Sunday Sports Show--what was being alluded to?

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Another bash Pitino diatribe. I am looking forward to see all of you guys to man up and admit you were wrong when he has a successful career at the U. I will start the thread, and I expect all of you to be just as vocal with your apologies.


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I will eat crow on Pitino if i am wrong. I hope i am wrong. Will you admit your wrong if he is fired with a conference winning % of under .300. It was not all his name but if his name had been Bob Smith with his resume he would not have been offered any Big Ten job. I am not hating on him for taking the job, kudos to him for taking the job. It being offered is on Norwood. He can turn it around but he lost tons of time instilling a culture that works which has to include fundamentals that stress always taking good shots on offense and a defense that rarely give up good shots. Over 40 years of representing successful coaches in major conferences i have not seen it done varying from that. Build a identity that you can hang your hat on everyday.
 

alchemy2u said:
Another bash Pitino diatribe. I am looking forward to see all of you guys to man up and admit you were wrong when he has a successful career at the U. I will start the thread, and I expect all of you to be just as vocal with your apologies.


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I would love to be wrong, because it will mean that my school has a successful basketball program. I'm pretty sure that I won't be.
 

builtbadgers said:
I will eat crow on Pitino if i am wrong. I hope i am wrong. Will you admit your wrong if he is fired with a conference winning % of under .300. It was not all his name but if his name had been Bob Smith with his resume he would not have been offered any Big Ten job. I am not hating on him for taking the job, kudos to him for taking the job. It being offered is on Norwood. He can turn it around but he lost tons of time instilling a culture that works which has to include fundamentals that stress always taking good shots on offense and a defense that rarely give up good shots. Over 40 years of representing successful coaches in major conferences i have not seen it done varying from that. Build a identity that you can hang your hat on everyday.
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No because real fans don' root for their coach to fail to be right on a message board, they actually support the team
 



I am rooting for him to succeed. Just have not seen or heard anything to tell me that he will. My definition is to win at least one conference title in a 6-7 year stretch and by year 4 being top 5 nearly every year. I am tired of mediocre at the U. Average or below is not acceptable. Who you bring in and how they play and conduct themselves is all on you. Not always fair but overcoming setbacks is what you get paid for and the anecdote is very high character and a complete devotion to and a mastery of fundamentals. Quit beating yourself. The highest winning percentage coaches in conference history have teams that rarely beat themselves. This program for far too long has played as if they do not value possessions. The worse the talent inequality the greater need for this approach. It is foundational and starts the day your hired.
 

So ... back to the original Q .. what are they (Max & LaVelle) alluding to?
 




No problem - watching that show - Max seemed like he was just waiting to 'bust out' something regarding Pitino ... but then he held back. Same with LaVelle.
 

builtbadgers said:
I am rooting for him to succeed. Just have not seen or heard anything to tell me that he will. My definition is to win at least one conference title in a 6-7 year stretch and by year 4 being top 5 nearly every year. I am tired of mediocre at the U. Average or below is not acceptable. Who you bring in and how they play and conduct themselves is all on you. Not always fair but overcoming setbacks is what you get paid for and the anecdote is very high character and a complete devotion to and a mastery of fundamentals. Quit beating yourself. The highest winning percentage coaches in conference history have teams that rarely beat themselves. This program for far too long has played as if they do not value possessions. The worse the talent inequality the greater need for this approach. It is foundational and starts the day your hired.
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Sounds good. We haven't won one of those in 34 years (if you don't count '97). And only 3 (4 with '97) in the last 97 years...
 

alchemy2u said:
Another bash Pitino diatribe. I am looking forward to see all of you guys to man up and admit you were wrong when he has a successful career at the U. I will start the thread, and I expect all of you to be just as vocal with your apologies.


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Amen brother !
 

builtbadgers said:
I am rooting for him to succeed. Just have not seen or heard anything to tell me that he will.
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Then you haven't dug very far. It is too easy to get infatuated with records and statistics without understanding the factors that have contributed to those numbers. Several people have gone on ad nauseam about the specific details and frankly, if you haven't listened by now it is not worth the effort to repeat ourselves.


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Can someone pull together some stats to see how many schools meet builtbadgers' definition of success? I appreciate the thirst for success, but I don't think that there is an adequate appreciation for the process on his end. There are circumstances at the U which make it a ****ty place to coach, why would a successful coach choose to be here? Given our status and the perception of this program (which existed well before Pitino), we will need to take chances on coaches who have shown potential and are willing to come here, and more importantly, we need to give them the time it takes I succeed in *this* environment. Not some arbitrary environment defined by an anonymous message board poster.


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bc2211 said:
Can someone pull together some stats to see how many schools meet builtbadgers' definition of success? I appreciate the thirst for success, but I don't think that there is an adequate appreciation for the process on his end. There are circumstances at the U which make it a ****ty place to coach, why would a successful coach choose to be here? Given our status and the perception of this program (which existed well before Pitino), we will need to take chances on coaches who have shown potential and are willing to come here, and more importantly, we need to give them the time it takes I succeed in *this* environment. Not some arbitrary environment defined by an anonymous message board poster.


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+1,000


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bc2211 said:
Can someone pull together some stats to see how many schools meet builtbadgers' definition of success? I appreciate the thirst for success, but I don't think that there is an adequate appreciation for the process on his end. There are circumstances at the U which make it a ****ty place to coach, why would a successful coach choose to be here? Given our status and the perception of this program (which existed well before Pitino), we will need to take chances on coaches who have shown potential and are willing to come here, and more importantly, we need to give them the time it takes I succeed in *this* environment. Not some arbitrary environment defined by an anonymous message board poster.


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alchemy2u said:
+1,000


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+19,000
 

Maybe we will find out tonight on the highly rated Sports Show at 9:30. If Lavell is on, look for Sid to tell him to quit talking so much....about three times is my guess.

 

It happened at Miami and Virginia in the ACC and they had a identity quickly. Bob Knight built the identity at IU quickly following a down period. Butler did it quickly, Thad Matta did it quickly. Bennett did it at UW and Ryan built on that. Should i go on and on. They all did it with blood letting defense and low turnover offense.
 

builtbadgers said:
It happened at Miami and Virginia in the ACC and they had a identity quickly. Bob Knight built the identity at IU quickly following a down period. Butler did it quickly, Thad Matta did it quickly. Bennett did it at UW and Ryan built on that. Should i go on and on. They all did it with blood letting defense and low turnover offense.
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At least in Matta's case, in his 3 years at Xavier, he made the tournament all 3 years, won 2 conference titles, and got Xavier to their first ever Elite Eight. He has also been an amazing recruiter since he first got to Ohio State. I think I counted 9 top 50 recruits in his first four seasons, so his recruiting likely had as much, if not more, to do with his success than his coaching acumen. Pitino tried to recruit like that initially, and seemed to at least get some consideration from a handful of top players in the 2014 class like Josh Perkins, Reid Travis, and Isaiah Whitehead. Not many coaches can recruit like Thad Matta. A friend of mine is an Ohio State fan and doesn't believe Matta is a brilliant tactician, but on average he's sending about 2 players to the NBA every 3 years. When you've always got a D'Angelo Russell, or Jared Sullinger, or DeShaun Thomas, or Greg Oden, or Evan Turner on hand, you can go places.

Dick Bennett had a 47-44 record at the end of year 3 at Wisconsin, Pitino is currently at 51-51.

I think hiring Pitino was a good risk to take. Hire him after one great season at the mid-major level and hope to get in early on a hotshot up-and-comer coach. If you wait for him to win a conference title or two or make a cinderella run to the Sweet Sixteen, maybe he has better job offers than Minnesota. Was there anyone at the time who was significantly better than Pitino, or at least more of a sure thing, whom we could have likely gotten? I remember Shaka Smart's name being tossed around a lot, but he had been one of the hottest coaching candidates in the country for a couple years and could afford to wait for a great job to open up. Chris Collins seems to be doing fairly well for himself at Northwestern, though his overall record is nearly identical to Pitino's, he's just had lower highs and higher lows.
 


Cayman said:
At least in Matta's case, in his 3 years at Xavier, he made the tournament all 3 years, won 2 conference titles, and got Xavier to their first ever Elite Eight. He has also been an amazing recruiter since he first got to Ohio State. I think I counted 9 top 50 recruits in his first four seasons, so his recruiting likely had as much, if not more, to do with his success than his coaching acumen. Pitino tried to recruit like that initially, and seemed to at least get some consideration from a handful of top players in the 2014 class like Josh Perkins, Reid Travis, and Isaiah Whitehead. Not many coaches can recruit like Thad Matta. A friend of mine is an Ohio State fan and doesn't believe Matta is a brilliant tactician, but on average he's sending about 2 players to the NBA every 3 years. When you've always got a D'Angelo Russell, or Jared Sullinger, or DeShaun Thomas, or Greg Oden, or Evan Turner on hand, you can go places.

Dick Bennett had a 47-44 record at the end of year 3 at Wisconsin, Pitino is currently at 51-51.

I think hiring Pitino was a good risk to take. Hire him after one great season at the mid-major level and hope to get in early on a hotshot up-and-comer coach. If you wait for him to win a conference title or two or make a cinderella run to the Sweet Sixteen, maybe he has better job offers than Minnesota. Was there anyone at the time who was significantly better than Pitino, or at least more of a sure thing, whom we could have likely gotten? I remember Shaka Smart's name being tossed around a lot, but he had been one of the hottest coaching candidates in the country for a couple years and could afford to wait for a great job to open up. Chris Collins seems to be doing fairly well for himself at Northwestern, though his overall record is nearly identical to Pitino's, he's just had lower highs and higher lows.
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Feel free to drop the mic on your way off stage.

Boom
 

Unregistered User said:
You named 6 examples (doubling up on your beloved wisconsin) spanning 45 years...and that is you "expectation"?



Yes...because that is cherry picking at it's worst.
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This is exactly what I expected.


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builtbadgers said:
It happened at Miami and Virginia in the ACC and they had a identity quickly. Bob Knight built the identity at IU quickly following a down period. Butler did it quickly, Thad Matta did it quickly. Bennett did it at UW and Ryan built on that. Should i go on and on. They all did it with blood letting defense and low turnover offense.
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Virginia happened quickly? Tony Bennet was 31-31 in his first 2 seasons there. Mind you his third season he was 22-10 for an overall record of 53-41 in that stretch. Imagine if Pitino went 31-31 in his first 2 seasons at MN would he have had a 3rd?

Butler happened quickly? When do you want to start the butler run? With Berry Collier who went 196-132 at Butler before leaving for Nebraska having reached the NCAA tournament 4 years in a row with the Bulldogs? Or would you like to start with Thad Matta's 1 year at butler where he went 22-10 after Collier left? Or lets start with Todd Likliter who took over and went 131-61 record over his stay leaving the team after a sweet 16 run. No lets pretend that Butler was nothing before Brad Stevens got there.

I would like to point out that in the 6 years before Matta arrived at OSU they had 4 NCAA tournament appearances, 1 conference title, 1 final four run and a 60-36 big ten record. Mind you Jim O'Brien had some payment issues to a recruit and was fired after 2 less then great years amid scandal so I'll give you half credit on this one.

I'll give you Knight and Miami (Are you referring to Jim Larranaga there? Check out his 17-16, 10th in conference 3rd year!)

Cayman has already talked about Bennett/Ryan at UW.

All in all 2.5/6 of your examples were right...
 

What if there is dirt on Pitino the public is not aware of yet? I'm not saying it's true it's just a possibility. I hope it is not true, since I believe the best course of action is to give him one more year.
 

gophmeister said:
What if there is dirt on Pitino the public is not aware of yet? I'm not saying it's true it's just a possibility. I hope it is not true, since I believe the best course of action is to give him one more year.
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If LaVelle knows the "dirt" then the Strib would know and they wouldn't hold back given their recent history. I've heard a story or two about RP that basically would turn people off but nothing scandalous. Definitely nothing winning wouldn't cure.
 

bc2211 said:
Can someone pull together some stats to see how many schools meet builtbadgers' definition of success? I appreciate the thirst for success, but I don't think that there is an adequate appreciation for the process on his end. There are circumstances at the U which make it a ****ty place to coach, why would a successful coach choose to be here? Given our status and the perception of this program (which existed well before Pitino), we will need to take chances on coaches who have shown potential and are willing to come here, and more importantly, we need to give them the time it takes I succeed in *this* environment. Not some arbitrary environment defined by an anonymous message board poster.


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Cayman said:
At least in Matta's case, in his 3 years at Xavier, he made the tournament all 3 years, won 2 conference titles, and got Xavier to their first ever Elite Eight. He has also been an amazing recruiter since he first got to Ohio State. I think I counted 9 top 50 recruits in his first four seasons, so his recruiting likely had as much, if not more, to do with his success than his coaching acumen. Pitino tried to recruit like that initially, and seemed to at least get some consideration from a handful of top players in the 2014 class like Josh Perkins, Reid Travis, and Isaiah Whitehead. Not many coaches can recruit like Thad Matta. A friend of mine is an Ohio State fan and doesn't believe Matta is a brilliant tactician, but on average he's sending about 2 players to the NBA every 3 years. When you've always got a D'Angelo Russell, or Jared Sullinger, or DeShaun Thomas, or Greg Oden, or Evan Turner on hand, you can go places.

Dick Bennett had a 47-44 record at the end of year 3 at Wisconsin, Pitino is currently at 51-51.

I think hiring Pitino was a good risk to take. Hire him after one great season at the mid-major level and hope to get in early on a hotshot up-and-comer coach. If you wait for him to win a conference title or two or make a cinderella run to the Sweet Sixteen, maybe he has better job offers than Minnesota. Was there anyone at the time who was significantly better than Pitino, or at least more of a sure thing, whom we could have likely gotten? I remember Shaka Smart's name being tossed around a lot, but he had been one of the hottest coaching candidates in the country for a couple years and could afford to wait for a great job to open up. Chris Collins seems to be doing fairly well for himself at Northwestern, though his overall record is nearly identical to Pitino's, he's just had lower highs and higher lows.
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Tim1406 said:
Virginia happened quickly? Tony Bennet was 31-31 in his first 2 seasons there. Mind you his third season he was 22-10 for an overall record of 53-41 in that stretch. Imagine if Pitino went 31-31 in his first 2 seasons at MN would he have had a 3rd?

Butler happened quickly? When do you want to start the butler run? With Berry Collier who went 196-132 at Butler before leaving for Nebraska having reached the NCAA tournament 4 years in a row with the Bulldogs? Or would you like to start with Thad Matta's 1 year at butler where he went 22-10 after Collier left? Or lets start with Todd Likliter who took over and went 131-61 record over his stay leaving the team after a sweet 16 run. No lets pretend that Butler was nothing before Brad Stevens got there.

I would like to point out that in the 6 years before Matta arrived at OSU they had 4 NCAA tournament appearances, 1 conference title, 1 final four run and a 60-36 big ten record. Mind you Jim O'Brien had some payment issues to a recruit and was fired after 2 less then great years amid scandal so I'll give you half credit on this one.

I'll give you Knight and Miami (Are you referring to Jim Larranaga there? Check out his 17-16, 10th in conference 3rd year!)

Cayman has already talked about Bennett/Ryan at UW.

All in all 2.5/6 of your examples were right...
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Quoted for the reading pleasure.

As if we needed the proof that the guy is a trolling Badger fan. Dude's been posting his agenda for a long time around here.
 

gophmeister said:
What if there is dirt on Pitino the public is not aware of yet? I'm not saying it's true it's just a possibility. I hope it is not true, since I believe the best course of action is to give him one more year.
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Maybe he forgot to check the oil in addition to not topping off the tank ?
 

Tim1406 said:
Virginia happened quickly? Tony Bennet was 31-31 in his first 2 seasons there. Mind you his third season he was 22-10 for an overall record of 53-41 in that stretch. Imagine if Pitino went 31-31 in his first 2 seasons at MN would he have had a 3rd?

Butler happened quickly? When do you want to start the butler run? With Berry Collier who went 196-132 at Butler before leaving for Nebraska having reached the NCAA tournament 4 years in a row with the Bulldogs? Or would you like to start with Thad Matta's 1 year at butler where he went 22-10 after Collier left? Or lets start with Todd Likliter who took over and went 131-61 record over his stay leaving the team after a sweet 16 run. No lets pretend that Butler was nothing before Brad Stevens got there.

I would like to point out that in the 6 years before Matta arrived at OSU they had 4 NCAA tournament appearances, 1 conference title, 1 final four run and a 60-36 big ten record. Mind you Jim O'Brien had some payment issues to a recruit and was fired after 2 less then great years amid scandal so I'll give you half credit on this one.

I'll give you Knight and Miami (Are you referring to Jim Larranaga there? Check out his 17-16, 10th in conference 3rd year!)

Cayman has already talked about Bennett/Ryan at UW.

All in all 2.5/6 of your examples were right...
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Agree on most of your points.

On Pitino getting a third year: I think Pitino would have gotten a third year pretty much regardless of what happened in the first two record-wise. I mean, he got a 4th year with that same exact winning percentage in his first 3 years. Don't know why it would have been different after 2.

On Butler: 100% correct. That thing has been building for some time. Interesting fact: Holtmann is the first guy to be HC who was not a former Butler player since before Collier.

On Larranaga: A coach earns quite a bit of leeway when he goes 29-7, wins a conference title, and makes the Sweet Sixteen all in his second season. If any coach came to MN and did that I would give them a pass on their third year. Lots of people are giving Pitino a pass on his 8-23 third year and his first two years were not nearly as good as Larranaga's first two at Miami.
 

dtrain19 said:
If LaVelle knows the "dirt" then the Strib would know and they wouldn't hold back given their recent history. I've heard a story or two about RP that basically would turn people off but nothing scandalous. Definitely nothing winning wouldn't cure.
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They might. Back when Wild goalie Josh Harding broke his foot in a fight with a teammate Russo openly said that he knew which teammate it was but refused to make that info public. Amelia didn't say anything about Norwood's creepiness until after he was fired despite the fact that she had first-hand experience with it. I know it seems like the Star Trib is in full U of M assault mode so maybe they would be less likely to hold it in now, but just pointing out that it wouldn't be the first time they kept a potentially juicy story from the public.

I don't think it is anything truly scandalous either. I've heard some things from people who have both professional and personal interaction with him, but they are more along the lines of Richard the person not really matching with the personality he tries to portray to the public. I think LaVelle and the guys were making it out to be more than it is.
 

bizzle22 said:
. ... I don't think it is anything truly scandalous either. I've heard some things from people who have both professional and personal interaction with him, but they are more along the lines of Richard the person not really matching with the personality he tries to portray to the public.
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This.

Public more often than not only gets to see the one (charismatic) side. Especially true among major-conference basketball/football coaches. A lot of power coaches in real life are dic*s to the people around them, just like the people in power in other professions.
 

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