Souhan: The time to judge P.J. Fleck the football coach begins now

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If not now, like Soup****** says, At what point in PJ's tenure does he start to get judged by the on field performance?
 

GFBfan said:
If not now, like Soup****** says, At what point in PJ's tenure does he start to get judged by the on field performance?
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I don't think anyone doesn't think his on field performance will matter.
But it's a somewhat odd time to write it.

1. It's his second year.
2. Freshman QB whether you want to blame PJ for that or not. Still odd to be expecting Big Ten titles with a freshman QB (unless you recruited a five star, but then you need to be Alabama or Clemson to pull that off. Not a coach in his first or second year.
3. Gophers are one of a few Big Ten teams unbeaten, and have the second best non-conference victory (by some measures) of any of the Big Ten teams.

So if you're writing an article today about results, what are you going to pick apart about the 3 results so far? That's why it's odd timing to be hyper critical of the record.

Also, PJ is going to be here through 2020, most likely 2021 before he'd be at risk for losing his job.
That and the positive image he's pushing out around the football program and the high GPA, it's unlikely he's at any risk if he goes 4-8 the next two seasons.
 

GFBfan said:
If not now, like Soup****** says, At what point in PJ's tenure does he start to get judged by the on field performance?
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I give him, like any coach, 4 years. It's unfair to judge anyone less than that, subject of course, to scandal of some sort.
 

GFBfan said:
If not now, like Soup****** says, At what point in PJ's tenure does he start to get judged by the on field performance?
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I’m guessing year Pi. Since Year 1 was really Year 0, and a zero kinda looks like a circle...well you get my point. So I’m guessing somewhere around year 3.1415926. Just over 3 years but not yet 4.
 

GophersInIowa said:
I think it mainly has to do with people not liking him because of the Kill seizures article and how stupid he looked.
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Totally agree - hated that article, and generally don’t like his writing. This article though wasn’t bad.


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highwayman said:
Except for all the stupid shiite he wrote. About as unbalanced as a one-legged placekicker.



Sorry, but there is nowhere bizzarely like the planet TC columnists live on.
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LOL.


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Face The Facts said:
I don't think anyone doesn't think his on field performance will matter.
But it's a somewhat odd time to write it.

1. It's his second year.
2. Freshman QB whether you want to blame PJ for that or not. Still odd to be expecting Big Ten titles with a freshman QB (unless you recruited a five star, but then you need to be Alabama or Clemson to pull that off. Not a coach in his first or second year.
3. Gophers are one of a few Big Ten teams unbeaten, and have the second best non-conference victory (by some measures) of any of the Big Ten teams.

So if you're writing an article today about results, what are you going to pick apart about the 3 results so far? That's why it's odd timing to be hyper critical of the record.

Also, PJ is going to be here through 2020, most likely 2021 before he'd be at risk for losing his job.
That and the positive image he's pushing out around the football program and the high GPA, it's unlikely he's at any risk if he goes 4-8 the next two seasons.
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Not really an odd time considering it is the opening of the BIG season and BIG wins are really all that matter.
His first year was poor when it comes to BIG performance. Lets see if this year in the BIG will be any better.
It's starts tomorrow. Last year Maryland played their 3rd string QB and we couldn't find a way to beat them at home.
This year it is our first road game and Maryland is in turmoil after the poor performance last week and the uncertainty of the coaching staff.
We have played well in spurts during all 3 games, hope we can put a more consistent game together tomorrow and get a win.
 




Ozzy&Ray said:
Totally agree - hated that article, and generally don’t like his writing. This article though wasn’t bad.


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His articles are writhing in pain. Substantive jack@ssm.
 


Soupcan is a dink but we can absolutely be judging Fleck. The judging started last year. If some of you want to wait 4-5 years that's fine but after those years you will still be looking at his whole body of work which includes now.
 

GFBfan said:
If not now, like Soup****** says, At what point in PJ's tenure does he start to get judged by the on field performance?
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You can start now - that's fine. He's 8-7...feasted on non-conference opponents and struggled in conference. More or less like every coach we have had in the last 50 years. Factually, the recruiting arc has been better than we have seen in that time-frame (outside of one Brewster year, that we all know was flawed for various reasons) so if in 3-4 years we don't see any improvement, it is very fair to start evaluating what we have.

If I'm being honest, though, I would accept Mason/Kill success because I simply just enjoy his personality. I watch every press conference and truly enjoy his program 12 months out of the year. If and when he leaves/is fired/retires I will still love the Gophers, but I really don't think I could support a coach more fully than I do Fleck. People like Fleck, in all phases of life, are the future. Tough guy/meat-head/drill sergeants are dinosaurs.

As a football coach, I will analyze/judge Fleck fairly. But as a man and personality, I am biased and will continue to root for his success. Kind of the same philosophy I hold towards Elon Musk. He is not above being criticized, but he is the best hope for humanity...much like Fleck is the best hope for our local university. If P.J. Fleck cannot lead us to greatness, I'm not sure anybody can.
 



bleedsmaroonandgold said:
Any coach? With Brewster we made the call after 3.5.
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That's true but I didn't make that call. I would have let him finish out the year. Not sure firing him when we did really accomplished much as no guarantee they wouldn't have beat Iowa with him still running things. Just my standard though.
 

In all honesty, Souhan does have a balanced approach to his article, but his egotism and well developed critical orifice gets in the way of his delivery. It is like he cooks a nice filet mignon for you, but he ruins it by overcooking it.

There is no guarantee that the Gophers will get to the promised land with PJ Fleck as it appears the level of competition in the B1G West has improved which is great. When he does the victory will be that much sweeter.
 

bottlebass said:
Soupcan is a dink but we can absolutely be judging Fleck. The judging started last year. If some of you want to wait 4-5 years that's fine but after those years you will still be looking at his whole body of work which includes now.
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I understand what you're saying but not sure it's true. This is a what have you done for me lately society it seems. If we go 3-9 this year but 8-4 and 9-3 the next two years, nobody is going to care about this year's 3-9 record.
 

TNGophfan said:
I understand what you're saying but not sure it's true. This is a what have you done for me lately society it seems. If we go 3-9 this year but 8-4 and 9-3 the next two years, nobody is going to care about this year's 3-9 record.
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Agree. People criticize Gen Y and Gen Z for wanting instant gratification, well it’s true for many older fans. Last year’s team had significant talent issues and there marked is improvement in that area this year but much of that talent is young. Also helpful to get upperclassmen healthy and transfers now eligible to play. We’ll see if Fleck makes progress in the Big 10 portion of play but so far the team looks a lot better on the field.
 

TNGophfan said:
I understand what you're saying but not sure it's true. This is a what have you done for me lately society it seems. If we go 3-9 this year but 8-4 and 9-3 the next two years, nobody is going to care about this year's 3-9 record.
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People will if we go back to 5-7 and 4-8 after those good seasons. They will see 2 good seasons and 4 bad seasons.
 

GopherHomer said:
You can start now - that's fine. He's 8-7...feasted on non-conference opponents and struggled in conference. More or less like every coach we have had in the last 50 years. Factually, the recruiting arc has been better than we have seen in that time-frame (outside of one Brewster year, that we all know was flawed for various reasons) so if in 3-4 years we don't see any improvement, it is very fair to start evaluating what we have.

If I'm being honest, though, I would accept Mason/Kill success because I simply just enjoy his personality. I watch every press conference and truly enjoy his program 12 months out of the year. If and when he leaves/is fired/retires I will still love the Gophers, but I really don't think I could support a coach more fully than I do Fleck. People like Fleck, in all phases of life, are the future. Tough guy/meat-head/drill sergeants are dinosaurs.

As a football coach, I will analyze/judge Fleck fairly. But as a man and personality, I am biased and will continue to root for his success. Kind of the same philosophy I hold towards Elon Musk. He is not above being criticized, but he is the best hope for humanity...much like Fleck is the best hope for our local university. If P.J. Fleck cannot lead us to greatness, I'm not sure anybody can.
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It’s fine if you really, really like PJ’s personality but I don’t understand the bolded at all. The coaches that have succeeded in CFB, the ones that have built programs, are generally those mean, gruff, “drill sergeant” types you apparently dislike. Off the top of my head I can’t recall any “showman”-type
personalities that have built programs at the power 5 level. Perhaps the closest would be Pete Carroll but he had the luxury of being at a blue blood. I’m not saying PJ won’t succeed and I obviously hope he does but there are some truisms about human behavior and psychology and how to pull maximum performance out of people. Being nice/ positive reinforcement isn’t always the answer.
 

As far as local media goes, It's the radio and newspaper guys who will comment negatively and go out of their way to disparage Gopher football. The TV guys and gals will do a story when things are going okay, but won't say anything or do anything when things are not going well...they'll mention the score and comment that they did not look good, which would be a fair comment, and they move on. Nothing negative, just a quick blurb.
I think the local TV folks don't want to get too hyped up when things are looking up. They're a little cautious and don't want to stick their necks out and face ridicule if things go south fast. The newspaper/radio guys don't care, and will never admit they were wrong. They have no soul.
 

My main objection to the article is that Souhan didn't really add anything new. Everything he said is true, but it kind of falls into the "duh" category.

As for people who think he is cherry-picking the "year zero" thing to rip on Fleck for, Fleck has no one to blame but himself. That is a patently absurd shtick, and Fleck has continued to double down on it after being ripped.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
It’s fine if you really, really like PJ’s personality but I don’t understand the bolded at all. The coaches that have succeeded in CFB, the ones that have built programs, are generally those mean, gruff, “drill sergeant” types you apparently dislike. Off the top of my head I can’t recall any “showman”-type
personalities that have built programs at the power 5 level. Perhaps the closest would be Pete Carroll but he had the luxury of being at a blue blood. I’m not saying PJ won’t succeed and I obviously hope he does but there are some truisms about human behavior and psychology and how to pull maximum performance out of people. Being nice/ positive reinforcement isn’t always the answer.
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Valid response - truly. My only counter is that maybe PJ is ahead of his time, and the reason we haven't seen evidence is because people are afraid of thinking outside the box (although I don't think Dabo Sweeney and James Franklin are too far off from being "Fleck-like." Much better situations for sure, but they have both elevated their programs). My statement about personalities within coaching is, admittedly, a prediction/opinion. I could end up being wrong. Time will tell. I hope I am correct, however, as it will be better for society and the Gophers. Cheers - Ski U Mah!
 

The fact that this is now past 50 posts, means Souhan exactly did his job.

It was a pure opinion piece. He can say anything he wants, with as little data or intelligence as he wants. It's supposed to be a talker. Supposed to rile people, perhaps.

Mission accomplished. If you really, really wanted to stick it to him ... you'd pretend the article was never written!
 

Gophers_4life said:
The fact that this is now past 50 posts, means Souhan exactly did his job.

It was a pure opinion piece. He can say anything he wants, with as little data or intelligence as he wants. It's supposed to be a talker. Supposed to rile people, perhaps.

Mission accomplished. If you really, really wanted to stick it to him ... you'd pretend the article was never written!
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Nah his job is to get clicks for whatever website he writes for. I doubt very many people from here clicked.
 

Face The Facts said:
Here's my point about the Twin Cities media.
When a team is middle of the road (or even when good or bad) as a columnist, you have three options on how to write an article. Positively, negatively, or simply fact based with no opinion.

The Twin Cities media for about 40 years (other than Sid) has routinely been on negative side / cheap shot side of Gopher football.
Meanwhile, if you look at the Vikings coverage, it's largely glowing continuously, even just 2-3 weeks prior to a head coach firing. Media in general was hesitant to even rip Ponder until he was benched, but goofballs like Souhan don't have a floor for what they'll dig up to find a way to rip the Gophers. (not that it's ever been a difficult task).

They've essentially been lazy and grabbed on repeatedly to the items that can be used to rip the Gophers vs digging just a bit to find something positive to write about.
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Lowly Buffalo 27-0 over the un-daunted Vikings.

Let's see Souhan what SOuhan has to write about.
 

hungan1 said:
Lowly Buffalo 27-0 over the un-daunted Vikings.

Let's see Souhan what SOuhan has to write about.
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+1. As a vikes fan I'm for one am done with Zimmer and Spielman losing this badly to a terrible team at home.


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CentralGopher said:
+1. As a vikes fan I'm for one am done with Zimmer and Spielman losing this badly to a terrible team at home.


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It's one loss...I'm sure the fact that they choked against an arch rival and have an early game against many who would consider the best team in the NFC on Thursday night had nothing to do with it? You might be right for sure...you might be wrong, we don't know yet. I hope you don't think about it that way with the Gophers. They got their butts whooped but had a tough time with Nick's death, lets see what happens in the next few weeks. There is a reason upsets happen...you can't just show up and get a W.
 

hello-world said:
No other city drags their college coaches the way 1500 ESPN and the Strib do in Minneapolis.
It's not that they need to be pro-PJ, but writing 'it's time to judge PJ' when he has a team full of Freshman is lame.

Write a Maryland primer, a player bio, or a puff-piece.
I'm way more likely to read that than the Strib's muckracking garbage.

Sports don't need to be a constant scandal, especially when there is no scandal to report, and Souhan is just trying to stir up trouble.
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WHAT?!?!

Go read the Detroit Free Press or the Omaha World Herald. They have absolutely railed on their coaches who have produced results much better than the Gophers.

Fleck and the Gophers Football Program needs to earn respect, and that respect has not been earned in recent history.
 

Money doesn't necessarily buy you championships. It is coaching and paying attention to real time talent. Not what they've accomplished the previous year.
 

It's interesting that so much of the discussion around Fleck has to do with his personality and his public persona - not necessarily with Coaching and/or recruiting.

Yeah, there have been discussions about other coaches - Mason's perceived aloofness; Kill's "Country Jer" shtick; Claeys' laid-back personality; etc. But with Fleck, the personality issues seem to be more front-and-center - to the extent that some people put his personality above the record in judging Fleck as a coach.

As I have said, Fleck is not my cup of tea. I'll live with it if the team wins. But, to be clear - my personal feelings about Fleck mean that I will give him less rope than another coach that I might be more personally in tune with. For this season, I would like to see at least 6 wins and some kind of a bowl game. I can live with that.
 

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