Shooter: In order to recruit on an elite national men’s basketball level, Gophers will need NIL deals of $300K/year for several players

BarnBurner

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I made the mistake of taking off the ignore feature to see what another poster had responded to. I forgot all about you, BB! What a pleasant last few months it has been!

The U can't do anything right so I highly recommend going to the Duke Blue Devils board! Can I pay you enough in NIL to make that happen?!
Oh ecosport, hope you are well!!!

Nah, cant stand Duke. Prefer MN.

MN needs to learn to play with the blue bloods - you know, play the games before the games start. Thus far, EPIC failure.
 

ecoperson

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Oh ecosport, hope you are well!!!

Nah, cant stand Duke. Prefer MN.

MN needs to learn to play with the blue bloods - you know, play the games before the games start. Thus far, EPIC failure.
Do we really know that we are far behind other Power 5 teams? I hear about the rare outliers but I guess I honestly haven't heard if the Wisconsins and Iowas of the world are doing things appreciably different. Any insights?
 

BarnBurner

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Do we really know that we are far behind other Power 5 teams? I hear about the rare outliers but I guess I honestly haven't heard if the Wisconsins and Iowas of the world are doing things appreciably different. Any insights?
Well, we know for certain while the blue bloods were busy manipulating the new rules, mn was still saying “ we can’t because “.

In terms of winning, yes Mn is far behind. No other way to look at it.
 

ecoperson

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Well, we know for certain while the blue bloods were busy manipulating the new rules, mn was still saying “ we can’t because “.

In terms of winning, yes Mn is far behind. No other way to look at it.
I tried, BB. Just looking for fact vs. perception on NIL. As far as we know, the Gophers are offering HUGE NIL but the 'cruits are still saying NO. They sure aren't going to publicize that! Interestingly, that factoid would suit your narrative that Gopher basketball is a lost cause under the current regime better. I will check in with you again the next time I turn off the ignore feature!
 

GopherBlood666

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I tried, BB. Just looking for fact vs. perception on NIL. As far as we know, the Gophers are offering HUGE NIL but the 'cruits are still saying NO. They sure aren't going to publicize that! Interestingly, that factoid would suit your narrative that Gopher basketball is a lost cause under the current regime better. I will check in with you again the next time I turn off the ignore feature!
If you actually think BB wants the gophers to fail, then you completely misunderstand his entire point of view. MN has not been winning, and it has now been decades since we won anything meaningful. Blue bloods win, that's why they are blue bloods. All BB did was point out the obvious.
 


ecoperson

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If you actually think BB wants the gophers to fail, then you completely misunderstand his entire point of view. MN has not been winning, and it has now been decades since we won anything meaningful. Blue bloods win, that's why they are blue bloods. All BB did was point out the obvious.
No... BB and others do not want the Gophers to fail. They have just made it very clear that they have no patience for building a program step by step from the ground up. If the Ws aren't there in year one, it is seen as a failure. They think that throwing a bunch of someone else's money around at a new coach will lead us to the promised land. Ain't gonna happen unless some rich benefactors suddenly take a fancy in the U.

There are dozens of teams in Power 5 conferences who are not blue bloods. They are at the same level as the U. Some have found opportunities to break through... others have not.

Even some blue bloods like Kentucky and UCLA have had horrible records over some individual years. Calipari was 9-16 in 2020-21. They haven't made it to the Final 4 since 2014-15. UCLA was 15-17 the next year under Alford. They went 10 years between Final 4s.

Let's see if Johnson and company can improve things in year 2 of this total rebuild.
 

BarnBurner

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No... BB and others do not want the Gophers to fail. They have just made it very clear that they have no patience for building a program step by step from the ground up. If the Ws aren't there in year one, it is seen as a failure. They think that throwing a bunch of someone else's money around at a new coach will lead us to the promised land. Ain't gonna happen unless some rich benefactors suddenly take a fancy in the U.

There are dozens of teams in Power 5 conferences who are not blue bloods. They are at the same level as the U. Some have found opportunities to break through... others have not.

Even some blue bloods like Kentucky and UCLA have had horrible records over some individual years. Calipari was 9-16 in 2020-21. They haven't made it to the Final 4 since 2014-15. UCLA was 15-17 the next year under Alford. They went 10 years between Final 4s.

Let's see if Johnson and company can improve things in year 2 of this total rebuild.
Well, I have attended a ton of games since the early 90’s. And followed since the late 70’s. Was at The Barn when the FF team returned from the Elite 8. So been on board for damn near 50 years. Seen a lot. Spent a lot. Time and $$.

Sure, I have no patience for program building.

🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄
 

ecoperson

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Well, I have attended a ton of games since the early 90’s. And followed since the late 70’s. Was at The Barn when the FF team returned from the Elite 8. So been on board for damn near 50 years. Seen a lot. Spent a lot. Time and $$.

Sure, I have no patience for program building.

🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄
You and I are very similar. My earliest sports memories were the Vikings Super Bowl losses. But my earliest positive sports memory was the 1982 Big Ten Championship. I also crammed myself into the Barn in 1997 to welcome the team back home! I have spent a chunk of change over the years in season tickets.

I am willing to give each regime a little time before judging. I expected about 5-9 wins last year based on the extremely limited roster. They exceeded my expectations by somehow pulling out a 13-17 record including 4 conference victories.

I am not content with this 'success' but I saw some things that tell me that Johnson may have a chance. I am counting on Johnson to show what he can do this year with a full roster of more talented players. They aren't going to win a 'ship but I believe that they have the ingredients to be a much more competitive team. I am also pleased with the early commitment of Kadyn Betts and all of the very positive things that he and other recruits have said about Johnson and the staff.

I am fine building more slowly if I can see what the goal is. Johnson is the first coach in over 20 years to talk so clearly and unwaveringly about the team's identity. I think we have seen a glimpse of this in year one. If Johnson and the coaching staff can continue to build on what they started, I think we can return the excitement to Williams Arena.
 

Gophers_4life

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No. You don't need bagmen. You need to be competitive with what is legal. What if we were the only school in the Big Ten that didn't offer 13 (scratch that....... 11) full ride scholarships. We would not compete.
Apologies (also for the late response), my post was very lazily and poorly worded at the end.

When I said "Don't need em", in my mind I meant that as a continuation of my previous post where I was talking about players who only wanted to come to Minnesota because we offered a better (NIL) payday. That's what I was continuing to say ... but in the words of the post it obviously looked like I was saying we don't need a collective.

I do think we should continue to build up our collective. As you say, if it's legal per the rules.
 



BarnBurner

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You and I are very similar. My earliest sports memories were the Vikings Super Bowl losses. But my earliest positive sports memory was the 1982 Big Ten Championship. I also crammed myself into the Barn in 1997 to welcome the team back home! I have spent a chunk of change over the years in season tickets.

I am willing to give each regime a little time before judging. I expected about 5-9 wins last year based on the extremely limited roster. They exceeded my expectations by somehow pulling out a 13-17 record including 4 conference victories.

I am not content with this 'success' but I saw some things that tell me that Johnson may have a chance. I am counting on Johnson to show what he can do this year with a full roster of more talented players. They aren't going to win a 'ship but I believe that they have the ingredients to be a much more competitive team. I am also pleased with the early commitment of Kadyn Betts and all of the very positive things that he and other recruits have said about Johnson and the staff.

I am fine building more slowly if I can see what the goal is. Johnson is the first coach in over 20 years to talk so clearly and unwaveringly about the team's identity. I think we have seen a glimpse of this in year one. If Johnson and the coaching staff can continue to build on what they started, I think we can return the excitement to Williams Arena.
So, you have no patience for program building. We’re similar.
 

short ornery norwegian

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So, you have no patience for program building. We’re similar.

so how else do you build a program?

bring in 10 transfers who are all 4* and 5* players who can start immediately?

maybe at Kentucky you can pull that off......but at MN?

It's one thing to have high expectations - but there has to be at least some realism mixed in.

this is not the movie "Blue Chips." (and that ended poorly for Nick Nolte....)

In real life, a program like MN is not going to suddenly turn into a conference champion and a national contender overnight. UNLESS THEY WANT TO CHEAT!

things cratered under Pitino, and that forced Johnson to start from scratch.

Could another coach have handled the situation differently. Sure. Better, who knows?

all we can do now is to watch how things play out.
 

BarnBurner

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so how else do you build a program?

bring in 10 transfers who are all 4* and 5* players who can start immediately?

maybe at Kentucky you can pull that off......but at MN?

It's one thing to have high expectations - but there has to be at least some realism mixed in.

this is not the movie "Blue Chips." (and that ended poorly for Nick Nolte....)

In real life, a program like MN is not going to suddenly turn into a conference champion and a national contender overnight. UNLESS THEY WANT TO CHEAT!

things cratered under Pitino, and that forced Johnson to start from scratch.

Could another coach have handled the situation differently. Sure. Better, who knows?

all we can do now is to watch how things play out.
You are correct regarding how it plays out.

As we have witnessed, cheating only matters for some. Kansas holds the natty, so save the holier than thou rubbish. Mn would rather stick a knife in it’s own heart - just look post Clem.

Winning starts at the top. The very top. Thus far, fail. All you have to do is review history.
 

builtbadgers

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so how else do you build a program?

bring in 10 transfers who are all 4* and 5* players who can start immediately?

maybe at Kentucky you can pull that off......but at MN?

It's one thing to have high expectations - but there has to be at least some realism mixed in.

this is not the movie "Blue Chips." (and that ended poorly for Nick Nolte....)

In real life, a program like MN is not going to suddenly turn into a conference champion and a national contender overnight. UNLESS THEY WANT TO CHEAT!

things cratered under Pitino, and that forced Johnson to start from scratch.

Could another coach have handled the situation differently. Sure. Better, who knows?

all we can do now is to watch how things play out.
You know that it can be done the way UW did it. That is pretty damn impressive. Or even better, do it the way UVA did it in building a true national power. High character, detailed scouting, extraordinary work, defense, chemistry, championships. First is the foundation. That takes time.
 



Gophers_4life

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You know that it can be done the way UW did it. That is pretty damn impressive. Or even better, do it the way UVA did it in building a true national power. High character, detailed scouting, extraordinary work, defense, chemistry, championships. First is the foundation. That takes time.
UVA had the #12 ranked overall class for 2022, and signed four 4* players. https://247sports.com/college/virginia/Season/2022-Basketball/Commits/

Don't you think that kinda trumps all the other stuff you're saying?


If you win games, you can claim anything you want about the reasons you won them and people will think you must be a genius.
 

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UVA had the #12 ranked overall class for 2022, and signed four 4* players. https://247sports.com/college/virginia/Season/2022-Basketball/Commits/

Don't you think that kinda trumps all the other stuff you're saying?


If you win games, you can claim anything you want about the reasons you won them and people will think you must be a genius.
I’m not sure you are interpreting what Built is saying. Tony Bennett’s first few years were 6-9 in conference and right at about .500 overall. It wasn’t until year three when they started to move forward a bit. A build takes time, Ben has had one year. Will he have the same trajectory, time will tell. I think NIL might affect the timeframe but we shall see.
 

Gophers_4life

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I’m not sure you are interpreting what Built is saying. Tony Bennett’s first few years were 6-9 in conference and right at about .500 overall. It wasn’t until year three when they started to move forward a bit. A build takes time, Ben has had one year. Will he have the same trajectory, time will tell. I think NIL might affect the timeframe but we shall see.
Sure. That's fine.

I just want to make sure we're all aware and agreeing to that, Bennett isn't doing some Hoosiers miracle job every year, these days.

Nor at Texas Tech, I suspect (haven't looked yet).

Those two programs can and should give us hope, though.
 

short ornery norwegian

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You are correct regarding how it plays out.

As we have witnessed, cheating only matters for some. Kansas holds the natty, so save the holier than thou rubbish. Mn would rather stick a knife in it’s own heart - just look post Clem.

Winning starts at the top. The very top. Thus far, fail. All you have to do is review history.

just to clarify - when you say "the very top," who or what are you referring to? The college president? The AD? the Coach? Who specifically do you think is failing?

on cheating - are you suggesting that "everybody else is cheating, so we should cheat too" - or am I misreading that.
 

Chico Gopher

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"are you suggesting that "everybody else is cheating, so we should cheat too?"

I know and have known way too many people in my life that feel that is the perfectly acceptable way to go. I have a sneaking suspicion that there are a few fans out there who would be A-OK if the Gophers won a title by outcheating the other cheaters.
 

builtbadgers

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UVA had the #12 ranked overall class for 2022, and signed four 4* players. https://247sports.com/college/virginia/Season/2022-Basketball/Commits/

Don't you think that kinda trumps all the other stuff you're saying?


If you win games, you can claim anything you want about the reasons you won them and people will think you must be a genius.
Jerome was in the 200's when offered. Hunter high 90's, Guy around 50. Services on elevated that class after commits . He was way ahead on evals.To build it Harris was in the 135 range, Atkins etc 200's and Brogdon around 90. That group won ACC titles and again were evaluated and developed really well and played legendary defense. Even if i was accepting of some service and their evaluations it got out performed by a title. Hoosiers was not that big a upset if you read Greg Guffey's greatest basketball story ever told they were fantastic the year before. The movie invented OLLIE, the brawl, Chitwood as Bobby Plump , Hackmans age. Marvin Wood was 24 ! The real story was even better. Many of Milans players went on to play college basketball. What UVA has done is textbook building. Never cut corners, only high character, defense and precision. That has turned the conference over despite Duke having far higher ranked recruits. He knew he was never going to out recruit blue bloods so he found another way. Better scouting, better development, more experience, intangibles. That takes time and work. This staff admires everything about that program and models themselves in that way. That is such a good thing.
 

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"Better scouting". Isn't that obvious? "Guys, we need to scout better! Doh! Of course, what were we thinking??"

"Better development". You don't say? "Guys, we need to develop better! Doh! Of course, what were we thinking??"


Who doesn't want to do those things?? I don't get it ...
 

bga1

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UVA had the #12 ranked overall class for 2022, and signed four 4* players. https://247sports.com/college/virginia/Season/2022-Basketball/Commits/

Don't you think that kinda trumps all the other stuff you're saying?


If you win games, you can claim anything you want about the reasons you won them and people will think you must be a genius.
Correct. UVA to the credit of Bennett, built a nice winning brand in what is now another era of college basketball. Building it that way from the ground up, even though it is the right way...just got more difficult.
 

builtbadgers

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"Better scouting". Isn't that obvious? "Guys, we need to scout better! Doh! Of course, what were we thinking??"

"Better development". You don't say? "Guys, we need to develop better! Doh! Of course, what were we thinking??"


Who doesn't want to do those things?? I don't get it ...
Of course everyone wants to scout better, develop better and that is why hiring the right staff is the critical piece because only certain coaches possess these gifts. Time will tell if we have done that. ONLY CERTAINTY is we have not done it in the past.
 

builtbadgers

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Correct. UVA to the credit of Bennett, built a nice winning brand in what is now another era of college basketball. Building it that way from the ground up, even though it is the right way...just got more difficult.
No doubt that it got more difficult but i would not bet against him. There are certain recruits attracted to what he does, what he stands for and who he is. Think he will continue to have success. Great coaches build and then win. UW and even more so UVA did it and we can do that here.
 

bc2211

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Jerome was in the 200's when offered. Hunter high 90's, Guy around 50. Services on elevated that class after commits . He was way ahead on evals.To build it Harris was in the 135 range, Atkins etc 200's and Brogdon around 90. That group won ACC titles and again were evaluated and developed really well and played legendary defense. Even if i was accepting of some service and their evaluations it got out performed by a title. Hoosiers was not that big a upset if you read Greg Guffey's greatest basketball story ever told they were fantastic the year before. The movie invented OLLIE, the brawl, Chitwood as Bobby Plump , Hackmans age. Marvin Wood was 24 ! The real story was even better. Many of Milans players went on to play college basketball. What UVA has done is textbook building. Never cut corners, only high character, defense and precision. That has turned the conference over despite Duke having far higher ranked recruits. He knew he was never going to out recruit blue bloods so he found another way. Better scouting, better development, more experience, intangibles. That takes time and work. This staff admires everything about that program and models themselves in that way. That is such a good thing.
That class (2016) of 4 players was 6th in the nation by the 247, with guys ranked 37 (guy), 44 (Jerome), 57 (huff) and 91 (hunter), all of whom were 3 years into the system by the championship year. It’s also pretty well established that ranking sites like 247 are influenced by and a bit behind the coaches. The lone 2015 signee on that roster was Diakite, ranked 32nd. Personally, I’d say that an assemblage of similar rankings should have championship aspirations if they all hang around as upper classmen.

That was tremendous roster construction and good development by Bennett, and it is a good model to follow. Badger ff’s had similar group of 4/5 stars that stuck it out a few years, as you are well aware). Neither of those teams lacked for elite talent - I think what made them special is that they figured it out as a team for a few years. The trick is getting a class full of guys ranked 30-90.
 


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Look at Nevada, then and now.
Look at Arkansas then and now.
The coach matters, since this is BJ's first go round as the head master I think he deserves some time, for sure.

Kansas does hold the trophy and they should. Talent and coaching is what gets it done
 

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Look at Nevada, then and now.
Look at Arkansas then and now.
The coach matters, since this is BJ's first go round as the head master I think he deserves some time, for sure.

Kansas does hold the trophy and they should. Talent and coaching is what gets it done
FIFY:

Kansas does hold the trophy and they should. Talent, a good bagman, and coaching is what gets it done
 

builtbadgers

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That class (2016) of 4 players was 6th in the nation by the 247, with guys ranked 37 (guy), 44 (Jerome), 57 (huff) and 91 (hunter), all of whom were 3 years into the system by the championship year. It’s also pretty well established that ranking sites like 247 are influenced by and a bit behind the coaches. The lone 2015 signee on that roster was Diakite, ranked 32nd. Personally, I’d say that an assemblage of similar rankings should have championship aspirations if they all hang around as upper classmen.

That was tremendous roster construction and good development by Bennett, and it is a good model to follow. Badger ff’s had similar group of 4/5 stars that stuck it out a few years, as you are well aware). Neither of those teams lacked for elite talent - I think what made them special is that they figured it out as a team for a few years. The trick is getting a class full of guys ranked 30-90.
That was my point about scouting. They were under ranked before the Bennett offers. Jerome is the example of how poor his offer list was. The rankings you give were all after the fact. 247 bumped them up way after the Bennett evals. That is the pre scouting and scouting they excel at. Then there is the beauty of development. including the Hunter red shirt. Then the extraordinary buy in on defense. There are enough really good players but few great coaches.
 

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FIFY:

Kansas does hold the trophy and they should. Talent, a good bagman, and coaching is what gets it done
How's that saying go? Haters gotta hate or something like that. Self know's how to coach. Hell his best player last year was a 3* coming out of high school. I think he was somewhere is the 300's. Kalscheur was rated higher.

But I guess since this is a Gopher board let me try to keep on the Gopher.

GO GOPHER!!!
 

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Per Gary Parrish @ CBS

"Did you realize that the programs with the best four recruiting classes in this post-NIL world (Duke, Kentucky, UConn, Baylor) won four of the last nine NCAA Tournaments in the pre-NIL world? It's true. NIL hasn't really changed which programs are good and which programs aren't. If you look at the current 247Sports team recruiting rankings, or even the latest CBS Sports Top 25 And 1 rankings, nothing really seems out of place. They both look as normal in 2022 (post-NIL) as they would've looked in, say, 2017 (pre-NIL). Players are getting paid now, sure. But the truth is that the programs that always prioritized men's basketball in a pre-NIL world are mostly the programs still flourishing in this post-NIL world."
 




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