Sid: P.J. Fleck engineered historic Gophers turnaround; end of Claeys era "lowest points for any major college football program"

[John Galt]

While I agree the end of the Claeys era was a low point of the program, it pales in comparison to the Ped State scandal, SMU death penalty, and some others. The Salem and Brewster eras were also lower points for the program.

So these things mean that Kill/Claeys didn’t do well here? Okey Dokey.

This is the narrative that keeps changing. You and the other piranhas spent 2 years of your lives telling anyone who would listen that firing Claeys was a mistake and the past regimes were better than Fleck. Now that Fleck has erased all doubt, your feeble argument has turned to Kill and Claeys “did well here.” Since doing well is subjective, it will continue to be argued for the next decade.

 

[NotAFanOfBecky]

Kills rebuild allowed us to even hire a guy like Fleck. He should be respected for it. Brewster left is place a total mess.

This is the correct answer. Grades were so bad under Brew we were at risk of losing scholarships due to lack of graduation. Kill changed that and brought us to a New Years Day bowl. Now, Fleck has taken us even higher. Only thing I have issue with is Kill's post U of M behavior. He was revered now he's loathed by many. It's too bad.

 

[John Galt]

This is the correct answer. Grades were so bad under Brew we were at risk of losing scholarships due to lack of graduation. Kill changed that and brought us to a New Years Day bowl. Now, Fleck has taken us even higher. Only thing I have issue with is Kill's post U of M behavior. He was revered now he's loathed by many. It's too bad.

Why do you think it’s too bad that Kill is loathed? I loved Jerry when he was here. He did a lot of good things for the U, but the U also did a lot of good things for him. I doubt any other P5 school would have hired him and continued to work with him given his health issues. Any loathing that exists towards Jerry now is completely his own doing based on his actions and words since he left.

 

[rugger14]

Kill did a decent job. We will never know what could have been if he had stayed healthy. He helped get the new facilities built. He made it a better place for Fleck. Claeys is probably a really good football coach but he was in over his head with everything else that comes with being a head coach in the B1G. Coyle brought Fleck in to fix the culture. Kill takes the culture comments personally and has made some ill-advised public statements. We are better off now than we were then. 11-2 shuts a lot of folks up. RTB, Ski-U-Mah, Go Gophers!

 

[Panthadad2]

While I agree the end of the Claeys era was a low point of the program, it pales in comparison to the Ped State scandal, SMU death penalty, and some others. The Salem and Brewster eras were also lower points for the program.

I had the same initial response to the article. There have been several situations that were far worse. That said, any university that has a system in place that suspends 10 students including several of which had nothing to do with the incident, then allows those students' names to be destroyed publicly, was a seriously bad deal.

 

[Gold Rush]

I had the same initial response to the article. There have been several situations that were far worse. That said, any university that has a system in place that suspends 10 students including several of which had nothing to do with the incident, then allows those students' names to be destroyed publicly, was a seriously bad deal.

We have had some serious scandals hit here too and they weren't pretty. We STILL haven't recovered from the Clem Haskins incident with Jan Gangelhoff and firing, and Mitch Lee and his buddies actions that led to Dutcher's firing at Wisconsin was a disaster, too. This whole incident with the sex scandal with the football team was handled horrifically bad, but we came out better than before due to Coyle who I agree is the best AD I have ever seen here! If anyone sees that guy you need to shake his hand and thank him, that's for sure!!

 

[MNVCGUY]

Someone with a lot of time on their hands should go through the archives and find all the threads we have had debating this Kill/Claeys/Fleck topic over the past few years. The overall tone of them has evolved as Fleck has won and Kill has done things to alienate some of his followers but the general arguments stay basically the same.

For me it is all pretty simple

Mason - Resurrected the program and turned it from a laughing stock to a respectable team.

Brewster - In over his head, hired on the cheap by an AD who was great for non-revenue sports but had no idea how to support the programs that actually make money for the department.

Kill - Cleaned up the Brewster/Maturi (need to stop blaming Brewster's years just on him, they should always be linked to Maturi). Brought the program back to Mason levels and maybe slightly better before throwing things in flux again by needing to step down.

Claeys - Placeholder coach, was never going to be a long term solution because he isn't a power 5 head coach. He was just there to cover the transition from Kill and to give Coyle time to get situated.

Fleck - In 3 years has accomplished things the guys above him never came close to. First coach we have had here in a long time that seems like he has the ability to build a team that may actually have a chance to compete with some of the best in the Country.

At some point this whole topic will die. As a fanbase would be awesome if people could respect Mason, Kill and Claeys for the good things they did while also understanding that Fleck is working on a whole different level from those guys. For the first time since I have been following the program (early 90's) we have a coach and administration on the same page and ready to do what needs to be done to build a winner. And the early returns on that vision have been pretty spectacular.

At some point, the past will be put to bed. We can keep dwelling on what happened here before Fleck or we can stop fretting about it and look to what finally appears to be a bright future for Gopher football. One where we ended the year in the top 10 and will start next year ranked.

Just my 2 cents. Now back to your regularly scheduled rehashing of the same topic over and over and over and over again....

 

[Hopeful Pessimist]

This is the only response which I will make to this thread. After many disappointments over far too many years, I decided to have hope one more time when I heard P.J. for the first time. I don't care about Kill/Claeys, Brewster, Holtz, etc. The focus on academic, athletic, social and spiritual seems to be working. I just hope that the Gophers can win a Rose Bowl while some of Murray Warmath's players are still alive!!!!!!

 

[short ornery norwegian]

1983 - Gophers 1-10. Gave up 50 points or more in 6 games, including 84 to Nebraska.

2007 - Gophers 1-11. Lost to Bowling Green and Florida Atlantic.

Or, how about 1950. Gophers finished 8th in the Final 1949 AP Ratings. In 1950, program went 1-7-1, ending Bernie Bierman's career on a very sour note.

But Sid says a 9-4 season is the lowest point in program history.

Yes, there was an off-field scandal. A scandal that was handled poorly by all parties - players, coach, AD, President and EOAA. And yet, after the scandal, the Gopher team - playing without several key players - came back to beat a higher-rated team in the bowl game. Obviously, a program in Chaos......

Look, Fleck has done a great job.

But - ripping Kill and Claeys does NOT make Fleck's accomplishments look better by comparison.

What Sid - and other Flecksters - want to do is make Fleck look better by claiming he inherited the worst situation in the history of western civilization. Only one problem - it's a gross exaggeration.

 

[Cruze]

This is the correct answer. Grades were so bad under Brew we were at risk of losing scholarships due to lack of graduation. Kill changed that and brought us to a New Years Day bowl.

You don't have it quite right. Brewster had a rough start with the Gopher's APR rankings but for the rest of his tenure the team's APR rates exceeded the rates during the last three years Mason was coach. Kill and Fleck have just continued the improvement of the team's APR that was started by Brewster.

Sport	School	State	Academic Year	Multi-Year Rate	Penalties	Postseason
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2004-2005	918
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2005-2006	919
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2006-2007	927
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2007-2008	915	Immediate Penalty - Scholarship Reduction = 3
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2008-2009	934
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2009-2010	935
Football	University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	MN	2010-2011	932

 

[Crosby]

I frankly don't see as much disagreement on these threads as some people tend to believe there is. A lot of posters are basically saying the same things. My summary:

1) Kill - very good coach; made solid improvements; I was a big supporter when he was here; at the time I was really disappointed when he couldn't continue; left some good things for Fleck to work with. I was a bog fan when he left. But his anti U of MN, anti-Fleck behavior have turned me off. Thanks Jerry for the work here. I don't think about you much anymore.
2) Claeys - Excellent coordinator/assistant. Not head coach material. It felt at the time that were were beginning another very long walk in the wilderness when he was the head man. Didn't do anything particularly worthy of being fired. But the allegations of sexual assault, the boycott, and his supportive tweet didn't help. The combination of that, and the feeling of an uncertain future for the program, did him in. I was one of those fans who was "done supporting this program" at the time.
3) Fleck - He did indeed inherit at least a partial mess. Not necessarily a talent thing... just a lot of turmoil. He has done things that we haven't seen in Gopher Land for a LONG time. I was skeptical at first but am now a full supporter. Remains to be seen whether he can consistently beat major rivals or whether the program can take a step even higher. But I love what I have seen. I am so glad that things worked out the way they did.
4) Coyle - This guy does not get enough credit. Period. He made a controversial decision when he made the Claeys move. He made another risky move by hiring Fleck. That could have backfired on him big time! If PJ had not had the success he has enjoyed so far... Coyle would be viewed as another AD who fell for the lines of the Music Man. I think he has done more for U of MN athletics than just about anyone I can recall.

 

[Pompous Elitist]

PJF has exceeded my expectations.
I thought Kill was doing a slow build but certainly frustrated with the offense.
Claeys, shared concern with recruiting but with a good recruiting staff and on field results that can mitigated.

As far as 2016 it probably depends on your sensibilities and opinions regarding events. That gritty WSU win was very impressive considering circumstances (and vs a very good pass attack) but I’m sure it’s overshadowed for many by their opinion of the guys and their stand on a fair process. “Arguing at the dinner table“ isn’t comfortable for anyone so it’s a forgettable time for most.

 

[Spoofin]

This is the narrative that keeps changing. You and the other piranhas spent 2 years of your lives telling anyone who would listen that firing Claeys was a mistake and the past regimes were better than Fleck. Now that Fleck has erased all doubt, your feeble argument has turned to Kill and Claeys “did well here.” Since doing well is subjective, it will continue to be argued for the next decade.

It most certainly does. I fully believe that in your mind that someone saying they liked Kill/Claeys, they wouldn't have fired Claeys, they didn't like how Claeys was fired, that the 9-win season doesn't need an *, etc. is the same as saying we would be better off with Kill/TC. Very few debates have been about that - yet as you said, you love to change the narrative. You are the poster child for the stance that says the bigger PJ fan you are, the more you need to dismiss everything the past coaches did and make sure everyone feels he took over a dumpster fire. Telling me that no coach from the Kill era has had a better job since leaving here really does nothing to change the actual debate this site, other than you, is having.

 

[highwayman]

I am curious how you think that Kill's rebuild was a happy accident? Please also define your use of the term revisionist history in regards to supporting Kill and Claeys.

Their lack of vision and institutional control is overlooked. It is clearly apparent now. I'm happy it worked out.

 

[Gopho Sapiens]

4) Coyle - This guy does not get enough credit. Period. He made a controversial decision when he made the Claeys move. He made another risky move by hiring Fleck. That could have backfired on him big time! If PJ had not had the success he has enjoyed so far... Coyle would be viewed as another AD who fell for the lines of the Music Man. I think he has done more for U of MN athletics than just about anyone I can recall.

I wholeheartedly agree on a couple of your points Crosby.

PJ has done a fabulous job so far. I'm not ready to start renaming stadiums or erecting statues yet. If he continues on his current trajectory, I'll be all in. As PJ has said himself, it's easy to look like a genius when you win, but if this team doesn't pull out three or four last drive miracle wins early in the season this conversation would be different. Personally, I think Tanner Morgan is the secret sauce right now. Granted, he was recruited by PJ, so some credit goes there, but no Tanner- no season.

Time will tell whether this was merely a spectacular season or if it becomes a legendary hire.

Sid trying to whitewash this into the Marshall Plan of college football is a stretch, even by Sid. The ass kissing I expect, but this is drifting into the make believe.

That said, I don't think Coyle would have made the switch so early if not for the iron being as red hot as it was after Fleck's Cotton Bowl achievement. Another year and PJ would be either be gone or Coyle would be forced into a bidding war he may not be able to win. I think Claeys made the whole situation go off the tracks by so soundly beating Washington State. Now you have Coyle stuck with a lame duck coach on the one hand and the next hottest coach slipping out of his grasp on the other. Trying to dump the change back onto the scandal just backfired. I he had simply said "this is my guy", Claeys would have saved face, Coyle and Kaler wouldn't have been so severely lambasted and history would have be written differently.

Trying to spin it as the low point of the program is just laughable. It was a terrible PR fiasco by Kaler and Coyle mores than the nadir of the program.

Just my opinion...

 

[Gophers7NatTitlesBadgers0]

I had the same initial response to the article. There have been several situations that were far worse. That said, any university that has a system in place that suspends 10 students including several of which had nothing to do with the incident, then allows those students' names to be destroyed publicly, was a seriously bad deal.

Agreed!

 

[Vandy]

Does Sid not back every coach hook, line, and sinker while they are in tenure?

 

[Deleted_User]

This thread is dead to me.

 

[Mulligan]

you love to change the narrative.

Ah, the irony yet once again. From your farewell address promising to leave GH for good after people were so mean, that poor you wasn't having any fun. Talk about changing the narrative ... you've backpedaled so fast in the last year from your stance regarding PJ it's a wonder you're not sitting on your ass from tripping. There are more quotes but it would be obsessive to use them.

"I feel sorry for those that believe blindly in this fraud"

 

[NotAFanOfBecky]

Why do you think it’s too bad that Kill is loathed? I loved Jerry when he was here. He did a lot of good things for the U, but the U also did a lot of good things for him. I doubt any other P5 school would have hired him and continued to work with him given his health issues. Any loathing that exists towards Jerry now is completely his own doing based on his actions and words since he left.

I don't disagree at all with your statement, 100% right on. I was simply stating that a guy who by all standards was pretty well loved and respected here but because of his own actions as you stated, is now loathed by many for those actions. It's too bad because he was in a good position here with alumnus, fans, etc. but wrecked all of that by his own actions and words. Don't understand why he just didn't take the high road. That's all I was saying.

 

[rugger14]

I don't disagree at all with your statement, 100% right on. I was simply stating that a guy who by all standards was pretty well loved and respected here but because of his own actions as you stated, is now loathed by many for those actions. It's too bad because he was in a good position here with alumnus, fans, etc. but wrecked all of that by his own actions and words. Don't understand why he just didn't take the high road. That's all I was saying.

Kill took the culture change stuff personally. That is understandable. He just should have kept his mouth shut.

 

[OldBob53]

Heh, people-- we haven't been this good in 60 years. Complaints? None from me.

 

[Spoofin]

Ah, the irony yet once again. From your farewell address promising to leave GH for good after people were so mean, that poor you wasn't having any fun. Talk about changing the narrative ... you've backpedaled so fast in the last year from your stance regarding PJ it's a wonder you're not sitting on your ass from tripping. There are more quotes but it would be obsessive to use them.

"I feel sorry for those that believe blindly in this fraud"

You were likely coherent and witty when you were younger. Your better days are behind you.

I still stand by everything I’ve said about PJ. How’s that for back peddling? I know, “close enough” for you.

 

[WAGopher]

I had the same initial response to the article. There have been several situations that were far worse. That said, any university that has a system in place that suspends 10 students including several of which had nothing to do with the incident, then allows those students' names to be destroyed publicly, was a seriously bad deal.

I thought it was a player’s dad, not the University, that released the names of those involved.

 

[GFBfan]

I thought it was a player’s dad, not the University, that released the names of those involved.

It was A.J. Barkers moms friend.

 

[A_Slab_of_Bacon]

It was A.J. Barkers moms friend.

AJ got his revenge!

 

[ComoGopher]

I thought it was a player’s dad, not the University, that released the names of those involved.

Well Tyrone Carter released the victim's name right? The U just announced that players were suspended for the bowl game correct? IIRC there was a lot of speculation. I think many of us were wondering about grades since the timing was after finals for fall semester. The U did not announce what the suspension was for. I think you remember correctly and a player's dad announced it was for the previous incident.

 

[Some guy]

You were likely coherent and witty when you were younger. Your better days are behind you.

I still stand by everything I’ve said about PJ. How’s that for back peddling? I know, “close enough” for you.

Funny you ask for links but you just want me to take your word for it that PJ self described as not knowing Xs and Os

 

[highwayman]

Does Sid not back every coach hook, line, and sinker while they are in tenure?

Yes you’re probably right, but there is something about supporting a program.

There are so many Minnesotans and, yes, a good number of Gopherholers, that would rather criticize and besmirch the program first, then see if they were “right” from the beginning. When things go well, they’re right on board. When things go bad, they go back to being “right”.

Not a good way to live life.

 

[Dano564]

Funny you ask for links but you just want me to take your word for it that PJ self described as not knowing Xs and Os

If PJ said that, Spoofin should add that to his signature line as one of those exaggerations.