The Fisch hiring could still be a kill shot.

[glovedgopher]

Unfortunately it could be to Brewster's coach career. Firing Dunbar really didn't make much sense to me back than and it makes no sense to me now. I thought the offense under Dunbar did a decent job and could score some points. In year one, we had a freshmen QB and Mason's players learning a new system putting up decent numbers. Most of us thought with improved players (speed) the system would take off and help with recruiting. Year two we improved but still had some of the same problems getting short yardage conversions. Of course we were still playing with Mason's players who were recruited to play a zone running attack offense. We were building a program from the ground up which required growing pains. That was the plan right? So than you fire Dunbar who is the only coordinator that hadn't left for another job and hire a first time OC. Now we switch to a "pro style type offense" and start the process all over again. Why? Gray (our best recruit) was recruited to play in a spread offense not a pro style. Same thing can be said about are running backs. Now it seems we're moving back to the spread after watching the OSU game. We have no identity and Weber's confidence is shattered. Why did Brewster feel the need to switch to a pro style? I'm not a Brewster hater but this seems like the type of mistake that could set the program back a few years. Hoping I'm wrong. Go Gophers!

 

[tpbeight]

I don't want to be a Fisch apologist, but i guess i will be here.

He's a first time coordinator. He's going to get better. He's learning on the job and he will grow as a coach over the course of this season. In the offseason he'll have a chance to sit back and see where he made mistakes, and i think we'll see a more "focused" attack next year.

Brewster is not going to be fired after this season, and hopefully neither is Fisch. This program CANNOT start over with a new OC again next year. There's no way.

 

[50PoundHead]

I hated the Dunbar hire, but agree that moving away from the spread to something so radically different has really affected the offense negatively (ya think?). I think Fisch is creative, but I've found his play-calling baffling at times. My guess is both Brewster and Fisch are going to be here at least through next season, so I'm going to be patient and hope for better things.

 

[Section2]

I hated the Dunbar hire, but agree that moving away from the spread to something so radically different has really affected the offense negatively (ya think?). I think Fisch is creative, but I've found his play-calling baffling at times. My guess is both Brewster and Fisch are going to be here at least through next season, so I'm going to be patient and hope for better things.

1. The offense is not really that radically different other than we dont' run 15 bubble screens in a row anymore and we are under center more.
2. The offensive production is about the same as last year, no? Almost no first half 1st downs against a michigan defense that was routinely torched. Shut out vs Iowa. Only 10 pts vs NW. 16 pts vs Indiana. That was NOT a good offense.
3. Which play calls have been baffling? The plays that didn't work so you thought "that was a stupid play!"

 

[Hates Monikers]

Fisch may end up being a great coordinator someday, maybe even soon. And I don't have much of a problem with the switch in offensive philosophies.

My problem with the hire is that the Brewster model when he came in as an unproven head coach was that he was going to hire proven, experienced coordinators to take up some of that slack. I think Brewster likes the fact that Fisch's experience and enthusiasm are similar to Brewster's -- he sees some of himself in Fisch. But it resulted in an inexperienced head coach overseeing an inexperienced coordinator who need to grow into their jobs.

I still have high hopes for both Brewster and Fisch. But I would've expected Brewster to hire a guy who has been a coordinator before. I know he tried ...

 

[50PoundHead]

Section 2, I think having the QB under center 75% of the time makes for a radically different approach. The spread is built so that check-downs can be made rapidly and every play has a "hot" receiver that is likely to be open. The problem with that offense is that it can be "blown up" by a physical defense rather easily. It appears the Fisch offense requires the QB to make more difficult reads and Weber is having difficulties with the transition. So yeah, I think it's radically different.

As for the play-calling, the sequences just seem out of sync at times. It's not the old "it didn't work so it's lousy play-calling." I'm a sophisticated enough fan to be above that.

I do agree with you that our performance under the spread was largely overblown. It still boils down to players and as I said above, the spread can be blown up pretty easily by a superior team.

 

[Ole]

Section 2, I think having the QB under center 75% of the time makes for a radically different approach. The spread is built so that check-downs can be made rapidly and every play has a "hot" receiver that is likely to be open. The problem with that offense is that it can be "blown up" by a physical defense rather easily. It appears the Fisch offense requires the QB to make more difficult reads and Weber is having difficulties with the transition. So yeah, I think it's radically different.

As for the play-calling, the sequences just seem out of sync at times. It's not the old "it didn't work so it's lousy play-calling." I'm a sophisticated enough fan to be above that.

I do agree with you that our performance under the spread was largely overblown. It still boils down to players and as I said above, the spread can be blown up pretty easily by a superior team.

I'm of the opinion that plays are there to be made under Fisch, but are not being executed.
I'm going out on a limb here, but with the description of the Qb responsibilities in the offense including so much(OL protection, blitz recognition, motions, run/pass audibles, etc), I wouldn't be suprised if the WR's, TE's, and RB's have similarly complicated responsibilities, which could include reading coverages on the fly, pass protection, hot routes. Combined with the OL troubles, we've seen alot of miscommunication and crossed wires so to speak. I have also been amazed at the amount of plays included, we seem to have 3-7 new ones every game, even still.
The digestion of all this will make our players better in the long run, but I think is really holding them back right now. Compare this O to say Wisconsin's, tell me which is more difficult to implement?

 

[ncgo4]

Minnesota sports has a relatively low budget when compared to the big time programs. This could change if we keep filling our new stadium and with a revitalized basketball program, but it has not yet. Because if this we hired a new head coach and two years later an OC under an on-the-job training plan. I think we might have qualified for some Federal grant-in-aid money for these moves. I sure hope Mature remembered to apply for it.

Because of this we will have to be a little more patient than if we had, say, put together a $3 million package and gotten Lane Kiffin and his assistants. Most importantly, remember we have had two years of good recruiting while OSU & others are playing with those they have as a result of five years of good recruiting. Also don't forget that many of our top recruits from last year are being red shirted so, in effect, we really have the results of about 1 1/2 years of good recruiting on the field.

Given this and another great class coming in, we are doing well. Not spectacular, but given the huge upgrade in schedule not bad. Not bad at all.

 

[thailleagle]

I got tired of seeing us in Shotgun on 3rd & 2 all the time.......

 

[Too Long in the Wasteland]

You make some good points. I doubt the team Mason fielded in 2006 would be 4-4 against this years' opponents. And I cannot remember ever having this much underclassmen talent on the team, particularly on defense & QB. Unfortunately, RB is another story, but having our bluechip recruit denied admittance this year didn't help.

One thing just about everyone on this board can agree upon is that the turnover in coordinators is a bad thing, and many of the transitions could have been handled better. The thing I struggle with on the Fisch hire is that you've got a head coach who's on an OJT program. Why do you hire an even greener offensive coordinator? I train in a lot of young engineers in my job, and the #1 thing I have to teach them is the KISS principle. It took me about 20 years to learn it myself. I agree with Ole that our offense could be simplified, maybe even dumbed down.

And its clear that our underclassmen need another year in the weight room before they can go toe to toe with the Wisconsin's, PSU's, and tOSU's. On both sides of the ball. Hopefully by then Brewster is a bit further along the learning curve. If he isn't, or the team hasn't improved by the end of next year, then Maturi will have a hard decision on his hands.

 

[grunkiejr]

Maybe I'm an outlier here but I like Fisch as an offensive coordinator. I thought our offensive game plan against Ohio State was very good but we failed to execute. We had 5 drops in the first half and Weber threw a 5-yard bounce to an open Brandon Green. Fisch can't go out there and throw or catch the ball. If those plays are converted for first downs our offense stays out on the field and we probably score some points (2 drops came when we were at the OSU 33 yd line--pick up 8 yards and it is a 42 yd FG instead of a punt on our first series).

I also think people make the changes in the offense--and our identity--out to be more than they are. We have been trying to spread the field (3 WR sets) all season. We added a power running game & play-action passing element to the offense. Yes, there were a lot of changes in terminology, hand signals, protection calling responsibilities, etc but we haven't made drastic changes to the type of players we bring in and how we try to use them (bigger RB's is the biggest difference). Prior to the season Fisch avoided labeling his offense but I would call it a hybrid spread & power running offense with elements of the west coast offense instead of spread coast offense we were running.

 

[GophersInIowa]

Last year we average 17 points per game in Big Ten play. This year it's 21. Last year we averaged 281.5 yards per game in conference play, this year 277. Last year we averaged 14.75 first downs per game, this year 15.

If you look at all games, the numbers favor the 2008 offense but a lot of that has to do with the much easier non conference schedule.

 

[thailleagle]

Last year we average 17 points per game in Big Ten play. This year it's 21. Last year we averaged 281.5 yards per game in conference play, this year 277. Last year we averaged 14.75 first downs per game, this year 15.

If you look at all games, the numbers favor the 2008 offense but a lot of that has to do with the much easier non conference schedule.

Let's also wait until the season is over to compare averages. Those averages might drop if we don't score much on MSU & Illinois and GOD FORBID another shutout against Iowa.......

 

[grunkiejr]

Last year we average 17 points per game in Big Ten play. This year it's 21. Last year we averaged 281.5 yards per game in conference play, this year 277. Last year we averaged 14.75 first downs per game, this year 15.

If you look at all games, the numbers favor the 2008 offense but a lot of that has to do with the much easier non conference schedule.

Interesting stats considering 2 of our 5 Big Ten games have been against Ohio State and Penn State which are the two best defenses in the Big Ten. Last year we got Indiana & Michigan--two of the weaker defenses in the conference--instead of Penn State and Michigan State--a top 2 D and a middle of the conference D--so if we match or beat last year's production it is still an improvement.

I'd be interested to see a comparison of our offensive production against each opponent to the average yardage, points, etc that they allowed during the season. It sounds like I may have a project to occupy my time during the offseason.

 

[Monty519]

I've rewatched quite a few of our games (ESPN360.com is awesome lol), and I seriously can't believe how many times we'd have drives killed either by holding, false starts, or dropped/inaccurate passes to wide guys (on 3rd downs no less!). I cannot blame Fisch for those types of errors. They are player execution breakdowns that completely mess up drives. The 1st half against OSU was a comedy of errors by the offense.

I think the Wisconsin game was a particular "shooting of the foot" game. The goalline penalty on the 1st down that led to a FG instead of a touchdown. The holding penalty to start the second half of Wisconsin when Eskridge had the big run that ended up with a pick instead of a TD. These types of things have been happening all year, and I really can't put the fault on Fisch for those types of errors. The players just gotta execute better.

 

[GophersInIowa]

Let's also wait until the season is over to compare averages. Those averages might drop if we don't score much on MSU & Illinois and GOD FORBID another shutout against Iowa.......

Just pointing out that as of now, our offense was not any better last year using the spread under Dunbar. I understand that there is still more games to be played and things could change.

 

[Gophers15]

Fisch is not doing to bad of being an OC. When you watch the games on TV the announcers are always complementing him on his play calls. We just need another year to work with the system, we need a big time back (maybe Edwards or Donnel can fit this bill as of now but I hope we can land Huff or Williams) and we need Gray to start. If we get those things down I see big things for this offense next year

 

[glovedgopher]

I'm not saying fire Fisch or that he is a bad OC or that Dunbar was a good a OC. I'm just don't understand why we gave up on the spread and switched styles. Or I should say tried to switch styles. Does anyone think that Gray's talents are best utilized under center or in a shotgun? You can run the ball out of the spread. Oregon is a good example of this. They run the spread but are more of a rushing team. 3rd and 2 is not a problem for them or most teams that run the spread well. The spread works in college because of speed which is what we are recruiting. I agree with the KISS idea. These are college students who can only practice 20 hours a week and are only here for 4-5 years. That's why I did not like switching the whole offensive scheme.

 

[MNCH]

Fisch may end up being a great coordinator someday, maybe even soon. And I don't have much of a problem with the switch in offensive philosophies.

My problem with the hire is that the Brewster model when he came in as an unproven head coach was that he was going to hire proven, experienced coordinators to take up some of that slack. I think Brewster likes the fact that Fisch's experience and enthusiasm are similar to Brewster's -- he sees some of himself in Fisch. But it resulted in an inexperienced head coach overseeing an inexperienced coordinator who need to grow into their jobs.

I still have high hopes for both Brewster and Fisch. But I would've expected Brewster to hire a guy who has been a coordinator before. I know he tried ...

Great post!

 

[upchurch]

So we have to give Fisch time to learn on the job like we're doing with Brewster? Really? Maybe Dunbar failed because of Weber'spoor play. Maybe if Dunbar had Gray running the show we'd be a successful offense.

This is a Big 10 team and we shouldn't be a job training site. I watch teams like Cincy and Boise and it makes me long for good coaching.

 

[GopherGod]

Fisch may end up being a great coordinator someday, maybe even soon. And I don't have much of a problem with the switch in offensive philosophies.

My problem with the hire is that the Brewster model when he came in as an unproven head coach was that he was going to hire proven, experienced coordinators to take up some of that slack. I think Brewster likes the fact that Fisch's experience and enthusiasm are similar to Brewster's -- he sees some of himself in Fisch. But it resulted in an inexperienced head coach overseeing an inexperienced coordinator who need to grow into their jobs.

I still have high hopes for both Brewster and Fisch. But I would've expected Brewster to hire a guy who has been a coordinator before. I know he tried ...

I would imagine we ended up with an inexperienced coordinator because it is hard to lure a good experienced coordinator to work for a head coach that many coordinators may feel they are more qualified then. It is just a credibility issue and it would be hard to take direction from a head coach who hasn't done the job of a coordinator especially if I was a very experienced coordinator, and then throw in the fact that we are not one of the higher paying jobs in the BCS. I would imagine an experienced coordinator may be willing to take a lower salary if he feels that he can learn a lot from the head coach and will eventually make up the salary hit down line.

 

[thailleagle]

I would imagine we ended up with an inexperienced coordinator because it is hard to lure a good experienced coordinator to work for a head coach that many coordinators may feel they are more qualified then. It is just a credibility issue and it would be hard to take direction from a head coach who hasn't done the job of a coordinator especially if I was a very experienced coordinator, and then throw in the fact that we are not one of the higher paying jobs in the BCS. I would imagine an experienced coordinator may be willing to take a lower salary if he feels that he can learn a lot from the head coach and will eventually make up the salary hit down line.

BINGO

 

[Nort73]

I never really got why we changed our offensive scheme so drastically. If you have a good enough scheme and a solid O-line you can run the ball out of any formation. I heard a stat a couple games ago where Alabama (I believe) was averaging 8.8 yards per rush out of the shotgun. Probably went down after these last two games, but regardless that is very impressive. I would have loved to see us stick with the spread. Weber is more comfortable running out of the shotgun as well, from what I can see.

 

[glovedgopher]

I was hoping a team with a 3rd year QB a stud WR would improve greatly on 2008 not keep pace with a less than average offense.

 

[dpodoll68]

I would imagine we ended up with an inexperienced coordinator because it is hard to lure a good experienced coordinator to work for a head coach that many coordinators may feel they are more qualified then.

Thanks for informing us that Pelini has had problems luring coordinators.

 

[ButchNashGuy]

BINGO

I would imagine we ended up with an inexperienced coordinator because it is hard to lure a good experienced coordinator to work for a head coach that many coordinators may feel they are more qualified then. It is just a credibility issue and it would be hard to take direction from a head coach who hasn't done the job of a coordinator especially if I was a very experienced coordinator, and then throw in the fact that we are not one of the higher paying jobs in the BCS. I would imagine an experienced coordinator may be willing to take a lower salary if he feels that he can learn a lot from the head coach and will eventually make up the salary hit down line.

When Brew went out he got Dunbar who was a very high paid OC. Was able to for two reasons.
1.) He took less pay, and didn't merit high pay because he was not a proven HC
2.) He is not an X&O guy so the OC will run the offense. Not have a HC that is always second-guessing and looking over your shoulder.

 

[thailleagle]

When Brew went out he got Dunbar who was a very high paid OC. Was able to for two reasons.
1.) He took less pay, and didn't merit high pay because he was not a proven HC
2.) He is not an X&O guy so the OC will run the offense. Not have a HC that is always second-guessing and looking over your shoulder.

Dunbar pretty much was "coaching" Brewster.......

 

[Mulligan]

I'm of the opinion that plays are there to be made under Fisch, but are not being executed.
I'm going out on a limb here, but with the description of the Qb responsibilities in the offense including so much(OL protection, blitz recognition, motions, run/pass audibles, etc), I wouldn't be suprised if the WR's, TE's, and RB's have similarly complicated responsibilities, which could include reading coverages on the fly, pass protection, hot routes. Combined with the OL troubles, we've seen alot of miscommunication and crossed wires so to speak. I have also been amazed at the amount of plays included, we seem to have 3-7 new ones every game, even still.
The digestion of all this will make our players better in the long run, but I think is really holding them back right now. Compare this O to say Wisconsin's, tell me which is more difficult to implement?

I go back and forth on this. My first inclination is to want a more simplified offense. You can see it mostly with Weber, but I agree that the whole offense looks confused and unconfident.

However, simplifying the offense isn't necessarily going to work if the defense has more talent. We don't have Wisconsin's offensive linemen and we certainly don't have a Clay type back. Our backs don't break many tackles, and they don't have many moves. Old guys with a paunch probably shouldn't be too critical, but our backs also don't seem to have much speed or good vision. At times, it has seemed there's a lane several yards over, but since they're slashers, they don't shift to it. Our receivers had good ratings when they were recruited, but I don't see that much separation and there have been more than a few dropped balls. You can argue a good OC is still responsible for making sure backs have space or that receivers get separation, but at a certain talent disparity I'm not so sure how much he can do. Somebody pointed out in another thread the lack of big plays and I think that's really a good indication of inferior talent. We just haven't had play makers.

Perhaps Fisch saw this and decided with less talent that he had to fool people. So new plays are added and the system gets more complicated which leads to being more out of sync. Against a good defense it's like do you beat your head against a wall or do try to fool and confuse them? I don't think the plan is either/or but trying to do too much of both is where the "no identity" criticism comes in.

I'm really interested to see what Saturday brings. Michigan State isn't Penn State and we're at home. Yes, Decker is gone, but now they're going to have spread things around and that just might start opening things up. Gray and Stoudermire have the speed and elusiveness to make big plays and I have a feeling they're going to be play makers. Should they have been relied on more already? Perhaps, but we really don't know how ready they were. It'll be a little ironic if Brewster, who brought in an OC to pound the ball, gets on a winning streak because that OC found a formula for success by spreading the ball around.

 

[GophersInIowa]

Dunbar pretty much was "coaching" Brewster.......

Please explain

 

[thailleagle]

Please explain

This is just speculation & rumors so take it with a grain of salt but when Dunbar was brought here it was said that he was helping Brewster out a lot because he had previous HC-ing experience and was pretty much running the team WITH him that first season while Brewster was still learning and getting into the groove of being a HC.......