Shortell

[e.bigelow]

Yeah, I don't think we won any Big 10 games with Shortell.

Shortell did beat WMU and Syracuse though, which are probably better football teams than Purdue and Illinois.

Good point, Bob. I would say Syracuse was better than both Purdue and Illinois. WMU was better than Illinois last year and probably close to a wash with Purdue.

So hard to say about what to expect in the B1G Ten games w/Shortell. Looked great against 'Cuse and WMU. Then looked awful against Iowa. I think the thing for Max was to limit mistakes during the game for his confidence. It seems like when he made one, i.e. Iowa game, he compounded them by trying to force things. Certainly hope he finds a place to get the situation he is looking for that is best for him! Best of luck to him!

 

[Tim Riggins]

[/B]

Good point, Bob. I would say Syracuse was better than both Purdue and Illinois. WMU was better than Illinois last year and probably close to a wash with Purdue.

So hard to say about what to expect in the B1G Ten games w/Shortell. Looked great against 'Cuse and WMU. Then looked awful against Iowa. I think the thing for Max was to limit mistakes during the game for his confidence. It seems like when he made one, i.e. Iowa game, he compounded them by trying to force things. Certainly hope he finds a place to get the situation he is looking for that is best for him! Best of luck to him!

Illinois did beat Western Michigan opening weekend.

 

[e.bigelow]

Illinois did beat Western Michigan opening weekend.

Dang, that's right. I forgot about that. Thanks for pointing that out! I would say overall though, after the season, WMU was probably the better team, although, not by much.

But, they are probably a wash as well. I don't know.

 

[Ogee Ogilthorpe]

[/B]

Good point, Bob. I would say Syracuse was better than both Purdue and Illinois. WMU was better than Illinois last year and probably close to a wash with Purdue.

So hard to say about what to expect in the B1G Ten games w/Shortell. Looked great against 'Cuse and WMU. Then looked awful against Iowa. I think the thing for Max was to limit mistakes during the game for his confidence. It seems like when he made one, i.e. Iowa game, he compounded them by trying to force things. Certainly hope he finds a place to get the situation he is looking for that is best for him! Best of luck to him!

Safe to say the entire team looked awful against Iowa, mostly because the game got so out of hand so fast. It was the first real adversity the team had faced all season to that point. As far as Big Ten games in general, it's tough to get a good gauge on what Shortell could/would have done as the only Big Ten games he started and finished in two years of action were road games against Michigan and Iowa. One thing is for sure, Nelson did something neither Shortell nor Gray were ever able to achieve; win a Big Ten road game.

It's strange how easy it is to look at games and performances from two different perspectives; statistically, and the eyeball test.

Against UNLV, STATISTICALLY, Gray had a solid game at QB, but from the eyeball test, most people that watched thought he was dreadful.

Against Iowa, Statistically, Shortell was solid (20-for-33 for 200 yards and 2 TD's; along with 3 picks, two of which were on the WR), but according to the eyeball test, it looked like he struggled big time.

Tough seeing Max go, but I think they're in good hands with Nelson. Nelson really showed me a few things in the bowl game. He knows how to play the position and how to make plays from the QB position. He's only going to get better, and an ever-improving Offensive Line is going to help him out a TON over the next few years.

 

[wait!what?]

Shortell leaving now just seems coincidentally at the same time as AJ. i wonder if those 2 were close?

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Shortell leaving now just seems coincidentally at the same time as AJ. i wonder if those 2 were close?

He said it had nothing to do with AJ Barker and he also said that he likes Coach Kill, so I highley doubt it. If he was in the AJ Barker Camp, he wouldn't have gone out with dignity.

Now is the obvious time for him to leave. He has 3 years to play 2, so he can go to a program and RS and still have two full years. That's almost ideal for any program wanting to add a transfer QB.

 

[e.bigelow]

Safe to say the entire team looked awful against Iowa, mostly because the game got so out of hand so fast. It was the first real adversity the team had faced all season to that point. As far as Big Ten games in general, it's tough to get a good gauge on what Shortell could/would have done as the only Big Ten games he started and finished in two years of action were road games against Michigan and Iowa. One thing is for sure, Nelson did something neither Shortell nor Gray were ever able to achieve; win a Big Ten road game.

It's strange how easy it is to look at games and performances from two different perspectives; statistically, and the eyeball test.

Against UNLV, STATISTICALLY, Gray had a solid game at QB, but from the eyeball test, most people that watched thought he was dreadful.

Against Iowa, Statistically, Shortell was solid (20-for-33 for 200 yards and 2 TD's; along with 3 picks, two of which were on the WR), but according to the eyeball test, it looked like he struggled big time.

Tough seeing Max go, but I think they're in good hands with Nelson. Nelson really showed me a few things in the bowl game. He knows how to play the position and how to make plays from the QB position. He's only going to get better, and an ever-improving Offensive Line is going to help him out a TON over the next few years.

I mostly agree with you Ogee. The only part I disagree with you on is the Max having a statiscally solid game against Iowa. 3 picks, for me doesn't classifie a good game in my opinion. Others are free to think otherwise, but 2 TD's w/3 picks doesn't do it for me.

So really, we just disagree on symantecs.

 

[Killjoy]

I mostly agree with you Ogee. The only part I disagree with you on is the Max having a statiscally solid game against Iowa. 3 picks, for me doesn't classifie a good game in my opinion. Others are free to think otherwise, but 2 TD's w/3 picks doesn't do it for me.

So really, we just disagree on symantecs.

Really? Since when is three picks symantecs? Now whether it is semantics that is a whole different question.

 

[Ogee Ogilthorpe]

I mostly agree with you Ogee. The only part I disagree with you on is the Max having a statiscally solid game against Iowa. 3 picks, for me doesn't classifie a good game in my opinion. Others are free to think otherwise, but 2 TD's w/3 picks doesn't do it for me.

So really, we just disagree on symantecs.

I said statistically solid, not good. Minor differentiation. At any rate, 20-for-33 from his predecessor would have been considered Heisman worthy by some. In some ways, you're kind of making my point. On PAPER, no doubt, 3 picks jumps out at you; watching the game, 2 of those were situations where the WR just flat out didn't make a play. The third was a poor read, poor throw, just a dumpster fire play on all accounts.

My point; not all completion percentages are created equal, not all TD passes are created equal, and not all INT's are created equal.

 

[btowngopher]

Possible. I should have said I don't see him being in the picture for an every down QB.

It'll be interesting to see if they bring him in next year as a change of pace "Wildcat" guy. Or have him change positions. I hope they can get something out of him...

I thought this was sorta the reason Kill brought him in in the first place.

 

[e.bigelow]

I said statistically solid, not good. Minor differentiation. At any rate, 20-for-33 from his predecessor would have been considered Heisman worthy by some. In some ways, you're kind of making my point. On PAPER, no doubt, 3 picks jumps out at you; watching the game, 2 of those were situations where the WR just flat out didn't make a play. The third was a poor read, poor throw, just a dumpster fire play on all accounts.

My point; not all completion percentages are created equal, not all TD passes are created equal, and not all INT's are created equal.

Fair enough.

 

[GophersInIowa]

Against UNLV, STATISTICALLY, Gray had a solid game at QB, but from the eyeball test, most people that watched thought he was dreadful.

I don't want to sidetrack this thread, but I think Gray was dreadful at times in that game, but pretty dang good at other times. That would make his play average in my opinion. Not great, but not dreadful overall either.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

I don't want to sidetrack this thread, but I think Gray was dreadful at times in that game, but pretty dang good at other times. That would make his play average in my opinion. Not great, but not dreadful overall either.

Gray is one of those guys that when he makes bad plays, they look really bad. What I mean is that he was good with the ball in his hands, that often people would be wide open. When he'd hit the wide open receivers, people would say things like...well, the guy was wide open. When he missed them, he'd get ostrasized for missing the wide open receiver.

However, the critics failed to realize that he should get credit for putting the kind of pressure he did on a defense, that allowed some of those players to be wide open.

We ran the ball better with him in the game than Shortell because Shortell was no threat at all to run the ball. Now, Shortell would have done fine if our OL would have developed to a point where we could just lineup and run the ball at will. However, when a team had to watch for Gray....those 3rd and 9's became 3rd and 3s, those PA's worked better, etc. In an ideal world, we could have had Gray in the game up until the moment he released the ball, hit pause on reality and let Max actually make the throw.

My point is that Gray missed more open receivers, but he also got a lot more open receivers because of HIS talents.

 

[Sportsfan24]

Here's my two cents:

Bob Loblaw is on point about Gray. His talents as a QB where with him having the ball in his hands. However he was the opposite of making other players better; in fact he made them irrelevant at best. Because teams crowded the line of scrimmage there was never any real hope of a run game from the running backs. As to the passing game, Jerry Rice and Randy Moss in their prime would have looked ordinary.

Nelson? He certainly didn't out play either Gray or Max, and I will admit I hated the move to play Nelson. Why? Because I believe that playing time should be earned and not given. Here's the problem with that. None of the three ever earned their playing time, they all were inserted. Gray was named the starter after a pretend competition, Shortell was named backup the moment he arrived on campus and subsequently elevated to starter when Gray struggled or was hurt. Nelson went from red shirt to starter leap frogging every QB on the roster. I guarantee when removing his redshirt was being discussed between the player/parents and staff it was understood that he would get every opportunity (would not be pulled) to develop.

From a program (that’s slang for contract extension for the coach) standpoint, Kill did the right thing. This team will be better long term with the playing time and development Nelson received last season. Everything I have heard and saw says Nelson is going to be a good to great QB (low floor, high ceiling).

From Shortell's standpoint his career as a gopher was over the moment that decision was made (remove Nelson red shirt). As to his future, Shortell is a good QB in my opinion and I predict he will have a very good college career somewhere. Folks are assuming he doesn't have a place to land because he is not discussing it with them. Max will be fine.

Write it down; five years from now folks will be shocked to learn or remember that all 3 of these players are former gophers, let alone were on the team at the same time.

At the end of the day Kill is making the best decisions for the long-term health of the program. This is why I have stated time after time that I believe Kill will be successful here; he has more than enough jerk (also known as making the hard decisions) in him to look someone in the face and figuratively say "sucks being you but the program will be better for it."

I had to edit! That’s what I get from writing at 5 in the morning while in the……office. Come on you know you all do it!

 

[wait!what?]

SF24 is on the money.

I fully concur. i think you nailed the 2012 UofM QB saga.

 

[Ogee Ogilthorpe]

Here's my two cents:

Bob Loblaw is on point about Gray. His talents as a QB where with him having the ball in his hands. However he was the opposite of making other players better; in fact he made them irrelevant at best. Because teams crowed the line of scrimmage there was never any real hope of a run game from the running backs. As to the passing game, Jerry Rice and Randy Moss in their prime would have looked ordinary.

Nelson? He certainly didn't out play either Gray or Max, and I will admit I hated the move to play Nelson. Why? Because I believe that playing time should be earned and not given. Here's the problem with that. None of the three ever earned their playing time, they all were inserted. Gray was named the starter after a pretend competition, Shortell was named backup the moment he
arrived on campus and subsequently elevated to starter when Gray struggled or was hurt. Nelson
went from red shirt to starter leaping frogging every QB on the roster. I guarantee you when
that was being discussed between the player/parents and staff it was understood that he would
get every opportunity (would not be pulled) to develop.

From a program (thats slang for contract extension for the coach) standpoint, Kill did the right
thing. This team will be better long term with the playing time and development Nelson received
last season. Everything I have heard and saw says Nelson is going to be a good to great QB (low
floor, high ceiling).

From Shortell's standpoint his career as a gopher was over the moment that decision was made.
As to his future, Shortell is a good QB in my opinion and I predict he will have a very good
college career somewhere. Folks are assuming he doesn't have a place to land because he is not
discussing it with them. Max will be fine.

Write it down, five years from now folks will be shocked to learn or remember that at one time they had all 3 of these players are former gophers, let alone were on the team at the same time.

At the end of the day Kill is making the best decisions for the longterm health of the program. This is why I have stated time after time that I believe Kill will be successful here; he has more than enough jerk (also know as making the hard decisions) in him to look someone in the face and figuratively say "sucks being you but the program will be better for it."

Very well put, pretty much from start to finish. I particularly agree with the reference to where Max ends up. I'm absolutely baffled by the people who have implied that he left the program without a plan, not very well thought out, etc. just because he hasn't told any of US what his plans are. Good grief, that's beyond stupid.

Also very well stated that Gray made NOBODY better around him. I know there will be plenty of fans who will take to the grave that he would have been SOOOOO much better if he'd played QB exclusively from Day One but I'm just not buying it. You either have it or you don't and he just didnt' have it. Would he have been better? Yes, he would have been a little better, but not enough to lead a Big Ten program with any aspirations.

Thank the good Lord that this era is finally come to a merciful end; Gray, Max, et al.... I think they're in good hands moving forward. As a true FR in just 6-7 starts, Nelson showed some things that Gray was never capable of, and with a mobility that Max was never capable of. I don't know if he'll be elite, but Nelson looks like a really good fit for what Kill and Limegrover want to do offensively.

 

[e.bigelow]

Here's my two cents:

Bob Loblaw is on point about Gray. His talents as a QB where with him having the ball in his hands. However he was the opposite of making other players better; in fact he made them irrelevant at best. Because teams crowed the line of scrimmage there was never any real hope of a run game from the running backs. As to the passing game, Jerry Rice and Randy Moss in their prime would have looked ordinary.

Nelson? He certainly didn't out play either Gray or Max, and I will admit I hated the move to play Nelson. Why? Because I believe that playing time should be earned and not given. Here's the problem with that. None of the three ever earned their playing time, they all were inserted. Gray was named the starter after a pretend competition, Shortell was named backup the moment he
arrived on campus and subsequently elevated to starter when Gray struggled or was hurt. Nelson
went from red shirt to starter leaping frogging every QB on the roster. I guarantee you when
that was being discussed between the player/parents and staff it was understood that he would
get every opportunity (would not be pulled) to develop.

From a program (thats slang for contract extension for the coach) standpoint, Kill did the right
thing. This team will be better long term with the playing time and development Nelson received
last season. Everything I have heard and saw says Nelson is going to be a good to great QB (low
floor, high ceiling).

From Shortell's standpoint his career as a gopher was over the moment that decision was made.
As to his future, Shortell is a good QB in my opinion and I predict he will have a very good
college career somewhere. Folks are assuming he doesn't have a place to land because he is not
discussing it with them. Max will be fine.

Write it down, five years from now folks will be shocked to learn or remember that at one time they had all 3 of these players are former gophers, let alone were on the team at the same time.

At the end of the day Kill is making the best decisions for the longterm health of the program. This is why I have stated time after time that I believe Kill will be successful here; he has more than enough jerk (also know as making the hard decisions) in him to look someone in the face and figuratively say "sucks being you but the program will be better for it."

I think I have to agree with everything you said in here. Nice work!

 

[Rescooter]

Very well put, pretty much from start to finish. I particularly agree with the reference to where Max ends up. I'm absolutely baffled by the people who have implied that he left the program without a plan, not very well thought out, etc. just because he hasn't told any of US what his plans are. Good grief, that's beyond stupid.

Also very well stated that Gray made NOBODY better around him. I know there will be plenty of fans who will take to the grave that he would have been SOOOOO much better if he'd played QB exclusively from Day One but I'm just not buying it. You either have it or you don't and he just didnt' have it. Would he have been better? Yes, he would have been a little better, but not enough to lead a Big Ten program with any aspirations.

Thank the good Lord that this era is finally come to a merciful end; Gray, Max, et al.... I think they're in good hands moving forward. As a true FR in just 6-7 starts, Nelson showed some things that Gray was never capable of, and with a mobility that Max was never capable of. I don't know if he'll be elite, but Nelson looks like a really good fit for what Kill and Limegrover want to do offensively.

Yes, highfives (or +1) to Sportfan24 and OgeeOglethorpe. Good information and commentary.

Quarterbacks (especially true Freshmen) rarely make a splash their first year. There are exceptions, but the speed of the game along with timing and complicated play execution is very different. It's been well said that the big jump in skill and productivity is between the Sophmore and Junior year. Perhaps Nelson will show it in his Sophmore season, but I'm looking for 2014 to be a banner year for him.

If any of you attended the spring game, Nelson threw a ball to Crawford-Tufts. I could tell by how the play developed that Nelson was in his realm. The problem was, he was 1/2 step BEHIND DCT. Such was the case with his first few games, but he quickly compensated and looked good in his last few games. I'm not saying we have a Heisman Candidate or even an All-Big 10 caliber QB in Nelson, but he's really good. Just a little green.

Yes, Shortell is smart enough to read the writing on the wall and will end up in a system that fits him. He's a great kid, but does not fit the Jerry Kill System as closely as Nelson.

We'll be fine at QB for the next 3-years if Nelson can stay healthy.