Shooter: Minnesota, conceptually, has considered either renovating Williams Arena or building a new arena in the parking lots north of arena

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GopherWeatherGuy said:
I don't disagree with anything you wrote. And they could still get back to that size of crowds on a semi-regular basis, but that still doesn't necessarily make it a great game experience every night. A smaller, modern venue is much more likely to make it a great, more consistent experience even in the down years.

The best thing the U did when building the football stadium was to not try and compete with the other behemoth stadiums around the conference. TCF/Huntington Bank Stadium is perfect for Minnesota, a great experience, yet it's the 2nd smallest stadium in the conference.
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...but expandable: structurally built for another level on the side opposite the boxes. Not that a basketball arena can be expandable...which is precisely the point: it's not. So you have to be careful and make sure you're not shooting yourself in the foot by artificially building it smaller to make it be more full.
 

MplsGopher said:
If I had a magic genie, I would completely tear down Williams and the Pav and build a new, single multi-purpose arena on the overall site.

Could do a "lower bowl only" config with let's say 5-6k, and then add in the "upper bowl config" to get up to 10-12k.

All arena sports make due with a combination of Mariucci and Ridder for a season or two.
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I’d rather see it stay, with a complete renovation of both The Pav and Williams. Have some of the area between the two be suites with views to both
Northwestern did it and I think we should as well.
Use Mariucci and Ridder for the sports displaced during the renovation
 

- Just renovate.

- Find a design that works or find a new designer

- Move the Pavilion out of the building completely if needed (The parking lot to the north is open).

- Recenter the court and add amenities and bathrooms on each ends on both levels

- Don't worry if people need to walk to the ends for food or bathrooms (its a basketball court not a football field). Just make it killer once you get to the ends.

- Add space per seat/reduce capacity

- I don't care about suites, at all. Who is really worried about suites here except for maybe Coyle?

- OK, if you really need some suites add them between the girders/obstructed views on the west side and remove the concessions - make the suites small but unique. Make Coyle fill them before we consider buying any more for him.

-Blow out the west entrance and add some concessions on both levels where the media parking is. (why not do this today?)

- Keep some bench seats especially for the student section and the corners - discount them

- Get rid of the skydeck suites - last time I was up there was Monson's last game. Never going back. (wait, I changed my mind - glass them in and sell the tickets to opposing teams like Wisconsin Fans - that would be freaking awesome!)

- Keep it quirky and imperfect and retain the old bones of the structure so our great grandkids will be talking about a 150 YO venue instead of 100. Plus the negative people here will need something to complain about when we are accruing BigTen Championships.

-Finally, don't worry about getting players because we didn't build a dumb new arena (which everyone will be trying to replace again in 30 years). We will not lose a single player, ever (really). ...but what about "such and such" team gets killer players in their new venue - Nope Will not make a bit of difference here or there. ....but what about that one prospect that said he didn't like Williams Arena before he went to Duke - Nope, he was never coming here anyway. Will not matter, ever (REALLY! - EVER!). A new venue is probably a negative for recruiting.
 


I just read this whole thread, and I think it completely misses the point of what's really necessary, to be honest. The entire college landscape is changing rapidly. The "arms race" of facilities is going to be coming to a close, in my opinion. Now, does that mean we shouldn't look at Williams Arena for the purposes of making things better for the fan experience? Absolutely not. However, if we're talking $200 million+ to improve the program, I'd far prefer we find ways to get that into NIL funding than in facility improvement. Otherwise, we're going to have a new arena with the fanciest cupholders in town, and a 13th place team playing in it.

With that said, if something were to be done, I've always said that there is room to add an atrium (think Lambeau Field) to the southeast corner of the building. This could be a multi-level addition that could create either direct access or a walkway (on the North side) to two-level level concessions and restrooms, as well as breathing room to walk and elevator access. The only area that would have smaller walkways would be the north side, but relief to the rest of the building would create less walkway space. I'm no architect, but I've included a screenshot of the space it could add, which is quite large, without hardly touching the actual arena. This also opens up opportunities to add ADA seating to the upper levels on the South and East seating areas.

I've been to Hinkle Fieldhouse, and I've been to Cameron Indoor Stadium. Anyone who thinks teams can't win in old facilities is fooling themselves. The concourses at Duke are about 2/3 the width of the Barn, and you sit in a wooden chair. Hinkle is renovated, but it's still exposed brick in the concourses, and there's not really all that much extra space under the seating. With that said, the Barn does need some improvements, and I think they can be done, but an arena is not going to be the ultimate solution, be it new or renovated.

I think we're trying to solve a problem when a much bigger one is out there. The era of NIL is clearly upon us. The money needs to go there.
 

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GopherWeatherGuy said:
I don't disagree with anything you wrote. And they could still get back to that size of crowds on a semi-regular basis, but that still doesn't necessarily make it a great game experience every night. A smaller, modern venue is much more likely to make it a great, more consistent experience even in the down years.

The best thing the U did when building the football stadium was to not try and compete with the other behemoth stadiums around the conference. TCF/Huntington Bank Stadium is perfect for Minnesota, a great experience, yet it's the 2nd smallest stadium in the conference.
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Agree 100%.

"Rightsizing" should be required for any new or largely renovated facility. We should not even try to "compete" with the maximum capacities of the league's blue bloods. We have way too much competition in the Twin Cities for (sports) entertainment.
 

alltimetwinsfan said:
I just read this whole thread, and I think it completely misses the point of what's really necessary, to be honest. The entire college landscape is changing rapidly. The "arms race" of facilities is going to be coming to a close, in my opinion. Now, does that mean we shouldn't look at Williams Arena for the purposes of making things better for the fan experience? Absolutely not. However, if we're talking $200 million+ to improve the program, I'd far prefer we find ways to get that into NIL funding than in facility improvement. Otherwise, we're going to have a new arena with the fanciest cupholders in town, and a 13th place team playing in it.

With that said, if something were to be done, I've always said that there is room to add an atrium (think Lambeau Field) to the southeast corner of the building. This could be a multi-level addition that could create either direct access or a walkway (on the North side) to two-level level concessions and restrooms, as well as breathing room to walk and elevator access. The only area that would have smaller walkways would be the north side, but relief to the rest of the building would create less walkway space. I'm no architect, but I've included a screenshot of the space it could add, which is quite large, without hardly touching the actual arena. This also opens up opportunities to add ADA seating to the upper levels on the South and East seating areas.

I've been to Hinkle Fieldhouse, and I've been to Cameron Indoor Stadium. Anyone who thinks teams can't win in old facilities is fooling themselves. The concourses at Duke are about 2/3 the width of the Barn, and you sit in a wooden chair. Hinkle is renovated, but it's still exposed brick in the concourses, and there's not really all that much extra space under the seating. With that said, the Barn does need some improvements, and I think they can be done, but an arena is not going to be the ultimate solution, be it new or renovated.

I think we're trying to solve a problem when a much bigger one is out there. The era of NIL is clearly upon us. The money needs to go there.
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Honestly a shared arena with the Wolves probably makes sense, even though no one wants that.
 

I like Williams arena, but I don't know how you renevate the various seats where the game is unviewable
 










Think this way: There's only so much space. How do you want to use that valuable space? More seats gobble that prime space. The more seats are rarely used.

First take care of the game experience for the first 10,000-11,000 by deploying valuable space for their game experience. Ax the extra seats in favor of using space better than seats that are not used. If absolutely needed for some national event, the Target Center seats 20,000.

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As I said when the post was first posted, who's going to pay for this? Funding is hard to get. I doubt this happens anytime soon.
 

I see a number of people saying get rid of the Pavilion.

If you do that - what do you do with the Volleyball program? from what I hear, the Pav is exactly the size that VB wants, for creating a better atmosphere at matches. moving VB into Williams would mean a half-full building - not to mention creating issues for practice time, etc.

I know VB was down a little this last season, but over the years, it has been one of the more successful athletic programs at MN. so the VB community would kick up a ruckus if they lost "their" arena.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
I see a number of people saying get rid of the Pavilion.

If you do that - what do you do with the Volleyball program? from what I hear, the Pav is exactly the size that VB wants, for creating a better atmosphere at matches. moving VB into Williams would mean a half-full building - not to mention creating issues for practice time, etc.

I know VB was down a little this last season, but over the years, it has been one of the more successful athletic programs at MN. so the VB community would kick up a ruckus if they lost "their" arena.
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Rebuild for both. Need both. The Pav is used for wrestling, gymnastics, volleyball... Maybe the two arenas/gyms would share a common entrance and initial sense of amenities, first impression and security screening. Think of the total space available and maximize it for the fan experience.

If you were to use the current building you have to get rid of those pillars at the ends of the basketball court in Williams Arena. Basically, gut the inside of the building. Then push the concourses inward towards the court to make the concourses wider. That's where you make money, in the concourses. If people are trapped in long lines or stuck from walking around, then you lose revenue. Get rid of some of the seats in Williams Arena and push the concourses in. That also gives you more room for more restrooms. Rearrange the main entrances.

Make the decor a blend of warm earthtones with modern stone/glass/video. Think Tuscan sunrise building feeling with social media vibe accents. A bad mistake is to go all cold colors.

Please keep the raised floor.

Who pays for this? I doubt this actually happens.
 

I see Damian Johnson on Twitter repeatedly advocating for a new building. Lots of opinions I've seen, evenly divided between renovation and replacement. One way or another, the athletic department seems serious about this, which is the overall good news.

My concern is that a feasibility study is going to find too many difficulties and obstacles to keeping the old place, most prominently the confined footprint because of the streets. I'm here to say that that doesn't have to be a roadblock (pardon the pun). If people want to keep Williams Arena, there are ways.
 

I don't have strong feelings one way or the other about renovation vs. new building. Understandably what most of us are talking about is the fan experience, since that's what we are -- fans. That being said:

About 8 years ago I was able to get a tour and with that I was able to get into the home locker room. There were no corners cut there: finger scan system to get access via frosted glass door, barber shop area with barber chair, lounge area, snack area, lockers and lighting were very up-to-date. If Pitino wanted it, it sounded like he got it. It was not your middle school gym locker room. I'm guessing the footprint is the only limiting factor. They knew that it was a huge recruiting and retention element and I'm guessing it is on par with any other Big Ten locker room.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
I see a number of people saying get rid of the Pavilion.

If you do that - what do you do with the Volleyball program? from what I hear, the Pav is exactly the size that VB wants, for creating a better atmosphere at matches. moving VB into Williams would mean a half-full building - not to mention creating issues for practice time, etc.

I know VB was down a little this last season, but over the years, it has been one of the more successful athletic programs at MN. so the VB community would kick up a ruckus if they lost "their" arena.
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The current footprint of the PAV and Williams is likely smaller than a new $10,000 seat arena with proper amenities. Likely would need a new practice facility built in place of the PAV.
 

MaxyJR1 said:
The current footprint of the PAV and Williams is likely smaller than a new $10,000 seat arena with proper amenities. Likely would need a new practice facility built in place of the PAV.
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What I'm saying is more of a political argument.

If the U announces plans to renovate or replace Williams, and that plan does away with the space used by the volleyball program, then that space has to be replaced somehow to provide a new home for volleyball. otherwise, when the U goes out in search of funding for its plan, the VB supporters will be screaming bloody murder, and that will make fund-raising a lot more difficult.

so, if the U wants support for the plan - and funding for the plan - that plan has to accommodate VB. if there is not enough space on the current footprint, then they have to look at different locations.

in terms of public relations and fund-raising, the U cannot say "hey, we're going to provide a new home for basketball, and in the process, we're going to screw over one of the most successful programs in the athletic department." that would be dead on arrival.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
What I'm saying is more of a political argument.

If the U announces plans to renovate or replace Williams, and that plan does away with the space used by the volleyball program, then that space has to be replaced somehow to provide a new home for volleyball. otherwise, when the U goes out in search of funding for its plan, the VB supporters will be screaming bloody murder, and that will make fund-raising a lot more difficult.

so, if the U wants support for the plan - and funding for the plan - that plan has to accommodate VB. if there is not enough space on the current footprint, then they have to look at different locations.

in terms of public relations and fund-raising, the U cannot say "hey, we're going to provide a new home for basketball, and in the process, we're going to screw over one of the most successful programs in the athletic department." that would be dead on arrival.
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Agree 100% and I don't see a new arena that doesn't also hold VB matches and possibly wrestling. However, if they renovate than possibly the PAV isn't touched.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
I see a number of people saying get rid of the Pavilion.

If you do that - what do you do with the Volleyball program? from what I hear, the Pav is exactly the size that VB wants, for creating a better atmosphere at matches. moving VB into Williams would mean a half-full building - not to mention creating issues for practice time, etc.

I know VB was down a little this last season, but over the years, it has been one of the more successful athletic programs at MN. so the VB community would kick up a ruckus if they lost "their" arena.
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MaxyJR1 said:
The current footprint of the PAV and Williams is likely smaller than a new $10,000 seat arena with proper amenities. Likely would need a new practice facility built in place of the PAV.
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Could Ridder Arena be retrofitted to serve the same purpose as the PAV (which also used to be an ice rink)? I don't see the need of having 2 ice rinks, especially with the men shrinking the size of the New Mariucci ice sheet, which was one of the reasons that drove Ridder in the first place.

I wonder if the Ridder family would need to sign off on any change. No idea how that works with donations that resulted in naming rights.
 

Ope3 said:
Could Ridder Arena be retrofitted to serve the same purpose as the PAV (which also used to be an ice rink)? I don't see the need of having 2 ice rinks, especially with the men shrinking the size of the New Mariucci ice sheet, which was one of the reasons that drove Ridder in the first place.

I wonder if the Ridder family would need to sign off on any change. No idea how that works with donations that resulted in naming rights.
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that thought crossed my mind.

I think the issue would be one of scheduling. If the women's and men's hockey teams were going to share one facility, then who decides which team gets to practice when? it would also make scheduling of games a lot more tricky.

plus with Title IX and all, if the U "tried to take away the Women's ice rink," the hue and cry from the women's sports community would be pretty damn loud.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
that thought crossed my mind.

I think the issue would be one of scheduling. If the women's and men's hockey teams were going to share one facility, then who decides which team gets to practice when? it would also make scheduling of games a lot more tricky.

plus with Title IX and all, if the U "tried to take away the Women's ice rink," the hue and cry from the women's sports community would be pretty damn loud.
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I am sure those would be obstacles, but I doubt insurmountable. I am guessing the number of schools that have Men's & Women's teams with multiple ice arenas rinks is rather limited. Just guessing, there.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
What I'm saying is more of a political argument.

If the U announces plans to renovate or replace Williams, and that plan does away with the space used by the volleyball program, then that space has to be replaced somehow to provide a new home for volleyball. otherwise, when the U goes out in search of funding for its plan, the VB supporters will be screaming bloody murder, and that will make fund-raising a lot more difficult.

so, if the U wants support for the plan - and funding for the plan - that plan has to accommodate VB. if there is not enough space on the current footprint, then they have to look at different locations.

in terms of public relations and fund-raising, the U cannot say "hey, we're going to provide a new home for basketball, and in the process, we're going to screw over one of the most successful programs in the athletic department." that would be dead on arrival.
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Need a new volleyball arena? Bring in Brett Favre, he has a way of getting those built.
 

Run for the hills if Coyle interviews a contractor who has never done a project like this, then cancels interviews with more experienced contractors because he was blown away in the interview.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
if the U "tried to take away the Women's ice rink," the hue and cry from the women's sports community would be pretty damn loud.
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Absolutely. Remember when the plan was to have the state girls tournament at Ridder and holy hell was raised to move it to the X because that's where the boys play? Even though it's a matter of supply and demand as the X is empty for the girls tournament.

Plus, I'd guess that Ridder is used a lot more than just for the Gopher women. Ice time is still at a premium in the metro.
 

disco said:
Absolutely. Remember when the plan was to have the state girls tournament at Ridder and holy hell was raised to move it to the X because that's where the boys play? Even though it's a matter of supply and demand as the X is empty for the girls tournament.

Plus, I'd guess that Ridder is used a lot more than just for the Gopher women. Ice time is still at a premium in the metro.
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Different subject, but I'm not sure ice is at a premium in MN. Prime time might be. MN teams pay about 1/3 of what hockey programs in other states pay for ice. It's a rite of passage for every community in MN to have ICE. Can't get prime time or the times you want, just go cry to your City and get another sheet built that is a huge money drain subsidized by the taxpayers. If only basketball was treated the same way.
 

disco said:
Absolutely. Remember when the plan was to have the state girls tournament at Ridder and holy hell was raised to move it to the X because that's where the boys play? Even though it's a matter of supply and demand as the X is empty for the girls tournament.

Plus, I'd guess that Ridder is used a lot more than just for the Gopher women. Ice time is still at a premium in the metro.
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Using the Girls HS Tourney for reference, then wouldn't the women want to play in Mariucci to be "on par" with the men? Just kidding. Can't please everyone.

I do think you are right that Ridder is probably a revenue producer, albeit modestly in the grand scheme of the overall Athletic Dept budget.
 

MaxyJR1 said:
Different subject, but I'm not sure ice is at a premium in MN. Prime time might be. MN teams pay about 1/3 of what hockey programs in other states pay for ice. It's a rite of passage for every community in MN to have ICE. Can't get prime time or the times you want, just go cry to your City and get another sheet built that is a huge money drain subsidized by the taxpayers. If only basketball was treated the same way.
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getting off-track but -

back in the days when the Gopher Men's hockey team still played in Williams (now the Pavillion) - the ice didn't get put into that area until right before the start of the season. So the Gophers would go to other rinks for early-season practices.

in 1974, Augsburg built its on-campus rink with two sheets of ice, and they had lots of college and HS teams looking for ice time. Herb Brooks had the Gophers practicing at Augsburg before the ice went in at Williams. I was doing a work-study job at the ice arena and so I got to B.S. with Herbie before and after Gopher practices. He was not shy about offering his opinions.

P.S. - according to a site that tracks ice rentals, the Augsburg Arena is currently renting ice time for $215 an hour.
 

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