Shutdown U's Extrajudicial Process

[Gopherguy0723]

Now that the players won't officially be charged or arrested (lower burden of proof than Preponderance of the Evidence), it is time to focus on Title IX extremism, authoritarian bodies like the EOAA, and the U's "judicial system."

Lee Hutton is in prime position to deal with Title IX as well as the EOAA. What we I'm focusing in on is the U's extrajudicial process. The U's "court" was designed to investigate infractions such as plagiarism, cheating on tests, and so forth. It was not designed and the "panel" are not trained to handle matters like sexual assault. Untrained bureaucrats and administrators don't have the knowledge, skill, or ability to handle these matters. These people end up ruining people's lives and unjustly label people as victims and rapists. Alleged victims get passed around, pun intended, like a political football by people with agendas who care little for the alleged victims. Privacy concerns are biased and treated unequally. The process breaks down and everybody loses.

The U and all other universities need to get out of the business of judging "crimes" under the guise of the code of conduct. These matters should be handled by courts and courts alone, and it's time for all of us to demand these changes be made for the sake of alleged victims, the accused, and general fairness for all people.

 

[gopherhoopsguy]

Exactly!

 

[Maverick]

Now that the players won't officially be charged or arrested (lower burden of proof than Preponderance of the Evidence), it is time to focus on Title IX extremism, authoritarian bodies like the EOAA, and the U's "judicial system."

Lee Hutton is in prime position to deal with Title IX as well as the EOAA. What we I'm focusing in on is the U's extrajudicial process. The U's "court" was designed to investigate infractions such as plagiarism, cheating on tests, and so forth. It was not designed and the "panel" are not trained to handle matters like sexual assault. Untrained bureaucrats and administrators don't have the knowledge, skill, or ability to handle these matters. These people end up ruining people's lives and unjustly label people as victims and rapists. Alleged victims get passed around, pun intended, like a political football by people with agendas who care little for the alleged victims. Privacy concerns are biased and treated unequally. The process breaks down and everybody loses.

The U and all other universities need to get out of the business of judging "crimes" under the guise of the code of conduct. These matters be handled by courts and courts alone, and it's time for all of us to demand these changes be made for the sake of alleged victims, the accused, and general fairness for all people.

Maybe the new republican controlled legislature can get out in front of this and get the whole state riled up....

 

[Gopherguy0723]

Maybe the new republican controlled legislature can get out in front of this and get the whole state riled up....

It needs to start with the Board of Regents and the administration. Changes need to be made there. Kaler doesn't have the fortitude to do what's best for anyone other than himself.

Title IX plays heavily into this as well, but that's where Lee Hutton and the new Trump Administration can make changes.

The state legislature won't have the will or the courage to take this up, and what they can do is fairly limited anyway. They will be too scared to take on the authoritarian PC movement groups. It also doesn't get the legislature much of a win for their corrupt political donors and interest groups. I expect them to almost completely ignore this issue unless it some how becomes more politically polarized. There's not much to gain and a lot to lose.

 

[Deleted_User]

Try working the issue at the federal level. And, try repealing the several laws that fall under that Title. And, when you get on it, what are you going to do with all the millions of protestors that are going to be very much bothered by the repealed laws that protected their rights to fair and equal treatment? Every time you think you are fixing something, you are really bringing back all the faults in the system that existed prior to these laws. So, what are you planning on doing to remedy those faults?

 

[bottlebass]

Try working the issue at the federal level. And, try repealing the several laws that fall under that Title. And, when you get on it, what are you going to do with all the millions of protestors that are going to be very much bothered by the repealed laws that protected their rights to fair and equal treatment? Every time you think you are fixing something, you are really bringing back all the faults in the system that existed prior to these laws. So, what are you planning on doing to remedy those faults?

Free markets work the best.

 

[highwayman]

Maybe the new republican controlled legislature can get out in front of this and get the whole state riled up....

I was wondering when the drug-addled, mentally-challenged Governor would add his perspective.

 

[justthefacts]

Now that the players won't officially be charged or arrested (lower burden of proof than Preponderance of the Evidence), it is time to focus on Title IX extremism, authoritarian bodies like the EOAA, and the U's "judicial system."

Lee Hutton is in prime position to deal with Title IX as well as the EOAA. What we I'm focusing in on is the U's extrajudicial process. The U's "court" was designed to investigate infractions such as plagiarism, cheating on tests, and so forth. It was not designed and the "panel" are not trained to handle matters like sexual assault. Untrained bureaucrats and administrators don't have the knowledge, skill, or ability to handle these matters. These people end up ruining people's lives and unjustly label people as victims and rapists. Alleged victims get passed around, pun intended, like a political football by people with agendas who care little for the alleged victims. Privacy concerns are biased and treated unequally. The process breaks down and everybody loses.

The U and all other universities need to get out of the business of judging "crimes" under the guise of the code of conduct. These matters should be handled by courts and courts alone, and it's time for all of us to demand these changes be made for the sake of alleged victims, the accused, and general fairness for all people.

The problem with this idea is that people keep acting like the EOAA acted contrary to what the law indicates. Instead what happened is they handled it exactly as courts have said they should handle it.

 

[Maverick]

I was wondering when the drug-addled, mentally-challenged Governor would add his perspective.

Ha! I said what I did a bit in jest, but there is a grain of truth in that I really hope this gets addressed in a positive way!

 

[Gopherguy0723]

The problem with this idea is that people keep acting like the EOAA acted contrary to what the law indicates. Instead what happened is they handled it exactly as courts have said they should handle it.

That's not entirely true, but it is beside the point.

Reform is badly needed, and universities need to get out of the business of prosecuting crimes under the guise of the code of conduct.

 

[Jack jones]

I hoping that Trump will do away the quota system. And that's exactly what Title 9 ends up being. the quota of male to female in the U determines number of sports and expenditures. Some schools were forced to drop men sports because of the Title 9. Sad

 

[proudgopher]

The problem with this idea is that people keep acting like the EOAA acted contrary to what the law indicates. Instead what happened is they handled it exactly as courts have said they should handle it.

I don't think this is exactly true. In other cases, courts have struck down and awarded damages to plaintiffs when their due process rights were not accorded in administrative hearings. Title IX was enacted to protect some rights, but in the process of protecting those rights an administrative committee is still obliged to follow fundamental, constitutionally protected due process protections.

 

[Deleted_User]

The courts are obliged to follow the Cleary Act, which requires that due process be allowed for all code of conduct matters. The argument that the U did not offer this is so beyond the truth of the matter. Policy dictates that representation is available to any charged student. And, it never ceases to amaze me that the limits of the EOAA are not defined by people commenting here about due process. There are limits that favor the students as well. But, we shall set that aside here to move with the idea that it is just flawed. What is to replace the hearing process at the U for conduct issues if not the EOAA?

 

[alchemy2u]

Wow, another thread of old time wisdom.


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[GopherBulldog]

The courts are obliged to follow the Cleary Act, which requires that due process be allowed for all code of conduct matters. The argument that the U did not offer this is so beyond the truth of the matter. Policy dictates that representation is available to any charged student. And, it never ceases to amaze me that the limits of the EOAA are not defined by people commenting here about due process. There are limits that favor the students as well. But, we shall set that aside here to move with the idea that it is just flawed. What is to replace the hearing process at the U for conduct issues if not the EOAA?

This is a complex issue and it's hard for me to take a strong stand either way on the topic without truly understanding the full extent of their process and the power they have to dictate punishment. But if it is a given that they do have an appropriate process and they do have the power to either dictate or suggest punishment, where it starts for me is... Who are these people? Are they elected to their positions? Are they inherently biased for one reason or another? I don't know the answers to these questions. Thus, it makes me skeptical. Even with a perfect proces it can't help you if those running it are flawed.

 

[Pompous Elitist]

I don't think this is exactly true. In other cases, courts have struck down and awarded damages to plaintiffs when their due process rights were not accorded in administrative hearings. Title IX was enacted to protect some rights, but in the process of protecting those rights an administrative committee is still obliged to follow fundamental, constitutionally protected due process protections.

Title IX was originally intended to stop discrimination on the basis of sex and provide opportunities to females in higher ed and I think most reasonable people have little problem with that, arguments over loss of male sports aside (a legitimate gripe).

What's happened though is the original intent has changed to try and ensure equal outcomes rather than equal opportunity. Progressives feel that the threat of sexual assault prevents educational opportunities. Thus this very recent trend to throw out of school any person even accused of a sexual harassment or assault claim, regardless of merit or evidence.

If we are as a society to protect every student from harmful thoughts or potential crimes I have no idea how our society can proceed. And thus we are literally seeing tenets of fairness and due process and free speech obliterated in our universities in a wrongheaded quest to root out any sort of action, thought, or person that could possibly cause emotional harm (typically to a female student or traditional minority). This type of thinking is not compatible with a free society or rational debate. Let the legal system determine criminal activity, protect rights to free speech, and empower students to learn to live in a free society of diverse and "harmful" opinion.

 

[CoMn]

This is a great idea! Let's shut it down, forego all federal funding (who needs it anyway), let recruits screw drunk women and have our secondary celebrate victories over lame opponents by training cheerleaders. Awesome! Who's going to step up and replace the federal funding so our football team can be great again?

 

[Pompous Elitist]

This is a great idea! Let's shut it down, forego all federal funding (who needs it anyway), let recruits screw drunk women and have our secondary celebrate victories over lame opponents by training cheerleaders. Awesome! Who's going to step up and replace the federal funding so our football team can be great again?

The above are quite literally the type of people handing down these new Title IX mandates and concepts like affirmative consent. Scary, no?

 

[Maverick]

The above are quite literally the type of people handing down these new Title IX mandates and concepts like affirmative consent. Scary, no?

CoMN is probably on that committee

 

[Spoofin]

This is a great idea! Let's shut it down, forego all federal funding (who needs it anyway), let recruits screw drunk women and have our secondary celebrate victories over lame opponents by training cheerleaders. Awesome! Who's going to step up and replace the federal funding so our football team can be great again?

I'm not happy about the recruit aspect, but painting the picture that the girl in this incident was drunk needs to stop. There is zero evidence of that, and actual evidence that she wasn't. She had like 4 shots hours before, has said herself she drank no more, and the police (who have seen videos you haven't) have said she showed no signs of being drunk. I'm not saying her claims here are false, but I don't recall even her claiming they took advantage of her "drunk state." You might be getting your "facts" from UpN.


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[Mulligan]

The above are quite literally the type of people handing down these new Title IX mandates and concepts like affirmative consent. Scary, no?

Oh, BS. You make statements like they are the literal truth and they are nowhere near it. Here's another one, "Thus this very recent trend to throw out of school any person even accused of a sexual harassment or assault claim, regardless of merit or evidence." Pretty much ignores there is a Gopher basketball player who went through the process and was cleared and is playing.

This isn't a cut and dried issue like some of the passionate serial extremists on both sides are claiming. EOAA didn't just develop out of a vacuum because those misguided progressives have their head up their ass. Read some articles on rape, sexual assault, its impact on women, and, while you're at it, brush up on what's happened at Tennessee, Baylor, Colorado, Florida State, and Nebraska. It's easy to say, "Let law enforcement and the judicial system handle it," but the fact of the matter is, they often don't handle it. Been reading quite a bit on this, and a balanced article pointed to the case of Christian Peter of Nebraska as providing the impetus for using Title IX.

The U has a process set up and pretty sure the EOAA people have training and guidelines. At the same time, there are obvious problems. One of the main ones is that the vagueness of the original directive left it up to universities and colleges to set up their own systems. So after the first bunch of lawsuits from women who sued under Title IX because they felt they weren't getting proper protection, there have been recent lawsuits from men who felt they were being improperly punished. The most notorious case involved Yale University and its basketball captain.

It's clear there has to be some changes. How much of that pertains to what is happening here, I have no idea. But if you're going to completely toss Title IX, then you better also institute better training for law enforcement, educate students, and somehow change the all around culture.

Be interesting to see what the Trump administration does with all of this. Have no idea if "Grab Them by the Pussy" will actually scrap this directive. Seems to me he might be a little vulnerable on this issue.

 

[GopherBulldog]

Oh, BS. You make statements like they are the literal truth and they are nowhere near it. Here's another one, "Thus this very recent trend to throw out of school any person even accused of a sexual harassment or assault claim, regardless of merit or evidence." Pretty much ignores there is a Gopher basketball player who went through the process and was cleared and is playing.

This isn't a cut and dried issue like some of the passionate serial extremists on both sides are claiming. EOAA didn't just develop out of a vacuum because those misguided progressives have their head up their ass. Read some articles on rape, sexual assault, its impact on women, and, while you're at it, brush up on what's happened at Tennessee, Baylor, Colorado, Florida State, and Nebraska. It's easy to say, "Let law enforcement and the judicial system handle it," but the fact of the matter is, they often don't handle it. Been reading quite a bit on this, and a balanced article pointed to the case of Christian Peter of Nebraska as providing the impetus for using Title IX.

The U has a process set up and pretty sure the EOAA people have training and guidelines. At the same time, there are obvious problems. One of the main ones is that the vagueness of the original directive left it up to universities and colleges to set up their own systems. So after the first bunch of lawsuits from women who sued under Title IX because they felt they weren't getting proper protection, there have been recent lawsuits from men who felt they were being improperly punished. The most notorious case involved Yale University and its basketball captain.

It's clear there has to be some changes. How much of that pertains to what is happening here, I have no idea. But if you're going to completely toss Title IX, then you better also institute better training for law enforcement, educate students, and somehow change the all around culture.

Be interesting to see what the Trump administration does with all of this. Have no idea if "Grab Them by the Pussy" will actually scrap this directive. Seems to me he might be a little vulnerable on this issue.

Honest question. Do you know the makeup of the EOAA staff and how they are chosen? Essentially, what qualifies them to be part of the committee?

 

[Pompous Elitist]

Oh, BS. You make statements like they are the literal truth and they are nowhere near it. Here's another one, "Thus this very recent trend to throw out of school any person even accused of a sexual harassment or assault claim, regardless of merit or evidence." Pretty much ignores there is a Gopher basketball player who went through the process and was cleared and is playing.

The EOAA at the U does not pursue claims when the accuser does not want to proceed, per Kimberly Hewitt. So I'm not sure what this proves. I stand by my statement.

This isn't a cut and dried issue like some of the passionate serial extremists on both sides are claiming. EOAA didn't just develop out of a vacuum because those misguided progressives have their head up their ass. Read some articles on rape, sexual assault, its impact on women, and, while you're at it, brush up on what's happened at Tennessee, Baylor, Colorado, Florida State, and Nebraska. It's easy to say, "Let law enforcement and the judicial system handle it," but the fact of the matter is, they often don't handle it. Been reading quite a bit on this, and a balanced article pointed to the case of Christian Peter of Nebraska as providing the impetus for using Title IX.

im very familiar with what's going on in regards to campus rape (a complex topic). I'm well aware that we have criminals on campus and crime in our society at large. That doesn't mean we ought to toss out of school any person accused of a nebulous harassment policy or sexual assault. Don't you see the difference?

The U has a process set up and pretty sure the EOAA people have training and guidelines. At the same time, there are obvious problems. One of the main ones is that the vagueness of the original directive left it up to universities and colleges to set up their own systems. So after the first bunch of lawsuits from women who sued under Title IX because they felt they weren't getting proper protection, there have been recent lawsuits from men who felt they were being improperly punished. The most notorious case involved Yale University and its basketball captain.

Yes.

It's clear there has to be some changes. How much of that pertains to what is happening here, I have no idea. But if you're going to completely toss Title IX, then you better also institute better training for law enforcement, educate students, and somehow change the all around culture.

Few are saying get rid of Title IX. It ought to be rolled back to its original intent and scope.

Be interesting to see what the Trump administration does with all of this. Have no idea if "Grab Them by the Pussy" will actually scrap this directive. Seems to me he might be a little vulnerable on this issue.

It is likely the mandates will be rolled back but the effect will be uneven. I think the issues of free speech, individual campus prosecutions will persist at many schools. All manner of political stripes agree the EEOA is wrong on this. It's not a left or right issue. I agree Trump cannot get away with actual sexual harassment and assault, if proven. His attitude is obviously very disrespectful.

.

 

[highwayman]

Honest question. Do you know the makeup of the EOAA staff and how they are chosen? Essentially, what qualifies them to be part of the committee?

Eight on staff. One man, seven women. Run with it.

https://diversity.umn.edu/eoaa/staff

 

[nsmike]

The problem is that the things are set up the EOAA ends up being, Judge , Jury and executioner. There are better processes, if you emulate Federal Administrative procedure, the EOAA acting for the complainant, full representation by the respondent, in a hearing before an outside Examiner (administrative judge). You would have a much fairer process

 

[gophmeister]

When I was at the U in he early 90s a roommate's friend got expelled for stalking and plagiarism all in one quarter. I wish I could remember how he explained away the stalking. I just remember he was following her hoping to bump into here coincidentally. I found out because he couldn't go to a party with us because it was too close to where she lived. Anyway, point is there has been a student conduct review board or whatever they call it for a long time and it has been handling cases like this all along.

 

[Gold Vision]

Wow, another thread of old time wisdom.


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+1. This board is toxic.

 

[SJUgopher]

Let's condone all rape just in case it somehow impacts our football team!

 

[Vandy]

Let's condone all rape just in case it somehow impacts our football team!

Please quote us one example of someone definitively "condoning" rape on this board. ONE.

 

[Deleted_User]

This is a complex issue and it's hard for me to take a strong stand either way on the topic without truly understanding the full extent of their process and the power they have to dictate punishment. But if it is a given that they do have an appropriate process and they do have the power to either dictate or suggest punishment, where it starts for me is... Who are these people? Are they elected to their positions? Are they inherently biased for one reason or another? I don't know the answers to these questions. Thus, it makes me skeptical. Even with a perfect proces it can't help you if those running it are flawed.

The entire process is transparent, just like any other state process. It is published, open, and easily available to all students, staff and faculty to examine. And, as all policy is determined by the board of trustees, appointed positions from politicians, no less, then the source of power is from the state. And, the source of power for the whole process is derived from both federal and state authority. The EOAA is not the sole arbiter of "punishment", a term I would not choose to use in this instance as it really does not describe the outcome.

From a political philosophy perspective, anybody who joins the U as a student or staff agrees to and consents to these rules upon acceptance. So, be careful what you think is objectionable after the fact. In other words, buyer beware. And, if we go with the free market approach, then you need to look for a non federally funded school to avoid the Cleary Act, not that it fully frees a person from the equivalent of the EOAA at another school. You may find, they have even tighter codes of conduct, with even more adverse outcomes.