Similar programs - different directions - IA and MN

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CedarRapidsGopher

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I was born and raised in Minnesota. Lived there for 40+ years. Graduated from the U. Had to move to Iowa about 4 years ago. I have received full scale information overload on the Hawks since being here. Until you've experienced it, you just cannot believe the difference between a school like MN, with a large metropolitan area and professional sports, and IA. However, I believe the only major outcome that comes from this difference is it seems MUCH easier for IA to keep it's top talent ( a couple of kids per year). These kids grow up wanting to be Hawkeyes. There's nothing else here so all they know is yellow and black.

However, it seems that both schools largely recruit the same type of kids. Neither program seems to be the kind to attract multiple 4 and 5 star talent. It seems that a natural conclusion is that the teams are likely manned by very similar players, athletically. What I cannot understand is the very different product that ends up on the field each week.

Iowa has certainly had its share of setbacks this year. They lost their starting tailback and had to replace with true freshmen...lost their starting TE for much of the season...lost their top lineman for much of the season...their QB starts virtually everygame by making a few poor plays...they trail at the half of nearly every game...yet they compete and are 7-0.

I got to experience another Iowa victory over Penn State this year. When our Gophers went and played virtually the same team, they were completely outplayed. They did not even compete, there was no fight in that team.

I am a Gopher fan in Iowa and can never be a Hawkeye fan (unless they are playing WI). But I want our program to begin to exhibit the proper attitude every game. Whether or not Coach Brew and his staff can do this, I do not know. What I do know is that the raw materials are there to expect similar outcomes to this IA program. I hope to see a vastly different team this weekend vs OS.
 

I would absolutely LOVE to beat Wisconsin and Penn State on the road in the same season like Iowa has this year. I can only tip my hat in envy to Iowa for that.

While Ferentz has had a couple of mediocre years during his tenure, there is no doubt that he has built a very nice and successful program that I am envious of. UW did it in the 90s, Iowa has done it from 2001 on.

I can't wait for our turn!

Go Gophers!!
 

Agree with most of what you said. It's a lot easier for them to keep their in-state guys because almost everyone grows up hawkeye fans around here. Having no major professional sports here is really big in that sense.
 

Iowa cares deeply about their program. Minnesota does not. There are a variety of reasons for both but really this is all you need to know.
 



The major difference between the teams that Minnesota and Iowa fields is that Iowa seems to always be dominant on the offensive and defensive lines. I'm not sure if its coaching emphasis, strength and conditioning, or the ability to find high schoolers who fit what they are trying to do but it seems like year in and out that is the major strength of their team.
 

Although I do watch them and this season has been fun, I wouldn't be too upset if the Vikings bolted for LA. I also think Iowa has been able to identify and keep the right coach. There is a continuity to their program we don't have. Look at how many coaches, venues, and systems we've had versus Iowa's since the two schools used to have those great games in the 60's. Hell, just look at how many changes Brewster has made in philosophies alone in just three years.

I hope Brewster is the answer because I really don't want the whole thing blown up with another start in a couple of years.
 

With constructiion of the Bank, seems...

as if the U, State and alums have begun to care again.
 

The Iowa coaching staff firmly believes it all starts up front with the lines. The Iowa strength coach is one of the best in the business at bringing in 6'6'' 230lbs tight ends and building them into monstrous tackles. I think to be successful year in and year out you have to put an added emphasis on the o-line. They are the difference between a 6-6 team and an 8-4 team. Minnesota will not be successful regularly until this happens.
 



I strongly disagree. Both programs are heading in the same direction. It's just that Iowa has gone from a mid-tier to upper-tier team over the last few seasons, while we have gone from lower-tier to mid-tier.

Winnipegopher said:
Iowa cares deeply about their program. Minnesota does not. There are a variety of reasons for both but really this is all you need to know.
Click to expand...

Having a $288.5 million on-campus stadium, the 2nd highest recruiting budget in the Big Ten, and a myriad of other developments indicate that this is not the case.

mittens22 said:
I think to be successful year in and year out you have to put an added emphasis on the o-line.
Click to expand...

QFT. I would also add "and d-line" to the end of this sentence.
 

I agree with dpodoll68 in that both programs are moving in the same direction. We clearly are not at the same place as Iowa is but I personally think we have improved a lot over the last few years as has Iowa. They started from a better position.

To me the biggest difference between Iowa and Minnesota is OL play. I'm happy to see a coach like Davis here to work with our OL and I'm also happy to see that Brewster has made a commitment to recruiting OL this year. OL is the unit that takes the longest to develop so I'm not optimistic that we'll get there quickly but if we can build what Wisconsin & Iowa have with their OL we will actually be able to be competitive with anyone in the conference. The common denominator in all of our wins this year is 100 yards rushing...the common denominator in all of our losses is less than 60 yards rushing.

The best thing a good OL does is it makes skill position players more interchangable and makes it appear that teams can reload. In my view, when DI caliber players have time to make throws, run routes, or hit holes they make plays. A guy like Maroney can make bigger things happen than a back like Amir Pinnix but both look like stars when they have holes to run through. It is great to recruit 4-star skill players (like Maroney) but with a good OL your team can still be successful with lesser quality backs. Just think back to the game against MSU in 2005 when Maroney & Russell went down injured in the first half...Amir Pinnix ended up rushing for more than 200 yards because our OL dominated the Spartans.
 

I am hopeful that the two of you are correct, that we are headed in the right direction. What gets discouraging is the number of games we get into where we do not compete. The game against PS is a blatant example from this year, IA and MI last year.

It almost appears as if we are merely stable, in the middle of the conference. Perhaps given the influx of higher rated prospects and a new facility to help maintain that influx, all that is required is some staff continuity to help insure we are headed in the right direction.
 

While I agree in general with the context of your post, I feel the need to dispel this myth about Iowa recruiting (and Wisconsin recruiting as well). The general consensus among posters on this board and sports media is that Iowa recruits these slow, plodding, farm boys and then coaches them up to a All-America level. I think that is true to an extent (Karl Klug, Dallas Clark come to mind), however Iowa has plenty of talent as measured by recruiting rankings as well.

For example, some of the well known names on the Iowa team - Ricky Stanzi, Tony Moeaki, Bryan Bulaga, Broderick Binns were all highly recruited and were high 3 star to 4 star types.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/recruiting/player-Rick-Stanzi-41594
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/recruiting/player-Anthony-Moeaki-24074
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/recruiting/player-Bryan-Bulaga-47443
http://rivals.yahoo.com/iowa/football/recruiting/player-Broderick-Binns-46496

The same is also true when it comes to Wisky. John Clay, Josh Oglesby, O'Brien Schofield, Nick Toon all highly recruiting 4-5 star types.
 




mesothelioma said:
While I agree in general with the context of your post, I feel the need to dispel this myth about Iowa recruiting (and Wisconsin recruiting as well). The general consensus among posters on this board and sports media is that Iowa recruits these slow, plodding, farm boys and then coaches them up to a All-America level. I think that is true to an extent (Karl Klug, Dallas Clark come to mind), however Iowa has plenty of talent as measured by recruiting rankings as well.

For example, some of the well known names on the Iowa team - Ricky Stanzi, Tony Moeaki, Bryan Bulaga, Broderick Binns were all highly recruited and were high 3 star to 4 star types.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/recruiting/player-Rick-Stanzi-41594
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/recruiting/player-Anthony-Moeaki-24074
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/recruiting/player-Bryan-Bulaga-47443
http://rivals.yahoo.com/iowa/football/recruiting/player-Broderick-Binns-46496

The same is also true when it comes to Wisky. John Clay, Josh Oglesby, O'Brien Schofield, Nick Toon all highly recruiting 4-5 star types.
Click to expand...

Stanzi's barely had any BCS offers (I think it was just us and Purdue), and he wasn't even supposed to be the best QB we signed in that class (the since booted from the team Arvell Nelson was). He was not a highly touted guy at all. Binns had some other nice offers, but we were basically the only teams that recruited him to play DE, which is what he wanted to play. Everyone else recruiting him thought he was too small and would have to play OLB. Bulaga and Moeaki were legit top-tier talent, and we have some other guys on the roster who were as well, but that's not the type of guy Iowa has built its program around. We're all about developing those lesser recruits and turning them into stars.
 

Iowa

Iowa has a lot of highly recruited players on the OL and DL. They also have the undrrated MN kid on the DL but most of their four star players are on the OL, DL, TE. You still win in the trenches.
 

CedarRapidsGopher said:
I am hopeful that the two of you are correct, that we are headed in the right direction. What gets discouraging is the number of games we get into where we do not compete. The game against PS is a blatant example from this year, IA and MI last year.

It almost appears as if we are merely stable, in the middle of the conference. Perhaps given the influx of higher rated prospects and a new facility to help maintain that influx, all that is required is some staff continuity to help insure we are headed in the right direction.
Click to expand...

The games where we did not compete we were completely demolished at the line. I like that the Iowa and Michigan games helped lead to adjustments in philosophy (new OL coach, new OC -> power running formations) while not completely abandoning the idea of spreading the offense out. Some people claim changing the offense is a sign of weakness from Brewster but I view it as a positive that he is evaluating strengths and weaknesses and adjusting what we do offensively. Mack Brown at Texas and Mike Belotti at Oregon both changed their offensive system from their initial offense but because they were successful at their program nobody questioned their philosophy.

Building a program is a long process. The Northwestern and Purdue games gave a glimpse of where we are hopefully heading--we were able to run over lower quality DL's--but the Penn State game showed that we aren't where we want to be yet. Penn State is one of the best front 7's in the country and Iowa (the best OL in the Big Ten) struggled to run against them. The goal is to eventually get to the point where you can run on a defense like Penn State and that doesn't happen in a season. Ohio State has one of the best DL's in the country so I don't see us running effectively on them either but we need to continue to emphasize the run to get better at it and build the program.
 

Nine said:
Iowa has a lot of highly recruited players on the OL and DL. They also have the undrrated MN kid on the DL but most of their four star players are on the OL, DL, TE. You still win in the trenches.
Click to expand...

Exactly. I think Ferentz is way too smart to consistently rely on walk-ons and "sleepers" to contribute year in and year out.

This isn't to detract from the job the coaching staff is doing. Even 5-star recruits need good coaching. However you also have to have a certain amount of talent to work with before you can reasonably expect to "coach them up".
 

The turning point was 1978 - when we hired Joe Salem and Iowa hired Hayden Fry. Ever since, Iowa has had a solid program and we've had six different coaches, none of whom could win a Big Ten title or get to the Rose Bowl.
 

I agree with many of the points made in this thread, especially those about coaching. Finding the right coaching staff and keeping them together is key to success. Penn State has used this formula, and schools like Iowa and Minnesota can as well. Having two head coaches since 1979 has been critical to achieving long term success at Iowa, but so has maintaining as much consistency as possible on the staffs. As Hayden Fry lost guys like Bill Snyder, Dan McCarney, Kirk Ferentz and Barry Alvarez, I think it became harder and harder to win consistently. He was able to replace some of these guys and have success, but the more turnover you have the harder it is. I think Minnesota has had far too much staff turnover, even since Brewster took the job.

I also agree that a key to success at schools like Iowa, Minnesota and Wisconsin is on both lines, not so much at the skill positions. In Iowa's case, I don't think enough credit can ever be given to the job that Norm Parker and his defensive coaches do with the DL and the defense as a whole. Consistently good defenses play a huge role in Iowa's success under Ferentz. Norm Parker has been Kirk Ferentz's best hire IMO. Year in and year out he puts a tough hard nosed defense on the field, and that keeps you competitive.
 

Iowa has instate competition from Iowa State and UNI. We have nothing to compete with other than St. John's
 

mesothelioma said:
Exactly. I think Ferentz is way too smart to consistently rely on walk-ons and "sleepers" to contribute year in and year out.

This isn't to detract from the job the coaching staff is doing. Even 5-star recruits need good coaching. However you also have to have a certain amount of talent to work with before you can reasonably expect to "coach them up".
Click to expand...

I think he does consistently rely on walk-ons and sleepers to contribute year in and year out, he just doesn't do it at every position all at once. They supplement higher rated recruits. Case in point, Iowa's DB's currently include Spievey (2 star) and Greenwood (walk-on three year starter), while the DL includes Klug (2 star).
 

I think a lot of Gopher fans have to let go of the notion that it takes 4* and 5* guys to win consistently. The core of Iowa and Wisconsin's teams, year in and year out, are under-recruited program guys who will stick around for 5 years to contribute for a couple. That needs to be supplemented by a few good play makers and more highly-recruited players. Somehow, when Brewster got hired (behind nothing other than being a great recruiter) the fan base put all their eggs in the basket of Brewster as a recruiter. Getting better talent is very important, but developing the under the radar program players is what builds a program. It seems Brewster is trying to be Ron Zook, but as we see this year those great recruiting rankings didnt really solidify the program, just made it very inconsistent. Many folks would take what Zook did in a second though, since they DID go to a Rose Bowl, but I think the majority would want to see a consistent, fundamental program like Iowa (and I'd say wisconsin - knowing I'll get blasted for it) that will be around the middle to the top of the B10 every year with chances to win the conference when they put together a strong year.
 

upchurch said:
Iowa has instate competition from Iowa State and UNI. We have nothing to compete with other than St. John's
Click to expand...

UNI doesn't compete with them for anyone, they get the local kids ISU and Iowa either don't want or who can't get into either school. ISU provides some competition (mostly for kids from Ames or the surrounding area), but not a whole lot the last few years. Iowa's stepped up their in-state recruiting a lot, and more or less locks down all the really top-level talent anymore.
 

i thought the mods told us this flaming iowee hogeye troll (assashian) was banned?

Assashian said:
Stanzi's barely had any BCS offers (I think it was just us and Purdue), and he wasn't even supposed to be the best QB we signed in that class (the since booted from the team Arvell Nelson was). He was not a highly touted guy at all. Binns had some other nice offers, but we were basically the only teams that recruited him to play DE, which is what he wanted to play. Everyone else recruiting him thought he was too small and would have to play OLB. Bulaga and Moeaki were legit top-tier talent, and we have some other guys on the roster who were as well, but that's not the type of guy Iowa has built its program around. We're all about developing those lesser recruits and turning them into stars.
Click to expand...

mods - you had told us last week that this iowee hogeye troll (assashian) had been booted from the board? what gives?! :rolleyes:
 

Great Plains Gopher said:
The turning point was 1978 - when we hired Joe Salem and Iowa hired Hayden Fry. Ever since, Iowa has had a solid program and we've had six different coaches, none of whom could win a Big Ten title or get to the Rose Bowl.
Click to expand...

i would phrase the major mistake of the late 70's another way: we fired cal stoll. that was a big mistake. i think he was very close to breaking through the big 2 (osu & michigan), little 8 strangle-hold that had been on the conference most of the 70's. it felt like he was just a season or two away from accomplishing it. i think firing cal stoll hurt the U football program over the long-term FAR more than most admit.
 

Bronko Nagurski Gopher said:
mods - you had told us last week that this iowee hogeye troll (assashian) had been booted from the board? what gives?! :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Literally nothing in that post was a troll, and you have again misspelled the name of our state and mascot in your anger. You seem to do that a lot, I bet it's embarrassing. Why are you so angry all the time, Bronko? Do you want to talk about it?
 

GophersInIowa said:
It's a lot easier for them to keep their in-state guys because almost everyone grows up hawkeye fans around here. Having no major professional sports here is really big in that sense.
Click to expand...

I don't understand. What does not having a pro football team have to do with a talented high school player's loyalty to his state's university? Are you saying that the U of M lost, say, Floyd because of the Vikings?
 

SoMplsHawkI said:
I don't understand. What does not having a pro football team have to do with a talented high school player's loyalty to his state's university? Are you saying that the U of M lost, say, Floyd because of the Vikings?
Click to expand...
That had nothing to do with Floyd leaving, but it isn't necessarily a bad thing to be the only game in town.
 

MNBadgerGuy said:
I think a lot of Gopher fans have to let go of the notion that it takes 4* and 5* guys to win consistently. The core of Iowa and Wisconsin's teams, year in and year out, are under-recruited program guys who will stick around for 5 years to contribute for a couple. That needs to be supplemented by a few good play makers and more highly-recruited players. Somehow, when Brewster got hired (behind nothing other than being a great recruiter) the fan base put all their eggs in the basket of Brewster as a recruiter. Getting better talent is very important, but developing the under the radar program players is what builds a program. It seems Brewster is trying to be Ron Zook, but as we see this year those great recruiting rankings didnt really solidify the program, just made it very inconsistent. Many folks would take what Zook did in a second though, since they DID go to a Rose Bowl, but I think the majority would want to see a consistent, fundamental program like Iowa (and I'd say wisconsin - knowing I'll get blasted for it) that will be around the middle to the top of the B10 every year with chances to win the conference when they put together a strong year.
Click to expand...


of the 22 iowa starters......15 of them were 5.7 on rivals or higher

don't kid yourself that iowa is doing it without highly ranked players

thats not even close to true

Iowas OL and TE are ages 22, 20, 22, 23, 22, 22. The stars are 4, 4, 3, 4, 4, 3

it makes iowans feel better that they think they do it without star players

if you want me to post the defense.....all you have to do is ask
 

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