Start your best 5 Ben.

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Otis

Otis

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So far, this team looks awful. The biggest brightest bright spot on the team starts the game on the bench!

#freepharelpayne

Yes, he gets plenty of minutes, but why start the game at a disadvantage? Play your best five at the moment and get a better start!

Why not roll out
PG- Cooper
SG- Battle
SF- JoJ
PF- Garcia
C- Payne
This combines the best upperclassmen with the two guys consistently putting up numbers through these first few games.

I also wonder if Battles foot is still bothering him. He doesn’t look right.

Also, sticking to man on man cause that’s your favorite defense is idiotic. These guys ain’t mobile or agile enough to play it! Would be so easy to hide their limitations running a help friendly match up zone.

Zone defense would also lead to better blocking out for rebounds, in which we are horrible at limiting second chances.

Waiting for the light to turn on….
 

There is a chance that Ben isn't a very good basketball coach. I have seen nothing that makes me think he IS a good basketball. We're only 30ish games in to his career as a head coach but I still think he should be doing more. The dearth in talent is one thing but the team plays a shitty brand of basketball--just like with Pitino.
 

Otis said:
So far, this team looks awful. The biggest brightest bright spot on the team starts the game on the bench!

#freepharelpayne

Yes, he gets plenty of minutes, but why start the game at a disadvantage? Play your best five at the moment and get a better start!

Why not roll out
PG- Cooper
SG- Battle
SF- JoJ
PF- Garcia
C- Payne
This combines the best upperclassmen with the two guys consistently putting up numbers through these first few games.

I also wonder if Battles foot is still bothering him. He doesn’t look right.

Also, sticking to man on man cause that’s your favorite defense is idiotic. These guys ain’t mobile or agile enough to play it! Would be so easy to hide their limitations running a help friendly match up zone.

Zone defense would also lead to better blocking out for rebounds, in which we are horrible at limiting second chances.

Waiting for the light to turn on….
Click to expand...
Keeping PP on the bench to start the game is a coaching decision. A poor decision, imo, for the reason you cite.
Also agree on JOJ - he is learning, and he is one of the few that appears determined to make things happen. Yes, he will take lumps defensively, and he will be much better after a good dose of experience.
 

Completely agree w starters suggestion.

Payne should have been the starter from day 1. Maybe Ben had his reasons to start the season with lineup he chose, but now it’s just gotten weird/confusing.

For JOJ it would be an acknowledgement of his hard work and solidify the team’s confidence in his abilities. He is the only player on the team I feel good about penetrating from the perimeter/creating a shot. He needs to feel that confidence from the coaching staff. It’s frustrating because he often gets the ball dumped to him in late clock situations and he’s forced to manufacture tough shots. Imagine if the staff actually ran plays for him to get into isos in non-panic (late clock, double team) situations. Like, reward this dude. Help him… help you…!

Not so sure about zone suggestion. My hope with those starters is their man defense would be vastly improved. Typically playing a zone hurts you on rebounding.
 

Otis said:
So far, this team looks awful. The biggest brightest bright spot on the team starts the game on the bench!

#freepharelpayne

Yes, he gets plenty of minutes, but why start the game at a disadvantage? Play your best five at the moment and get a better start!

Why not roll out
PG- Cooper
SG- Battle
SF- JoJ
PF- Garcia
C- Payne
This combines the best upperclassmen with the two guys consistently putting up numbers through these first few games.

I also wonder if Battles foot is still bothering him. He doesn’t look right.

Also, sticking to man on man cause that’s your favorite defense is idiotic. These guys ain’t mobile or agile enough to play it! Would be so easy to hide their limitations running a help friendly match up zone.

Zone defense would also lead to better blocking out for rebounds, in which we are horrible at limiting second chances.

Waiting for the light to turn on….
Click to expand...

Because we have 2 scorers in the starting lineup. Need offense in the second unit, which PP provides coming off the bench.

Completely disagree with the zone and blocking out, typically its much more difficult to block out with a zone scheme.
 


Watched them play VT for the 1st time this week. They looked terrible. Best athlete on the bench, Battle looks like he is about 50% healthy and no flow on offense . Plus, a 6’11” center who plays like he is 6’4”. They also do not appear to have any pure shooters. Hopefully, they figure out how to gel as a team but this current group looks like they will b in the cellar of the Big.
 

Ironically, the start hasn't been this team's problem. I think Payne's been coming off the bench for his own good. He got alot of ticky tac fouls in the first couple games when refs are traditionally more whistle happy. However I do think we will see that switch to Payne once we are in the meat and potatoes of conference play. Pitino did the samething with Murphy his Freshman year. I would start Carrington over Henley personally, but the minute divide between Payne and TT and Carrington/Henley I think is right, so if guys know their roles and know when they're going in, than I don't really have a problem with it. I'd rather have guys know heir role and be prepared as oppose to how Pitino would jerk his bench around.
 

UpAndUnder43 said:
There is a chance that Ben isn't a very good basketball coach. I have seen nothing that makes me think he IS a good basketball. We're only 30ish games in to his career as a head coach but I still think he should be doing more. The dearth in talent is one thing but the team plays a shitty brand of basketball--just like with Pitino.
Click to expand...
Personally I think the coaching from Pitino to this staff has been night and day. Although I'll acknowledge it's alot easier to implement your sets with veterans than it is young guys. Seen alot more standing around this year compared to last year. Ben and Thorson haven't mixed up their D schemes as much this year either, I wonder if that's the young guys still trying to catch on. I will say TT's team defense has come along way from when Willis would point at him and tell him where to go, but he's just not physical enough and will probably be a deep bench guy next year with Evans coming in, Betts off the redshirt and if Fox can stay healthy
 

Dupreefor3 said:
Personally I think the coaching from Pitino to this staff has been night and day. Although I'll acknowledge it's alot easier to implement your sets with veterans than it is young guys. Seen alot more standing around this year compared to last year. Ben and Thorson haven't mixed up their D schemes as much this year either, I wonder if that's the young guys still trying to catch on. I will say TT's team defense has come along way from when Willis would point at him and tell him where to go, but he's just not physical enough and will probably be a deep bench guy next year with Evans coming in, Betts off the redshirt and if Fox can stay healthy
Click to expand...
What is different from Pitino to this staff offensively? They stand around, they struggle to create shots and there is no rhythm. Watching 4 guys hang out around the 3pt line when they are all bad 3pt shooters doesnt make a ton of sense to me. Or inspire a lot of confidence.

Defensively they are a mess. I at least expected high pressure defense--even if it sucked.
 



I still believe we will see more zone as the season progress's. But please not the 1-3-1 BJ has used. I get it that he likes to use our wingspan but once the ball gets into the corner it almost always turns into an easy uncontested 3 pointer. 2-3 please. I just feel that with our make-up we will not be a good D team. Too many weakness's to cover up. So mix up our D to keep the other team off balance, including some type of zone press.

BJ needs to settle on his best 5 including PP and JOJ. And put in sets and plays to utilize our strengths. We have none of that at this point. And attempt to establish an inside game, not just with PP but Battle and Garcia.

With the PU game, I would like to see us attack the hoop and hopefully get Edney in foul trouble.

The more I watch Ben's teams, the more I disagree with his O and D philosophy.
 

Holf2 said:
Completely agree w starters suggestion.

Payne should have been the starter from day 1. Maybe Ben had his reasons to start the season with lineup he chose, but now it’s just gotten weird/confusing.

For JOJ it would be an acknowledgement of his hard work and solidify the team’s confidence in his abilities. He is the only player on the team I feel good about penetrating from the perimeter/creating a shot. He needs to feel that confidence from the coaching staff. It’s frustrating because he often gets the ball dumped to him in late clock situations and he’s forced to manufacture tough shots. Imagine if the staff actually ran plays for him to get into isos in non-panic (late clock, double team) situations. Like, reward this dude. Help him… help you…!

Not so sure about zone suggestion. My hope with those starters is their man defense would be vastly improved. Typically playing a zone hurts you on rebounding.
Click to expand...
Their man defense would be egregious with that lineup. Cooper and Battle at the guard positions would be continue sieve defense and Garcia is also slow footed.

Battle is not a 2 guard. Heck is isn’t a SF with his lack of quickness. He scored well last year because he was quicker than most PFs, this year he is matching up (so far) against much more athletic / mobile SFs…and now you want to put him against more agile players (SGs)…? What would he do…post up? We know he won’t do that.
 

Rotations should be (starters / bench):
Cooper / samuels
Carrington / Henley
JOJ / Henley / Thompson (he plays like a SF and is mobile)
Battle / Garcia / Thompson/ (even JOJ in a small ball lineup)
Payne / Garcia
 

Otis said:
Why not roll out
PG- Cooper
SG- Battle
SF- JoJ
PF- Garcia
C- Payne
Click to expand...

I like how JoJ is playing and he has some pop to his game, but that starting lineup would get destroyed on D, even if you're trying to play zone.

It should be Cooper, Carrington, Battle, Garcia, and Payne, and I believe Ben is starting to have that combination on the court the most. JoJ should be the first off the bench.
 



Zone defenses are notorious for giving up offensive rebounds at a higher clip - as the name suggests, defenders have an area, not a man, so it’s less clear who they should be boxing out. There are other advantages, but it might actually make this team’s deficiencies worse.
 

We won’t look bad when our 2 shooters get their back. Dunno about FTs. Worse than terrible. They need visualization training or something.
 

Wet_Blanket_Guy said:
Rotations should be (starters / bench):
Cooper / samuels
Carrington / Henley
JOJ / Henley / Thompson (he plays like a SF and is mobile)
Battle / Garcia / Thompson/ (even JOJ in a small ball lineup)
Payne / Garcia
Click to expand...
This might work best. Shifting Battle from the 3 to the 2 is the opposite of what needs to happen. He played the 4 most of last year and was much better.
 

I’ll wait to complain about lineups when the big 10 season starts
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
I like how JoJ is playing and he has some pop to his game, but that starting lineup would get destroyed on D, even if you're trying to play zone.

It should be Cooper, Carrington, Battle, Garcia, and Payne, and I believe Ben is starting to have that combination on the court the most. JoJ should be the first off the bench.
Click to expand...
I think Garcia needs a kick in the fanny to get him going. He needs to come off the bench.
 

I think (could be wrong) that not starting Payne is about managing his minutes and trying to keep him out of early foul trouble. if Payne gets two quick fouls, then he's sitting for a big chunk of the first half.

really, who starts is not as important as the overall minutes and in-game combinations. TT has been starting but only playing 10 minutes or less most nights.

what matters is who you have on the floor when the game is on the line.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
I think (could be wrong) that not starting Payne is about managing his minutes and trying to keep him out of early foul trouble. if Payne gets two quick fouls, then he's sitting for a big chunk of the first half.

really, who starts is not as important as the overall minutes and in-game combinations. TT has been starting but only playing 10 minutes or less most nights.

what matters is who you have on the floor when the game is on the line.
Click to expand...
Not being behind from the opening tip consistently helps winning.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
I think (could be wrong) that not starting Payne is about managing his minutes and trying to keep him out of early foul trouble. if Payne gets two quick fouls, then he's sitting for a big chunk of the first half.

really, who starts is not as important as the overall minutes and in-game combinations. TT has been starting but only playing 10 minutes or less most nights.

what matters is who you have on the floor when the game is on the line.
Click to expand...
If he sits the first 5 minutes, gets two fouls in 5 minutes, then sits 10 more its 15 minutes on the bench. If he starts and gets two fouls in 5 minutes, then sits 15...its 15 minutes on the bench. Unless he is less likely to foul at the same rate by not starting?
 

Payne doesn't have the classic fouling issue that young bigs do - at least so far. I think the foul thing is not a good reason in this case- he averages 1.9 fouls in 23.5 minutes per game:
Mon 11/28@VTVTL
67-57		275-862.50-00.03-742.961311013
ACC/BIG TEN CHALLENGE PRESENTED BY CONTINENTAL TIRE
Wed 11/23vsUNLVUNLVL
71-62		131-250.00-00.00-00.05000122
SOCAL CHALLENGE
Mon 11/21vsCBUCBUW
62-61 OT		406-966.70-00.03-560.0130002315
SOCAL CHALLENGE
Thu 11/17vsCMUCMUW
68-60		182-450.00-00.00-00.04121214
Mon 11/14vsDEPDEPL
69-53		276-6100.00-00.00-00.041113512
GAVITT TIPOFF GAMES
Fri 11/11vsSFNYSFNYW
72-54		265-5100.00-00.02-2100.081001312
Mon 11/7vsWMUWMUW
61-60		141-250.00-00.01-425.05001333
TOTAL23.63.7-5.172.20.0-0.00.01.3-2.650.06.40.60.90.61.92.48.7
 

short ornery norwegian said:
I think (could be wrong) that not starting Payne is about managing his minutes and trying to keep him out of early foul trouble. if Payne gets two quick fouls, then he's sitting for a big chunk of the first half.

really, who starts is not as important as the overall minutes and in-game combinations. TT has been starting but only playing 10 minutes or less most nights.

what matters is who you have on the floor when the game is on the line.
Click to expand...
The game is on the line the whole game. 2 points at the beginning of the game counts 2 points.
 

bga1 said:
Payne doesn't have the classic fouling issue that young bigs do - at least so far. I think the foul thing is not a good reason in this case- he averages 1.9 fouls in 23.5 minutes per game:
Mon 11/28@VTVTL
67-57		275-862.50-00.03-742.961311013
ACC/BIG TEN CHALLENGE PRESENTED BY CONTINENTAL TIRE
Wed 11/23vsUNLVUNLVL
71-62		131-250.00-00.00-00.05000122
SOCAL CHALLENGE
Mon 11/21vsCBUCBUW
62-61 OT		406-966.70-00.03-560.0130002315
SOCAL CHALLENGE
Thu 11/17vsCMUCMUW
68-60		182-450.00-00.00-00.04121214
Mon 11/14vsDEPDEPL
69-53		276-6100.00-00.00-00.041113512
GAVITT TIPOFF GAMES
Fri 11/11vsSFNYSFNYW
72-54		265-5100.00-00.02-2100.081001312
Mon 11/7vsWMUWMUW
61-60		141-250.00-00.01-425.05001333
TOTAL23.63.7-5.172.20.0-0.00.01.3-2.650.06.40.60.90.61.92.48.7
Click to expand...
thats because hes not starting!! :cool:
 

Sure would like to know Bens reason for starting TT both halves. Another head scratching moment for me regarding his coaching decisions. This team needs to develop some meaningful continuity and work the starters.

My guess is TT starts against PU bring 7-0. Wonder how that will work out?
 

I said this in another thread and Ill say it here. Bens logic with this is non exsistent.

PLENTY of coaches throughout college bball over the years do not start their 5 most gifted players. Sot heres nothing wrong with Ben also doing that. Sometimes you start the glue guy to have instant offense off the bench. Or you start a great defender. Or you have a foul prone guy off the bench etc..

But starting TT over Payne has none of that logic. TT stinks and Ben himself thinks it. When a guy can only play like 10 minutes max against teams with a pulse, you are essentially saying hes an emergency situation player.

So why the hell are you setting the tone of BOTH halfs with that guy. The guy you dont run offense with and also cant defend. And really doesnt compliment the lineup. Why?? Not logical. And Payne doesnt have foul issues.
 

bga1 said:
Payne doesn't have the classic fouling issue that young bigs do - at least so far. I think the foul thing is not a good reason in this case- he averages 1.9 fouls in 23.5 minutes per game:
Mon 11/28@VTVTL
67-57		275-862.50-00.03-742.961311013
ACC/BIG TEN CHALLENGE PRESENTED BY CONTINENTAL TIRE
Wed 11/23vsUNLVUNLVL
71-62		131-250.00-00.00-00.05000122
SOCAL CHALLENGE
Mon 11/21vsCBUCBUW
62-61 OT		406-966.70-00.03-560.0130002315
SOCAL CHALLENGE
Thu 11/17vsCMUCMUW
68-60		182-450.00-00.00-00.04121214
Mon 11/14vsDEPDEPL
69-53		276-6100.00-00.00-00.041113512
GAVITT TIPOFF GAMES
Fri 11/11vsSFNYSFNYW
72-54		265-5100.00-00.02-2100.081001312
Mon 11/7vsWMUWMUW
61-60		141-250.00-00.01-425.05001333
TOTAL23.63.7-5.172.20.0-0.00.01.3-2.650.06.40.60.90.61.92.48.7
Click to expand...
its kind of a chicken or egg convo. Is he staying out of foul trouble because of the management or does he truly not have the fouling issues.
 

Battle is a stretch four Garcia I have no idea what he is built like a 5 ? Payne, Battle, Joseph is our best front court Backcourt no clue? Cooper,Carrington?
 


I like the talent on this team and think they have some great potential. However, it has become apparent that we need better (and more) guard play to maximize that potential. Looking forward I LOVE the talent we have but...we need more guards. For 2023-2024 there are several unknowns---will all/some/none of Garcia, Battle, Ihnen, and Fox be on the roster? If they all come back, do we have any scholarships available or are we 'full'?
 

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