Stadium Expansion...

[GoAUpher]

It looks like Purdue is looking to expand Ross-Ade Stadium even though they may not have the season ticket demand for it (see link here: http://collegefootball.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=916793). Since I'm worried about a similar scenario coming to pass at TCF someday (U wants to expand seating beyond the current demand) I found this interesting and am hoping that MNBoiler might be able to shed some light on the situation.

When I read the article it struck me that the AD is chasing $$$ a little bit and risks creating a Dome like issue where supply outstrips demand except for rivalry games (or a tOSU game in Purdue's case). I've wondered why IU is expanding its seating for the same reason...they already have plenty of empty seats for most home games (OSU/Purdue games being the notable exceptions) so why add more? Its clear in Purdue's case that they will make some nice extra $$$ off the 15 new suites this expansion would create, but what about the empty seats in the upper deck?

MNBoiler, what do you (and other Purdue fans) think of the expansion talk? Can you shed some light on the decision making process that Purdue has undertaken?

 

[littlebigboy]

If you have 2 games that sell 65,000 vs. 50,000 thats a million $$$$. That might be enough to help bring in better players and win more and fill the stadium.

 

[grunkiejr]

I saw it mentioned on ESPN.com today and I thought it was odd. I went to the Gophers game in West Lafayette this season and it was at least 10% below capacity, maybe more. I wouldn't think too much of it because the Gophers wouldn't necessarily register as a big game but it was their homecoming.

 

[GoAUpher]

If you have 2 games that sell 65,000 vs. 50,000 thats a million $$$$. That might be enough to help bring in better players and win more and fill the stadium.

But the other 5 home games you've got 15,000 empty seats and a poor atmosphere. Also, those extra 15,000 fans that showed up for 2 games are wearing your rivals colors. I'd rather have the U make less $$$ than have to sit through another Dome style Wisky game.

If you are a recruit I doubt 15,000 open seats or tons of opposing fans in those seats will be as impressive as a sold out smaller stadium with a great atmosphere and energy.

 

[highwayman]

But the other 5 home games you've got 15,000 empty seats and a poor atmosphere. Also, those extra 15,000 fans that showed up for 2 games are wearing your rivals colors. I'd rather have the U make less $$$ than have to sit through another Dome style Wisky game.

If you are a recruit I doubt 15,000 open seats or tons of opposing fans in those seats will be as impressive as a sold out smaller stadium with a great atmosphere and energy.

I completely agree with GoAUpher. For one, I can't believe that the extra $1.5M a season could offset the construction cost for years to come. Whenever you talk retrofit, add an extra 50% in logistic costs for those seats, unless you made them ridiculously "temporary" until the final expansion to 80,000.

I figure that 15,000 seats would cost at least $35-40 million (in future dollars), with infrastructure (electric, water, bathrooms, ADA elevators, etc.). The cost can't be offset for years. It will be a long time for expansion.

If the U were smart, they would manage their own ticket resale (call it UScalp) and make game day tickets a hot commodity. Low supply and high demand factors will guarantee increased profit far better over time than large oversupply (15,000 seats) and a small amount of extra demand.

30,000 extra tickets sold X $50 = $1.5M. Sounds like a lot, but think about costs to get you there (construction-game day labor-maintenance, etc.) and you may break even (even with extra concessions) after about 30 years.

For me, it's better to have all those ticket-hopefull Budgie and Hawkarse fans coming to town in droves, staying in our hotels, going to our restaurants and bars, filling our bowling alleys, and WATCHING THE GAME ON T.V. 'cause they can't get game-day tickets. Screw 'em.

 

[mnboiler]

Ok first let me say overall Burke has been a solid AD. But frankly I think he is off his rocker is he really thinks this is a good idea. I'm going to break each part down so I don't miss anything and if it gets long, I'm sorry

The first thing you need to realize about Purdue sports is that they play second fiddle in both major college sports in Indiana(Notre Dame football, IU basketball-roughly the same fan base by the way) which means the people who are Purdue fans have a connection with the University. Second Purdue has little to no football tradition which really hurts in recuiting, fan base etc.

The second thing you need to know is that Mackey has no premium seating, it’s from a generation(just like Williams) and it would nearly impossible to add suites so Burke might just be chasing dollars.

Now removing the current stands in the south end zone is an important thing to do because they are unsightly and overall they simply just need to go. A bonus on this would be to bring supply closer to demand thus cause ticket prices to increase, have less available tickets for other fans etc. I think that adding a second deck to the east side of Ross-Ade would be a great thing if and only if the demand is there. Right now there isn't so it is a really dumb idea. Same thing goes for the north end zone second deck.
What really needs to happen is that when they take down the south end zone stands is that they need to build a huge football complex, and do it right, meaning coaches offices, weight room, locker room, team theater, etc. Basically doing what Joe Tiller said we should do but on a much grander scale. This building was even included in Purdue's master plan that was released this week.

Overall my biggest fear is that Burke goes into the second deck thinking he has a solid plan to play for using suites to pay for it, which he will fill, but then he has a empty deck that just sits there except for when ND, tO$U, UM, and to some extent IU come to town(oh and Iowa because they travel well, TIC). I also understand why he wants a nice landscaped hill with great views of campus but there a dorm blocking the view from parts of the stadium and campus is completely out of view for the entire east side of the stadium, Purdue would be much farther ahead to build the football complex in the south end zone paying for it with premium seating(every AD's gift from God but I won't get into that unless asked) thus reducing capacity and driving up prices. Then if Purdue season ticket base hits say 95% of capacity build the second deck.

Right now there is a falicities war on in college sports and Purdue is losing mainly in football(old indoor practice field, small weight room, etc.) so if Purdue is ever going to win big they are going have to address the falicities and by simply putting a second deck on the east side isn’t going to cut it. Today’s student athlete wants their own 48” locker with all the new gadgets, they want the 100,000 sq ft weight room, they want to play in front of packed crowds and adding a second deck on the east side right now actually puts us in a worse position. If the season ticket base hits the needed levels to do it then go for it, but right now wait.
Sorry that got longer than I thought.

 

[Ski U Mah Gopher]

Boiler - send that to the West Laf. or Purdue Student paper

That is a great commentary on building for building's sake.

 

[grunkiejr]

MNBoiler--

Can you help me visualize what you're saying? I just want to gauge compass directions with the field. When I was at the game this season we sat in the Gophers section which was in a corner of one of the end zones. It was the end zone that was nearer the tailgating lots and some brick university buildings. I'm assuming that was the South end zone which would make the side I was sitting on the west sideline (I'm pretty sure the visiting team was on our side).

On a side topic, do you think there would be a lot of demand for the suites? I generally connect suites with businesses because from my experience they overwhelmingly are the ones that payt for suites. West Lafayette didn't strike me as having a big enough economy to have a ton of demand for suites. Obviously it's all about supply/demand and optimal pricing so it's not a stretch for small law firms, CPA's, etc to buy suites if the price is right but it just doesn't scream corporate suites to me like a market like Minneapolis.

I did notice they were saying things over the PA system about different ticket prices for students, faculty, and general public which I found interesting but it probably goes back to what you were saying about fans being connected to the university.

 

[Goldmember]

Seems like this is all about selling tickets to Notre Dame, Michigan, Wisconsin, Iowa and Ohio State fans rather than improving the gameday experience for Boilermaker fans. It's always sad to see a Big 10 school do that.

 

[mnboiler]

I don't have any inside info the the demand for suites but I would think a moderately priced suite would do fine here at Purdue. Lafayette-West Lafayette has roughly 150,000 people(including students) and large amount of heave manufactoring(Cat, Suberu, Tate & Lyle, Alco come to mind right away) so between those and rich family's I would guess 15 suites would go rather quickly.

I also attached a couple of photos of Purdue's campus and the stadium area the round gold building is Mackey Arena(home of Purdue Basketball) the white building in the northwest is the indoor football field. In both photos due north is straight up.

If you look just south of the stadium you can see that overall there is quite large area to actully build on. It wouldn't be a problem to put a huge lockerroom, wieght room, team theater, position rooms, a coaches suite, etc, in there and have it all paid for by premium seating if they do it right.

I couldn't tell you why we have cheaper seats for employee's, I'm assuming to fill the stadium. (Warning entering rant) But you would think a school with 40000 students between, most likely, alumii bases(Indy and Chicago) could fill a 65000 seat stadium. It's about 2 hours from the loop in Chi-town(with no traffic haha) and about a 1:15 from down town Indy. But no. I understand if you live in Chicago it would be hard to make it back for Wednesday basketball game. But with football it is roughly 7 times a year you would have to make it back to you alum mater. I know I'm a sports nut but overall suck it up and come back 7 times a year. (end rant)

Overall I just simply hope if/when they add the second deck they do it right. To many times people do it on the cheap than have something outdated in 7-13 years instead of 30-40. It will just cost more to come back and redo it again in 20 years then doing something that lasts. A prime example is that they are redoing our co-rec and they are spending about 98 million on it. I just hope they do it right or they are just shooting themselves in the foot and going to small. TCF is the same way while it seems they are doing things the right way I promise you with in a decade or so they will have to come back and change a few things here and there at maybe 1.5 times the cost it would have been to do it right the first time(brink around the edge of the field is a great example of this).

 

[SoMplsHawkI]

MN Boiler-are there plans for a $6mm boathouse?

 

[mnboiler]

First of all sorry I forgot to attach the pictures so here they are.

And second SoMlpsHawkI there are plans for a new boathouse for the crew team. There was an article about it in the student newspaper on Friday. I don't think it will cost 6 million but again I hope they do it right and spend the money they need to in order to get good product. I have a friend on the crew team here-Purdue's crew team is a club sport meaning they don't compete in NCAA events-and they are actully really good. I think he said right now they are like ranked second in the nation.

 

[SoMplsHawkI]

First of all sorry I forgot to attach the pictures so here they are.

And second SoMlpsHawkI there are plans for a new boathouse for the crew team. There was an article about it in the student newspaper on Friday. I don't think it will cost 6 million but again I hope they do it right and spend the money they need to in order to get good product. I have a friend on the crew team here-Purdue's crew team is a club sport meaning they don't compete in NCAA events-and they are actually really good. I think he said right now they are like ranked second in the nation.

I shouldn't be surprized. Just another example of the facilities 'arms' race taking place in the BT.
I too hope they get it right, with the boathouse and the stadium.

 

[mnboiler]

And getting it right takes money. So it a catch-22 no one wants to spend the extra money to do it right but then you have a crappy product. My theory is spent the money for and do it right the first time. If you do it right will last atleast 30 years if you do it on the cheap you are looking some where closer to 15-20 years then to build the new stadium you are look atleast 100% of the orginal cost plus another 15% mostly likely(for inflation and new features). Whe you are looking at 100's of millions of dollars 15% is quite a bit.

 

[ditt1605]

This totally reminds me of Indiana. Indiana felt they needed to compete with newer facilities that other schools have (sounds like Purdue does as well).

Indiana's expansion, according to wikipedia: "This will provide additional space for classrooms, a 24,000 sq. ft. weight/training room, a Hall of Fame, and expanded seating for football. The seating capacity will be around 53,500 after the completion of the expansion[4]. The expansion will be part of an overall $55 million expansion of several Indiana University athletic facilities."

I never understood why Indiana wanted to expand a stadium that barely is half full, but it sounds as if the seat expansion was just part of the deal, not the only reason. They only added 4000 seats.

As MNboiler has laid out for us, Purdue is in need of facility upgrades across the board, so hopefully they would be doing those with any expansion they do.

 

[mnboiler]

The reason is building there new end zone is for cash more than almost any other reason. Memorial Stadium has an average attendence of about 30000 people. Also there is very limited premium seating mainly suites where the big money is. So Indiana most likely doesn't make a whole ton off of football like most athletic departments need to. Also Assembly Hall has very limited premium seating choices so there isn't a hole ton of cash there either. I know a few years ago there athletic department was drowning in red ink but I think they are breaking even right now. So the new endzone will hopefully provide them a nice chuck of change to keep there department afloat.

And because ditt1605 semi called me out I sorta did steal some of the ideas I have from the "Indiana model". Purdue is addressing a bit of basketball concerns with a Mackey renovation that is mostly office space, training room, etc (the stuff that is needed to keep the department running) also they are decreasing the seating in Mackey by roughly 300 so where that will come from I don't know, most likely students sadly.

 

[ditt1605]

The reason is building there new end zone is for cash more than almost any other reason. Memorial Stadium has an average attendence of about 30000 people. Also there is very limited premium seating mainly suites where the big money is. So Indiana most likely doesn't make a whole ton off of football like most athletic departments need to. Also Assembly Hall has very limited premium seating choices so there isn't a hole ton of cash there either. I know a few years ago there athletic department was drowning in red ink but I think they are breaking even right now. So the new endzone will hopefully provide them a nice chuck of change to keep there department afloat.

And because ditt1605 semi called me out I sorta did steal some of the ideas I have from the "Indiana model". Purdue is addressing a bit of basketball concerns with a Mackey renovation that is mostly office space, training room, etc (the stuff that is needed to keep the department running) also they are decreasing the seating in Mackey by roughly 300 so where that will come from I don't know, most likely students sadly.

Not calling you out by any means, just commenting on your observation of what's needed and how they would be dumb not to make the expansion more than just about extra seats/suites. Until I actually looked it up, I honestly thought Indiana did the expansion just to get extra revenue from the 2 games they would sell out.