The curious case of Oto Osenieks

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bga1 said:
Underground- You must not play golf. :)
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Touche, BGA.

I can be cruising along with a nice round going and then out of nowhere comes a shank. That shank then forces me to think. Thinking then puts bad thoughts in my head. And then the rest of the round (more often than not) becomes "shank you very much."
 

underground629 said:
I think the importance of confidence is often overstated when it comes to not shooting well, especially when you're dealing with players who have never really proven themselves. Regardless of confidence, some players just aren't talented scorers. That seems like a more logical explanation in the case of Oto. I would attribute the poor performance of the subs to a lack of talent as well--not a lack of confidence.
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Have you ever shot a basketball.....

Better question might be have you played competitive sports ever?
 

Winasota Gopher said:
Have you ever shot a basketball.....

Better question might be have you played competitive sports ever?
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I'm sure he has. But you just can't pass up an opportunity to bash a current player. Gotta do that as often as possible, even when it doesn't make sense.
 


I think part of the problem is the bench plays with a lot of risk and little reward. Bad shot or bonehead plays gets you pulled but if Oto (or others) comes in a drops a couple of threes they are back on the bench anyways. The whole platoon system dictates that.

If they were subbing in a normal rotation they could give a bench player extended minutes, something Tubby cannot do when playing the bench as a group.
 


Winnipegopher said:
I think part of the problem is the bench plays with a lot of risk and little reward. Bad shot or bonehead plays gets you pulled but if Oto (or others) comes in a drops a couple of threes they are back on the bench anyways. The whole platoon system dictates that.

If they were subbing in a normal rotation they could give a bench player extended minutes, something Tubby cannot do when playing the bench as a group.
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Yes. A perfect example of this was the Michigan where Welch came in for Andre for most of the first half because Andre got two quick fouls. Welch saved our bacon in that half by scoring 8 points then was rarely seen in the second half.
Meanwhile Coleman scored 5 points and got 32 minutes on 1 for 4 shooting. Tubby seems to see ceertain guys as strictly a backup for another guy and he doesn't seem to have the flexibility to change that much. Honestly I think he likes the simplicity of just sticking 5 new guys in at once so that he gets it all out of the way at once.

Tom Kelly of Twins fame used to be a master at getting the most out of pinch hitters. It was amazing he would find some so-so hitter and figure out what he could do well in what conditions. He would get the guy in for 100- 150 at bats and the guy would hit .300 for the year. That's great coaching.
 

Haha, that's actually a good analogy that lends credence to my point. If you don't have a good stroke, like myself, confidence doesn't matter THAT much. Regardless of my confidence, I'm not a good golfer. Increased confidence isn't going to significantly improve my swing.

bga1 said:
Underground- You must not play golf. :)
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Please explain how it doesn't make sense. What's a more parsimonious explanation... Oto, along with our subs, simply aren't performing because they've lost confidence? Or maybe, just maybe, they aren't that talented in comparison to the players they are playing against. Hmmm, that's a tough one. I know you feel the need to defend every player even when you have no argument, but c'mon. I've posted on here enough that you know I don't just bash every player when I can.

scher215 said:
I'm sure he has. But you just can't pass up an opportunity to bash a current player. Gotta do that as often as possible, even when it doesn't make sense.
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Yes... thanks for asking. Please see the post above... I'd love to hear a legitimate argument against it. Yes, confidence and performance are undoubtedly correlated, and for some reason, people assume causation, and way too much in the wrong direction. Oto is simply not a good shooter, regardless of his confidence. I'm not sure why that's so hard to fathom.

Winasota Gopher said:
Have you ever shot a basketball.....

Better question might be have you played competitive sports ever?
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underground629 said:
Yes... thanks for asking. Please see the post above... I'd love to hear a legitimate argument against it. Yes, confidence and performance are undoubtedly correlated, and for some reason, people assume causation, and way too much in the wrong direction. Oto is simply not a good shooter, regardless of his confidence. I'm not sure why that's so hard to fathom.
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Your post was directly after a chain of posts about people that shot the lights out of the gym in warmups (proving good shooters) and then being absolutely awful in the game.....
 

Haha, wow. That's your argument? You think shooting in warmups is the same as shooting with a BT defender on you? I'll keep waiting for a legitimate argument.

Winasota Gopher said:
Your post was directly after a chain of posts about people that shot the lights out of the gym in warmups (proving good shooters) and then being absolutely awful in the game.....
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no i dont.

You claimed that he lacked skill despite the commenter saying he shoots well in warmups. You then made a comment about how confidence is overplayed.

All I'm saying is Otto very well may be a great shooter in an environment that he is comfortable with. His form looked good in prior years and as of late (early this year after he "tweaked it" it was disgusting). I can totally fathom that Otto was a good shooter in his element, but the speed and physicallity of the Big Ten along with being asked to do a couple things he doesn't normally has made him uncomfortable and lacking confidence.

My question of whether or not you've ever shot a basketball was related to just that. I feel like I am a decent shooter, when I'm playing against my 8th grade basketball team, I'm lights out... When I'm playing pickup ball against the other coaches in our program, i'm terrible... I'm not confident or comfortable playing with them, they are bigger, faster stronger and have played together longer than I have.

I'm not saying Otto is talented, nor am I saying it's anyone elses fault he isn't shooting well. All I'm saying is that I could subscribe to the argument that its a confidence problem. And if thats it, and Otto shoots lights out in practice, shame on Tubby for not figuring it out and finding a way to make him confident.


Comprende??
 

I thought it was implied that I was talking about his shooting ability while playing basketball... since after all, that's when it matters. Why the hell would it matter that someone is simply a good shooter in warmups. I have a few friends who are great shooters. Can they shoot while defended well though? No. So it doesn't matter.

Oto has never been a good shooter (in a game, which I apparently need to clarify). I understand what you're saying, but that doesn't mean it's a sound argument. You're basically saying he doesn't shoot well against good defenders because he doesn't have confidence. He doesn't shoot well against them because he's not a good shooter with a defender on him. It sounds like you're also saying you don't shoot well when you have bigger, faster, stronger players defending you. Why would you assume that their defense isn't the reason you can't shoot well against them? Obviously it's a lot harder to score with a hand in your face. I was never even saying that confidence can't influence shooting. I just think it's overstated, especially when a player has never shown to be a good shooter in a game.

Winasota Gopher said:
no i dont.

You claimed that he lacked skill despite the commenter saying he shoots well in warmups. You then made a comment about how confidence is overplayed.

All I'm saying is Otto very well may be a great shooter in an environment that he is comfortable with. His form looked good in prior years and as of late (early this year after he "tweaked it" it was disgusting). I can totally fathom that Otto was a good shooter in his element, but the speed and physicallity of the Big Ten along with being asked to do a couple things he doesn't normally has made him uncomfortable and lacking confidence.

My question of whether or not you've ever shot a basketball was related to just that. I feel like I am a decent shooter, when I'm playing against my 8th grade basketball team, I'm lights out... When I'm playing pickup ball against the other coaches in our program, i'm terrible... I'm not confident or comfortable playing with them, they are bigger, faster stronger and have played together longer than I have.

I'm not saying Otto is talented, nor am I saying it's anyone elses fault he isn't shooting well. All I'm saying is that I could subscribe to the argument that its a confidence problem. And if thats it, and Otto shoots lights out in practice, shame on Tubby for not figuring it out and finding a way to make him confident.


Comprende??
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I'd like to see Oto comfortable on the court just once this year.
lately, he comes in with the hockey line.. and ends up with a tepid mav and Welch.. then it is just 5 minutes of survival.

if he came in for Joe for extended minutes.. then joe came in for rodney... so oto could have an 8 minute block where he's not in a panic..
i don't need 3's from him.
just some d, d rebounds, a few mid range buckets, and an interior pass or two.. move the ball... no turnovers.
i still haven't seen enough of him to even determine if he can even play at this level..
 

dboy said:
I'd like to see Oto comfortable on the court just once this year.
lately, he comes in with the hockey line.. and ends up with a tepid mav and Welch.. then it is just 5 minutes of survival.

if he came in for Joe for extended minutes.. then joe came in for rodney... so oto could have an 8 minute block where he's not in a panic..
i don't need 3's from him.
just some d, d rebounds, a few mid range buckets, and an interior pass or two.. move the ball... no turnovers.
i still haven't seen enough of him to even determine if he can even play at this level..
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Agreed. None of the subs will look great all out there together. Hence the reason to stagger them and help confidence.

I'm not giving up on Oto yet, still have hope there!
 


dboy said:
I'd like to see Oto comfortable on the court just once this year.
lately, he comes in with the hockey line.. and ends up with a tepid mav and Welch.. then it is just 5 minutes of survival.

if he came in for Joe for extended minutes.. then joe came in for rodney... so oto could have an 8 minute block where he's not in a panic..
i don't need 3's from him.
just some d, d rebounds, a few mid range buckets, and an interior pass or two.. move the ball... no turnovers.
i still haven't seen enough of him to even determine if he can even play at this level..
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This is exactly how I feel. I think maybe he'd be effective in that role and maybe not. I'd love to see us try these combinations early in the season to see.
 

bga1 said:
I don't think he's horrid. I think he has no confidence because of how he is used. You put him out there with Mav and company and you can figure that things are going to be tough. I think you can trace the poor performance of the subs to the idea that they have been playing all together and flopping as a group for a month and a half now. That has to be pretty humbling and it probably causes them each to hesitate before hoisting a shot.
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Agree completely.
 

underground629 said:
I thought it was implied that I was talking about his shooting ability while playing basketball... since after all, that's when it matters. Why the hell would it matter that someone is simply a good shooter in warmups. I have a few friends who are great shooters. Can they shoot while defended well though? No. So it doesn't matter.

Oto has never been a good shooter (in a game, which I apparently need to clarify). I understand what you're saying, but that doesn't mean it's a sound argument. You're basically saying he doesn't shoot well against good defenders because he doesn't have confidence. He doesn't shoot well against them because he's not a good shooter with a defender on him. It sounds like you're also saying you don't shoot well when you have bigger, faster, stronger players defending you. Why would you assume that their defense isn't the reason you can't shoot well against them? Obviously it's a lot harder to score with a hand in your face. I was never even saying that confidence can't influence shooting. I just think it's overstated, especially when a player has never shown to be a good shooter in a game.
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I was unaware that shooting a basketball with and without a defender on you were seperate skills... we are playing semantics and I'm good with agreeing to disagree... well not really disagree, I'm not fully understanding your argument... maybe I would agree with it if it made sense.
 

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