STrib: MIAC rivals plot ouster of St. Thomas

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bizzle22 said:
Which larger schools at the D3 level suck at multiple sports?

And keep in mind, the largest schools at D3 are largely public schools that make basically no commitment to sports whatsoever. But most of the large public D3 schools are still pretty good at some sports, they just limit the amount of sports they offer and tend to be better at the ones that require more student-athletes.
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I'll let you do the research. Just go to the WIAC and see how well Wisconsin Stout or Wisconsin Platteville have done. Look at Eau Claire, Superior, etc.
If enrollment is so crucial, explain how a small school like Duke is so successful. I believe there are a handful of MIAC schools with larger enrollment.
I don't buy into the idea that enrollment is a major factor. I do accept that school wealth and resources play a significant factor.
 


MIAC champions of the 21st Century:

2018 - St. John's
2017 - St. Thomas
2016 - St. Thomas
2015 - St. Thomas
2014 - St. John's
2013 - Bethel
2012 - St. Thomas
2011 - St. Thomas
2010 - St. Thomas
2009 - St. John's
2008 - St. John's
2007 - Bethel
2006 - St. John's/Bethel
2005 - St. John's
2004 - Concordia
2003 - St. John's
2002 - St. John's
2001 - St. John's/Bethel
2000 - Bethel

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Intercollegiate_Athletic_Conference#Conference_titles

I decided to go back and look at the MIAC champions since the turn of the century. I wanted to see how successful St. Thomas was since I don't know a single thing about the MIAC. Why isn't St. John's being talked about as well? They seem to have a pretty successful football program as well.
 

In a vacuum St Thomas would seem like the perfect fit to be a non-football playing D1 basketball school like a lot of other Catholic Universities around the country. But football is the big sport now, and I think they would be very reluctant to let it go.

Moving to DII just probably gives them higher travel costs against schools their fans are less interested in playing. And with the struggles of non-Power 5 DI football teams, it's hard to see them trying to field a D1 football team.

That said, it probably be great for the Northern Sun conference to have a school in the Twin Cities that people actually cared about, not Concordia a school with a basically invisible alumni base in the area. Having schools like Duluth, St Cloud and Mankato play games against a name opponent in the Cities could really increase interest.
 

Yeah, Mac just isn't a sports school. I know several former Macalester football players and most of them probably wouldn't have been starters on most of the good local high school teams. Several chose Mac because it was really their only opportunity to play college football.
 


bizzle22 said:
It's just that St. Thomas is an odd fit with the MIAC. Much larger in terms of enrollment (and yes, that matters in D3 sports) and spend a lot more money on athletics than the other schools. The other schools have different philosophies when it comes to athletics and it is becoming increasingly clear that UST isn't a good fit. There is nothing wrong with the way UST approaches things, it just doesn't align with the rest of the conference.

Carleton, Macalester, and St. Olaf have been looking into forming an athletics conference with the other ACM schools (Luther, Grinnell, Cornell, Coe, Ripon, Lawrence, Beloit, Lake Forest, Knox, Monmouth, and Colorado College) for years and the only hold-up is that they'd have to travel 3-4 hours to most schools vs the 45 min or less commute they have to most right now. If there isn't a change made I could see the MIAC breaking up in the coming years.
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They are such an odd fit in the conference that they helped found the conference!
 

Holy Man said:
Will not happen. That conversation happens outside the university once in a while and people with no connection think its a good idea. Few if any in the university have the same idea. It's a massive undertaking in time and money that they don't, understandably, want to invest. St. Cloud, Duluth, and Mankato would be far better candidates for mid-major D-1 sports than St. Thomas.
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Spot on.
 

GG Allen said:
In a vacuum St Thomas would seem like the perfect fit to be a non-football playing D1 basketball school like a lot of other Catholic Universities around the country. But football is the big sport now, and I think they would be very reluctant to let it go.

Moving to DII just probably gives them higher travel costs against schools their fans are less interested in playing. And with the struggles of non-Power 5 DI football teams, it's hard to see them trying to field a D1 football team.

That said, it probably be great for the Northern Sun conference to have a school in the Twin Cities that people actually cared about, not Concordia a school with a basically invisible alumni base in the area. Having schools like Duluth, St Cloud and Mankato play games against a name opponent in the Cities could really increase interest.
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St Thomas has no desire to become a slightly better Concordia st paul
 

bizzle22 said:
How about becoming D2 and joining the NSIC when Augustana goes D1?

I'd bet the MIAC would be willing to keep Tommie hockey and men's soccer if it meant the rest of the UST athletic teams moving up to D2. I think they'd be successful there in many sports.

It's really more like the parents of a 24 year-old who has a good job are telling their kid it's time to move out. You can still come home to do laundry and get a good home cooked meal every now and then (aka keep your hockey and men's soccer in the MIAC), but you've outgrown us and it's time.
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Why should st Thomas make a stupid financial decision to make some other schools feel better?
 



bizzle22 said:
Because in D3 it is more about school values. It's a completely different world than D1 in that respect. D3 teams want to compete against their peers. St. Thomas isn't really comparable to the other MIAC schools in most ways. Other than location they don't have a lot in common.
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For sure, other than being one of the schools that started the conference they really don’t fit in
 

MennoSota said:
I'll let you do the research. Just go to the WIAC and see how well Wisconsin Stout or Wisconsin Platteville have done. Look at Eau Claire, Superior, etc.
If enrollment is so crucial, explain how a small school like Duke is so successful. I believe there are a handful of MIAC schools with larger enrollment.
I don't buy into the idea that enrollment is a major factor. I do accept that school wealth and resources play a significant factor.
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The D3 WIAC schools put as little financial resources as possible into their athletic programs. They are actually a good example of why enrollment matters. Some of the smallest budgets in D3. Most of their coaches aren’t even full-time. UW-Oshkosh folded their men’s soccer program a couple years ago even though it was one of the best in the region. State budget cuts forced the school to get rid of it

Duke is a D1 school which is a completely different world.
 

Some guy said:
They are such an odd fit in the conference that they helped found the conference!
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That was 100 years ago. The University of Chicago was in the B1G back then. Things change
 

Some guy said:
For sure, other than being one of the schools that started the conference they really don’t fit in
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What happened 100 years ago is irrelevant. UMD was in the MIAC and realized it was time to grow up. Time for St. Thomas to do the same
 




bizzle22 said:
What happened 100 years ago is irrelevant. UMD was in the MIAC and realized it was time to grow up. Time for St. Thomas to do the same
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You sure love spending other people’s money
 

I think that the MIAC will get a real black eye if they boot St. Thomas.

As dominating as St. Thomas has been in football, they still lost to St. Johns this year.

The story of Mount Union to me is an example of a much more glaring inequity. How does Mount Union, a much smaller school, not in the middle of a major urban market, have lower tier FCS type talent at many positions (with much less depth)? (lightning quick and fast skill players, 315 lb linemen, ect)

There has got to be something fishy happening in Alliance Ohio.
 

Swede said:
.

I respectfully disagree. Any DI jump would need to be funded by outside fundraising. St Cloud can immediately be removed from this discussion. It explored dropping football within recent memory and seems to have endless budget issues. I don't know about Duluth but I can't imagine the regents being too wild about a second DI University when the first stays afloat financially from B1G tv money. Where's Duluth's moneybag? Mankato enjoys a fieldhouse and arena funded by the Bresnan and Taylor families but other than hockey, play in front dozens of fans of lucky. Budgets are otherwise not much better than St cloud. All 3 hang their hats on DI hockey for prestige.

Mankato explored DI when the Dakota schools were transitioning but surmised the support just isn't there. In just the last year, one of the Dakota "major" papers covered the issue on light of Augie's rumored and later confirmed reclassification attempts. Mankato officials admitted to the reality that DI was a dead letter for them.

St Thomas on the other hand has robust fundraising, a relatively large alumni base nearby and geography at it's advantage. Although Big East is a stretch at least initially, I think that it could have it's choice beetween Missouri Valley and Summit League if it decided to jump. Although the present members might begrudge the advantages ST would enjoy, it would bring a stable institution and a good market into the fold.

ST could join the Pioneer League for football. Non scholly and facilities are really irrelevant.

DII has become a wierd collection of misfit schools. The NSIC is exhibit A to that statement. Larger regional universities on one hand like MSU, StCSU, and tiny crappy privates, like Mary, on the other. In that regard, ST would fit in by standing out. But if ST has to jump, why not make it a big one? For the casual and rabid ST supporter, what makes more sense? An annual game with Morris, or DI competition?

If ST gets bounced from the MIAC DI makes much more sense.
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They hired Phil Esten as their AD just recently, tons of D1 experience. This would be a 10 year or so process of going from D3 to D1. Takes tons of money to upgrade facilities to D1 level but can be done. Perfect for a west division of Big East, Marquette, DePaul, Creighton, St. Thomas. Play in Excel Arena for basketball. Play non-scholarship football like Drake.


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gregbrady said:
They hired Phil Esten as their AD just recently, tons of D1 experience. This would be a 10 year or so process of going from D3 to D1. Takes tons of money to upgrade facilities to D1 level but can be done. Perfect for a west division of Big East, Marquette, DePaul, Creighton, St. Thomas. Play in Excel Arena for basketball. Play non-scholarship football like Drake.


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Good point, and I'd say a significant one. Big Ten experience at Penn State.
Perhaps STU is the one plotting.
 


Holy Man said:
These things happen in high school all the time. Not sure I've ever seen it on the college level. Usually it's the other direction. Conferences compete to attract better teams. Seems bizarre to me. Don't all conferences have teams that float around the top most of the time in most sports? Sounds like petty jealousy. For 30 years, St. Thomas had slightly smaller enrollments but bigger than the rest, and a lot of advantages in terms of location and football was middling. No gripes then. They upgraded their coaching. Maybe all teams that hire really good coaches should get bounced from the league.
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The Lake Conference disbanded a few years ago to get Eden Prairie out of the conference, and then ended up creating the South Suburban Conference. Then the Bloomington schools left that conference to join forces with Chaska and Chan to form the Metro West. I don't like it either, especially in college. I don't know what St Thomas would do....jump to the Northern Sun. I don't get the article....what schools are the ones pushing for St Thomas to be knocked out of the conference?
 

St Bens and St Johns looks forward to Kicking the Thomies. They love the competition. This makes no sense.



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Big Ten Championship said:
St Bens and St Johns looks forward to Kicking the Thomies. They love the competition. This makes no sense.



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Yep, they'll definitely be opposed to it. The Tommie-Johnnie game brings so much life to campus in fact, aside from the Target field game, the top 5 or so highest attended DIII football games ever have been the Tommie-Johnnie game at SJU's Clemens field. SportsCenter on the road came to SJU 4 years ago for that game and the basketball games have a pretty great atmosphere as well for that rivalry. SJU would be losing a lot by not having UST.
 

Moonlight said:
Good point, and I'd say a significant one. Big Ten experience at Penn State.
Perhaps STU is the one plotting.
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Far be it from me to downplay a conspiracy, but UST also had an AD with a lot of Big Ten experience in Mark Dienhart, and his presence meant nothing as to the university attempting to go D-1. I have no idea who this Phil Esten is, but there are a lot of reasons an administrator may want to downsize. Not nearly the headaches being the most significant one.

The Big East West idea is intriguing and no doubt there are people who support the university who think this might be a great idea. The largely underpaid faculty would not likely be in that category, though. Count me in the shocked category if this speculation ever becomes reality. The transition is expensive and a major headache that I highly doubt anyone with decision making authority wants to have anything to do with. Hard for me to believe the Big East would welcome a complete newbie into their conference as well.

Last note, the myth that UST is loaded with money is a false one. It is a tuition driven, not endowment driven, institution, and while not existing hand to mouth is highly dependent on enrollment to keep its operations healthy. Recent layoffs and buyouts suggest operations needed to be trimmed. Endowments are probably near the bottom of the MIAC. They had a huge capital campaign about ten years ago that I think drives the myth, but virtually all of that went into buildings and has little to no financial impact on the day to day operations of the university.
 

ethomasp31 said:
The Lake Conference disbanded a few years ago to get Eden Prairie out of the conference, and then ended up creating the South Suburban Conference. Then the Bloomington schools left that conference to join forces with Chaska and Chan to form the Metro West. I don't like it either, especially in college. I don't know what St Thomas would do....jump to the Northern Sun. I don't get the article....what schools are the ones pushing for St Thomas to be knocked out of the conference?
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It’s very possible nobody is actually plotting to kick them out. Reusse heard a rumor and reported it as fact. It’s a column not a report after all and it doesn’t actually say anything is a fact that is finalized
 

Moonlight said:
Good point, and I'd say a significant one. Big Ten experience at Penn State.
Perhaps STU is the one plotting.
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This is not true.
St Thomas just finished top of the line d3 facilities and now they are going to start a brand new building project to make d1 facilities?
20 years of construction? This isn’t 35W
 

Holy Man said:
Far be it from me to downplay a conspiracy, but UST also had an AD with a lot of Big Ten experience in Mark Dienhart, and his presence meant nothing as to the university attempting to go D-1. I have no idea who this Phil Esten is, but there are a lot of reasons an administrator may want to downsize. Not nearly the headaches being the most significant one.

The Big East West idea is intriguing and no doubt there are people who support the university who think this might be a great idea. The largely underpaid faculty would not likely be in that category, though. Count me in the shocked category if this speculation ever becomes reality. The transition is expensive and a major headache that I highly doubt anyone with decision making authority wants to have anything to do with. Hard for me to believe the Big East would welcome a complete newbie into their conference as well.

Last note, the myth that UST is loaded with money is a false one. It is a tuition driven, not endowment driven, institution, and while not existing hand to mouth is highly dependent on enrollment to keep its operations healthy. Recent layoffs and buyouts suggest operations needed to be trimmed. Endowments are probably near the bottom of the MIAC. They had a huge capital campaign about ten years ago that I think drives the myth, but virtually all of that went into buildings and has little to no financial impact on the day to day operations of the university.
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Fine. My comment had nothing to do with perceptions of cash.
So...
Which conspiracy theory are we interested in promoting? The other one where the schools focused almost exclusively on academics are a bunch weenies?
 

Some guy said:
It’s very possible nobody is actually plotting to kick them out. Reusse heard a rumor and reported it as fact. It’s a column not a report after all and it doesn’t actually say anything is a fact that is finalized
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The meeting did occur, it was, as Reusse reported, a heated discussion, and it is unlikely to die down until the President's weigh in. Alums close to the UST athletic department are somewhere between furious and bummed out.
 

per Shooter:

Pssst: Insiders say fireworks erupted between two veteran MIAC football coaches at recent league meetings while several schools want to oust St. Thomas from the conference for a couple of reasons besides the Tommies’ athletic dominance. By the way, if St. Thomas is booted out by school presidents, sources say St. John’s will be the next target.

https://www.twincities.com/2019/04/06/3329852/

Go Gophers!!
 

UST82Gopher said:
The meeting did occur, it was, as Reusse reported, a heated discussion, and it is unlikely to die down until the President's weigh in. Alums close to the UST athletic department are somewhere between furious and bummed out.
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The meeting blowout did. No vote has occurred is my point
 


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