2011: 1-10
  • 2012: 0-11
  • 2013: 1-10
  • 2014: 3-8
  • 2015: 3-8
  • 2016: 5-6
  • 2017: 0-11
  • 2018: 1-10
  • 2019: 2-8
Reminds me a bit of Minnesota State Moorhead's football program in the 2000s before Coach Steve Laqua arrived. The Dragons had a tough transition to DII and the program was in rough shape. The team has become much more competitive and is winning many more games since Laqua was hired, and he's put in a heavy passing attack that's close to the air raid.
 

Arminius said:
Interesting...thanks for getting it in front of us. My guess is a bottm-feeder D1 school brings in Day and he gets his chance to find out if it works at this level.

If I needed an assistant on D at Minnesota I'd be tempted to bring him on board... he's on another level with strategy and tactics.

I'll be following Seton Hall this season.
Click to expand...
Seton Hill actually, which is a DII program!
 

Panthadad2 said:
Oh, the beauty of a big ol' offensive line, disciplined zone blocking and a tough running back. It could still beat the hell out of this flex with multiple d-linemen in stand-up positions.
Click to expand...

Yep.

We're going to be coming hard, downhill, right at you with 300 lb. linemen leading a stable of quick, tough running backs. You bring your complicated defensive scheme against that. Let's see who wins.

Sometimes football coaches get too caught up in being flashy and/or innovative. But, truth be told, the fundamentals never change. The team that blocks and tackles best usually wins.
 

RememberMurray said:
Yep.

We're going to be coming hard, downhill, right at you with 300 lb. linemen leading a stable of quick, tough running backs. You bring your complicated defensive scheme against that. Let's see who wins.

Sometimes football coaches get too caught up in being flashy and/or innovative. But, truth be told, the fundamentals never change. The team that blocks and tackles best usually wins.
Click to expand...
Agreed, winning the battle in the trenches is what made Saban so successful at Alabama. He had some really good QBs and RBs, but they were helped by a great offensive line. On the flip side, They faced some great offenses and won by shutting down the run and making the QB uncomfortable.
 




I'm not sure what to make of the story...
In 2023 they allowed
35 points
23
55
35
23
17
41
28
28
0
10 points
They finished 6 and 5...they may be having fun but they give up a lot of points.
Maybe the defense scores points? They won with 28, 24, 35, 38, 30 and 14 in the shutout.
Story doesn't say much about forcing turnovers, however.
 
Last edited:

Fleck's cautious run heavy offense... a little off topic but it came up in discussion so I want to talk about that.

I read Brian Billick's book on offense. He talked about playing the percentages. Run or pass and how. Who is your opponent? You also want to mask your own tendencies.

Run or pass on 3rd and 5?

On 3rd and 12, pass to the sticks, go deep, or pass short and try to run the rest (picking up some yards)? Etc.

Then Billick talked about adding explosives. Those are what win the game. Boom! Three TD's from drives with big plays.

Gophers will have one of the best run games in the country, maybe even top 12.

Enter new quarterback Max Brosmer...


Would be real nice to pick up those first downs reliably passing AND gain explosives.


Now back to Fleck's cautious run heavy offense, if you don't have a great QB, even more reason to run. Not everyone can have Peyton Manning. Speaking of which, he was the best at play action.


People complain about Fleck being cautious... let's talk about playing the percentages. Would throwing it improve the odds? Not last season.

So maybe Fleck is 100% right, playing the percentages and run.

But now that Brosmer is here...
 

Cobra said:
This is a really interesting article about an unusual defensive scheme.
The results are obviously positive. The downside is it’s complexity.
If I was a P4 DC, I’d do a deep dive and get on it early.

www.espn.com

'I don't know how you'd stop it': How a D-II coach is reimagining defensive plays

The triple option, but for defense? Kevin May has designed a defensive scheme so player friendly that anyone could have success doing it.
www.espn.com www.espn.com
Click to expand...
Did the Gophers run a bit of the Flex defense against Washington State in a bowl game? I seem to remember some pretty odd formations with only two down linemen.
 

It sounds like a good option to throw something different at an opponent or run it if you don’t have the traditional athletes to control the line of scrimmage. I do think more innovation is needed on the defensive side of the ball but not sure the numbers support that this is that effective.
 

GopherMarroon said:
Fleck's cautious run heavy offense... a little off topic but it came up in discussion so I want to talk about that.

I read Brian Billick's book on offense. He talked about playing the percentages. Run or pass and how. Who is your opponent? You also want to mask your own tendencies.

Run or pass on 3rd and 5?

On 3rd and 12, pass to the sticks, go deep, or pass short and try to run the rest (picking up some yards)? Etc.

Then Billick talked about adding explosives. Those are what win the game. Boom! Three TD's from drives with big plays.

Gophers will have one of the best run games in the country, maybe even top 12.

Enter new quarterback Max Brosmer...


Would be real nice to pick up those first downs reliably passing AND gain explosives.


Now back to Fleck's cautious run heavy offense, if you don't have a great QB, even more reason to run. Not everyone can have Peyton Manning. Speaking of which, he was the best at play action.


People complain about Fleck being cautious... let's talk about playing the percentages. Would throwing it improve the odds? Not last season.

So maybe Fleck is 100% right, playing the percentages and run.

But now that Brosmer is here...
Click to expand...

MN ran about 60% of the time in 2019, and 2023. That was despite having two NFL wide receivers including a really special one, and a very accurate QB. As SON alluded to Fleck is who he is. That 60% is going to be the absolute floor, one has to think. It worked, that offense was pretty explosive. MI won* a national championship with a similar approach albeit another tier of talent helped.

Percentage-wise and with numerous caveats (this was a NFL analysis) running rather than passing on first down doesn’t make statistical sense, unless the QB, receivers, scheme and/or blockers stink. That’s one stat that has always driven me nuts with the Fleck offenses - a consistently high run to pass ratio on first down, but I’m open to arguments I’m actually wrong and/or nuts.




*season, post-season wins to be vacated at a later date
 

Pompous Elitist said:
That’s one stat that has always driven me nuts with the Fleck offenses - a consistently high run to pass ratio on first down, but I’m open to arguments I’m actually wrong and/or nuts.
Click to expand...

With Brosmer maybe they throw a little more on first down. He was a 64% completion rate last season. I love a high-percentage short passing game. A 5 yard pass is the same as a 5 yard run. Sets up other things as a base.

The last Gophers QB AK may hit the back of the helmet on 3rd and 4.

REALLY nice to rely on passing to pick up a 3rd and 4-7.

Gophers average yards per pass attempt: 8.85 (I hope that's the current one).

Brosmer 7.6.
 

I remember after a game where PJ said he needed to "make the defence even simpler". Implying that it was simple but not simple enough for this group of morons. I expect the D said thanks for the bus PJ we will now go lay under it. So I dont expect the flex anytime soon.
 

Cobra said:
This is a really interesting article about an unusual defensive scheme.
The results are obviously positive. The downside is it’s complexity.
If I was a P4 DC, I’d do a deep dive and get on it early.

www.espn.com

'I don't know how you'd stop it': How a D-II coach is reimagining defensive plays

The triple option, but for defense? Kevin May has designed a defensive scheme so player friendly that anyone could have success doing it.
www.espn.com www.espn.com
Click to expand...


Very interesting post and a good job finding it! Finally, something new to look at in football. I have to wonder if the new players are calling it complex to learn because they are used to running the 4-3 or 3-4 for years in High School and Middle School that they have to totaly reset or break their previous position mindset. I know that once taught a certain concept or way of doing things it takes longer to break the old learning to revise your thinking!!!
 

60's Guy said:
I'm not sure what to make of the story...
In 2023 they allowed
35 points
23
55
35
23
17
41
28
28
0
10 points
They finished 6 and 5...they may be having fun but they give up a lot of points.
Maybe the defense scores points? They won with 28, 24, 35, 38, 30 and 14 in the shutout.
Story doesn't say much about forcing turnovers, however.
Click to expand...
Although I'd love to see this defense being run the school's win/loss record and poiunts allowed makes me wonder about the article also
 

I’m a high school Offensive Coordinator and we used to play against a team that had a similar defense. It was such a nightmare to gameplan for…the game was equally as frustrating. We couldn’t get anything to work and when we did get rolling, they’d shut us down on big 3rd/4th and shorts. It took a miracle comeback and onside kick for us to get the win

We were supposed to play them again in the last game the following year. But the team ended up forfeiting because they had like 15 kids out with injury. That was the problem with this defense at the high school level - it puts the kids on a kamikaze mission and a lot of them get hurt. There was a big uproar amongst parents and the coach got fired…but I’m sure glad I never had to see that defense again
 

You must log in or register to reply here.



Top Bottom