Some Coaches in Year 1

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howieramone said:
Doc, so true. I just talked to your friend GopherLady and they are changing the question you must answer to become a member to: Have you ever played a competitive sport besides video games?
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This is like the Pot calling the Kettle black
 


Here are some other records of first year head coaches. I get the gist of the OP, have patience, but it's ok to win immediately also.
First year Jim Boeheim-26-4
First year Rick Barnes 20-10
First year Denny Crum 26-5
First year Tom Davis 21-6
First year Mark Few 26-9
First year Steve Fisher NCAA Championship
First year Don Haskins 18-6
First year Hank Iba 31-0
First year Bob Knight 18-8 at Army
First year Ray Meyer 19-5
First year Lute Olson 24-2
First year Jerry Tarkanian 24-5
 

bemidjigopher said:
Oh please did you expect to have Pitino come in and build relationships with those recruits that others built for years and by rumors you mean guy fawkes on Jarvis. Here I'll start a rumor just as credible, WE ARE THE FRONT RUNNERS FOR ELIJIH THOMAS, he wants to move here to be with his girlfriend. See anyone can say something on a message board and sound legit, while being full of ****!
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No....I don't know who Guy Fawkes is....it's something I heard not from anyone on Gopherhole. I heard this last fall when I and most everyone else was saying that Jarvis was a lock for the Gophers. I heard it from someone who probably had/has good information. I'm not saying he won't come here, because I hope he does and I still think we have a decent shot, but it definitely is not a lock that I thought it was at the time and surprised me.

As far as not being able to build relationships with those recruits. I think everyone on here thought that Travis was going to announce he was going to announce he was going to Minnesota that day. We also thought that we were front runners for Macura, and he committed somewhere else pretty quickly. Something happened to where we weren't in Vaughn's final 5 teams. All those things raise eyebrows. Am I saying Pitino won't be successful or it was his fault? No!!!!!! But he is going to have to start keeping the best players in Minnesota home and he is going to need some help from Nanne to improve our facilities drastically. The reason Tim Miles and Nebraska are ahead of us as a program is because they have made a commitment with top rate facilities.

One last thing about relationships.....Tubby came in here and got Williams and White right away. He also got Mbakwe to come back and possibly Nolen as well (I'm not sure about the timing of Nolen). The point is, Tubby showed me right away he could get those top 50 recruits to stay home when he signed Williams and White. Pitino hasn't done that yet, hopefully he will. Now, we had legal troubles with White and Mbakwe and injuries to Nolen and Mbakwe that kept us from having the most successful stretch of Gopher basketball since the late 80's to mid 90's (it might have still been our most successful stretch from that time but it didn't live up to expectations). Teague wanted to bring in his own guy. I don't blame him one bit considering how toxic the situation was with the attitude surrounding the Gopher basketball program. His guy is Pitino who I will support longer than 98% of the people on Gopherhole based on history.

The point of this is that coaches first year records and whether they ended up having successful coaching careers or not doesn't have a correlation on how Pitino will do at Minnesota. I'm sorry but we can't make a prediction on how Pitino will do based on other coaches first years. What will matter is if we can make improvements to our facilities and if Pitino can get the best players in Minnesota to play at the U.
 

bemidjigopher said:
I believe Clem the Gem went 2-16 in his first year at the U, 4-14 in year two, he had a pretty good run here
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I don't know if you were around at that time or not.....but Clem came into a totally different situation. We were playing games the year before with 5 guys and reserves we took from the football team. We almost played whole games with 5 guys the year before Clem came to the U.
 


ethomasp31 said:
The point of this is that coaches first year records and whether they ended up having successful coaching careers or not doesn't have a correlation on how Pitino will do at Minnesota. I'm sorry but we can't make a prediction on how Pitino will do based on other coaches first years. What will matter is if we can make improvements to our facilities and if Pitino can get the best players in Minnesota to play at the U.
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Facilities I can agree with. Minnesota kids -- could care less where they are from once they are Gophers. Clearly I'm in the minority on that point. We love our Minnesota connections here.
 

Gopherguy0723 said:
This is for GuyFawkes and everyone else on the ledge who need to take a step back.

Billy Donovan went 13-17 in year one at Florida with a 5-11 SEC record.
Rick Pitino went 17-14 in year one at Providence with a 7-9 record in the Big East. He went 14-14 in year one at Kentucky with a 10-8 record in the SEC.
Mike Krzyzewski went 17-13 in year one at Duke with a 6-8 record in the ACC.
Roy Williams went 19-12 in year one at Kansas with a 6-8 record in the Big Eight.
Tom Crean went 15-14 in year one at Marquette with an 8-8 record in Conference USA.
Jim Calhoun went 9-19 in year one at Connecticut with a 3-13 record in the Big East.

Take some xanax guys. With the exception of Crean, these are some of the best coaches in college basketball in the last 25 years. I think you'd be surprised at how badly some of these coaches performed in years 2 and 3.

This instant gratification generation of 20-somethings can be really pathetic.
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This is all well and good, and Pitino deserves time. But none of the guys on this list took over a team taht even made the NCAA tournament, let alone won a game. This team is not as bad as a typical team that goes through a coaching change. If Pitino deserves credit for getting this team to play above their heads early in the season (he does) he also gets blame for their collapse. And he will get credit again for the way they rally this week and secure a bid (we can hope.)
 

howeda7 said:
If Pitino deserves credit for getting this team to play above their heads early in the season (he does) he also gets blame for their collapse.
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When February collapses happened under the previous regime, it was all the head coach's fault. When it has happened again this year under a new regime, it's all the players' fault. Interesting.
 

Well I certainly hope no one is not willing to give him a lot more time at this point. My whole point is that we can't predict how well Pitino will do at the U based on how other coaches, good or bad did in their first year. I wasn't trying to say Pitino shouldn't get more time, I'm willing to give him plenty of time. Hopefully he will bring us to Final 4's in the future.
 



golfing18now said:
Facilities I can agree with. Minnesota kids -- could care less where they are from once they are Gophers. Clearly I'm in the minority on that point. We love our Minnesota connections here.
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The point is when you have the some top 100 players those should be gets you get to play at Minnesota. I don't think Pitino would argue that it is important to get the best Minnesota kids.
 

howeda7 said:
This is all well and good, and Pitino deserves time. But none of the guys on this list took over a team taht even made the NCAA tournament, let alone won a game. This team is not as bad as a typical team that goes through a coaching change. If Pitino deserves credit for getting this team to play above their heads early in the season (he does) he also gets blame for their collapse. And he will get credit again for the way they rally this week and secure a bid (we can hope.)
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Nope. You're wrong. Kansas made the tournament the year before Williams took over. They were a six seed.

You're also wrong about assigning blame and credit because the perception of the team was off. They were never as good as you thought they were. What you witnessed was a small sample size of a team that hadn't been scouted thoroughly by Big Ten teams. Moreover, the team lacks depth of any kind, and these are mostly Tubby's players. They aren't tough players mentally. A new coach won't change that.
 

ethomasp31 said:
The point is when you have the some top 100 players those should be gets you get to play at Minnesota. I don't think Pitino would argue that it is important to get the best Minnesota kids.
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I don't disagree that Pitino and virtually every other Division I coach will say, "we need to protect our borders." By saying that, I call into question my very point. But I would argue that is partially coach speak that rallies the fan base more than anything. This year was an exceptionally good year talent wise in Minnesota. An exception.....not a talent pool that Pitino could draw from on a yearly basis. Michigan is going to win the Big Ten title this year with three kids from Michigan on its roster (none of its key players). We need talent, regardless of where its from.
 

dpodoll68 said:
When February collapses happened under the previous regime, it was all the head coach's fault. When it has happened again this year under a new regime, it's all the players' fault. Interesting.
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Actually this makes perfect sense. If 2 different coaches both have the same results then it likely wasn't the coaches fault. It was the players. However, the coach is still at fault if he was the one to recruit the players that failed.

Of course 2 coaches isn't a large sample size but the idea of a controlled experiment is there.
 



Gopherguy0723 said:
these are mostly Tubby's players
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Guys in the rotation:

Mathieu
An. Hollins
Au. Hollins
Smith
Osenieks
King
Walker
Eliason
McNeil

Five Tubby recruits and four Pitino recruits. "Mostly" is technically correct, but nearly half of the guys who play any significant amount are Pitino recruits. The Teflon that's been sprayed on Pitino is amazing. I will also love it when you guys eventually turn (you always do) and he's ripped mercilessly after he fails to meet your outsized expectations.

Oh wait, you won't see this - I'm on your ignore list. As if anyone cares.
 

dpodoll68 said:
When February collapses happened under the previous regime, it was all the head coach's fault. When it has happened again this year under a new regime, it's all the players' fault. Interesting.
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Tubby had three years in a row of those conference collapses. 7-21 from 2/1 to the end of those seasons. That's more interesting.
 

dpodoll68 said:
Guys in the rotation:

Mathieu
An. Hollins
Au. Hollins
Smith
Osenieks
King
Walker
Eliason
McNeil

Five Tubby recruits and four Pitino recruits. "Mostly" is technically correct, but nearly half of the guys who play any significant amount are Pitino recruits. The Teflon that's been sprayed on Pitino is amazing. I will also love it when you guys eventually turn (you always do) and he's ripped mercilessly after he fails to meet your outsized expectations.

Oh wait, you won't see this - I'm on your ignore list. As if anyone cares.
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Ignoring the three Tubby recruits that weren't good enough to crack this line-up is a little convenient for your argument. I think you still need to include them in the tally. Also not acknowledging that these were all April recruits for Pitino is a little convenient too.

But you are right about the February swoon. Tubby would be getting blasted if this happened last year, and truthfully it did and he was. That being said....the tone of this board toward Pitino will change significantly if this happens in year six.
 

Mulligan said:
Tubby had three years in a row of those conference collapses. 7-21 from 2/1 to the end of those seasons. That's more interesting.
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And the collapse this time happened because our best player was hurt. That excuse is ok to use for this coach. When the previous coach had his best players (multiple) out for extended periods of time, that could not be used as an excuse. You have to win with the players on the roster - unless they're the previous coach's recruits, and unless the coach is still under a grace period with the fans. Then injury excuses are ok.
 

dpodoll68 said:
And the collapse this time happened because our best player was hurt. That excuse is ok to use for this coach. When the previous coach had his best players (multiple) out for extended periods of time, that could not be used as an excuse. You have to win with the players on the roster - unless they're the previous coach's recruits, and unless the coach is still under a grace period with the fans. Then injury excuses are ok.
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Excuses are good only for the ones making them. Blame is good only for the ones making them.

Put all blame on me, GopherHolers, because I, yes I, am a poor excuse.
 

Gopherguy0723 said:
Nope. You're wrong. Kansas made the tournament the year before Williams took over. They were a six seed.

You're also wrong about assigning blame and credit because the perception of the team was off. They were never as good as you thought they were. What you witnessed was a small sample size of a team that hadn't been scouted thoroughly by Big Ten teams. Moreover, the team lacks depth of any kind, and these are mostly Tubby's players. They aren't tough players mentally. A new coach won't change that.
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Fair enough, I was wrong on Kansas. The general statement remains true, this team is not as bad as most that go through a coaching change.

The pereption of this team was not way off by most. Some may have gotten overly optimisic but most kept reasonable expectations (winning 9 B1G games and making the NCAA tournament was not an unreasonable expectation). That said, there's no excuse for losing at home to a bad Illinois team, and there's no excuse for getting outscored 46-15 over a 19 minute period by anyone, certainly not an above-avergage OSU team. A chunk of that blame falls on the coaches. Period. No one's calling for thier heads, just a willingness to take off the glasses realize they're not perfect.
 

golfing18now said:
We need talent, regardless of where its from.
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Agreed. I don't care if a kid hails from Turkey if he can play. Also, the fact that a kid comes from Minnesota is no guarantee that he'll remain with the program throughout his eligibility (e.g., Royce White and Joe Coleman). Obviously, the big three this year didn't entertain attending the U very seriously so I would say that the time and attention spent recruiting them would have been better spent elsewhere.
 

golfing18now said:
I don't disagree that Pitino and virtually every other Division I coach will say, "we need to protect our borders." By saying that, I call into question my very point. But I would argue that is partially coach speak that rallies the fan base more than anything. This year was an exceptionally good year talent wise in Minnesota. An exception.....not a talent pool that Pitino could draw from on a yearly basis. Michigan is going to win the Big Ten title this year with three kids from Michigan on its roster (none of its key players). We need talent, regardless of where its from.
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No one ever said this has to be like the old hockey Gophers where they only recruited Minnesota kids....but you need to be hitting on most of the Minnesota kids...the Macura's, Vaughn's, Travis's, Jarvis Johnson's, Coffey's, and Illikainen's. The talent of Minnesota basketball is way better than you think. I'm not saying you have to have a Minnesota kid every year, but if you want to sustain a successful program you have to keep the majority of the bests ones in state.
 

ethomasp31 said:
No one ever said this has to be like the old hockey Gophers where they only recruited Minnesota kids....but you need to be hitting on most of the Minnesota kids...the Macura's, Vaughn's, Travis's, Jarvis Johnson's, Coffey's, and Illikainen's. The talent of Minnesota basketball is way better than you think. I'm not saying you have to have a Minnesota kid every year, but if you want to sustain a successful program you have to keep the majority of the bests ones in state.
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Perhaps you are right and I'm not giving enough credit to the kids from Minnesota. But when looking back over the last 20/25 years of Gopher basketball, all the really high end difference makers came from elsewhere (Jackson/Burton/Newbern/Lenard/Coffey). Obviously there are exceptions (McHale/Humphries/others).

The last thing that I would ask....how should I view the Jones decision to go to a tradition-rich program like Duke, or Travis considering Stanford a better fit academically, or a kid that maybe just wants to go try a different part of the country? Is that a failure of the program? Is that a betrayal by the kid to this State? Or maybe we shouldn't "expect" kids to stay home but really look for high-end talent that wants to be here?

ethomasp31 -- I'm not trying to single you out, because many others feel the same way as you on this issue. I just have always felt that a hometown kid might get you in the door in recruiting, but it's an unfair expectation on any coach to land "a majority" of hometown kids when so many other things are in play.
 

golfing18now said:
Perhaps you are right and I'm not giving enough credit to the kids from Minnesota. But when looking back over the last 20/25 years of Gopher basketball, all the really high end difference makers came from elsewhere (Jackson/Burton/Newbern/Lenard/Coffey). Obviously there are exceptions (McHale/Humphries/others).
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Let's also remember that programatic success did not follow Humphries' one year tenure here.

McHale came from a different era when top players outside of hot metro areas often remained local because they weren't well known outside their regions. Modern technology, elite camps, and AAUs changed that. That's why you have top players from Iowa now going to places like UNC and Kansas instead of being Hawkeyes or Cyclones. If McHale had come out of high school in this century, there's a good chance that Minnesota wouldn't landed him either. Heck, look at Cole Aldrich. He was surely no Kevin McHale.
 

golfing18now said:
Ignoring the three Tubby recruits that weren't good enough to crack this line-up is a little convenient for your argument. I think you still need to include them in the tally. Also not acknowledging that these were all April recruits for Pitino is a little convenient too.

But you are right about the February swoon. Tubby would be getting blasted if this happened last year, and truthfully it did and he was. That being said....the tone of this board toward Pitino will change significantly if this happens in year six.
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Precisely.....most notably the mention of year 6.

BTW The 19th hole is my favorite.
 


cjbfbp said:
Let's also remember that programatic success did not follow Humphries' one year tenure here.

McHale came from a different era when top players outside of hot metro areas often remained local because they weren't well known outside their regions. Modern technology, elite camps, and AAUs changed that. That's why you have top players from Iowa now going to places like UNC and Kansas instead of being Hawkeyes or Cyclones. If McHale had come out of high school in this century, there's a good chance that Minnesota wouldn't landed him either. Heck, look at Cole Aldrich. He was surely no Kevin McHale.
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McHale was not that highly regarded coming out of high school. Steve Ligenfelter(Bloomington) was more highly regarded. Ligenfelter stayed two years at the U then transferred to SDSU.
 

dpodoll68 said:
And the collapse this time happened because our best player was hurt. That excuse is ok to use for this coach. When the previous coach had his best players (multiple) out for extended periods of time, that could not be used as an excuse. You have to win with the players on the roster - unless they're the previous coach's recruits, and unless the coach is still under a grace period with the fans. Then injury excuses are ok.
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With you it's always the question of is Tubby the victim or have you been somehow wronged? Yes, people will turn on Pitino if the results are not there. It's already started to happen if you haven't noticed. Tubby got his grace period also. And, by the way, I along with many others excused Tubby because Nolen was injured, White was an idiot, Joseph was selfish, Mbakwe got hurt, Cobbs got homesick, D.J.'s sister got sick, etc. He had a hell of a lot of support. But that doesn't fit with your narrative of you being right while everyone else is wrong.
 

Mulligan said:
It's already started to happen if you haven't noticed.
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Where? Not here. Pitino is still the Golden Boy, despite failing in February just like Tubby "always" did.

Mulligan said:
But that doesn't fit with your narrative of you being right while everyone else is wrong.
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I've espoused that narrative exactly nowhere. There are plenty of people who see the hypocrisy. I'm just the most vocal, and there are a lot more hypocrites on this topic than those willing to call them out on it.
 

There is no hypocrisy. If this is happening under Pitino in Year 6, then it is a different conversation as stated by others on this thread.
 


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