Shama: Frustrated Fans Target Fleck, QB

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BilldGopher said:
OK...gotta ask...is it so out of line that Gopher fans might be frustrated with what has happened?

Using the current mantra the previous ship did not appear to be leaking when the captain was made to walk the plank.

The Athletic Director and the University President did this on their own...or at least I'm not aware the Regents or some other groundswell was screaming for a coaching change.

At least when Coach Kill came on board we knew the boat was sunk and needed to be raised. We understood that it would take time.

Now at least we appear to be watching a deconstruction that may indeed be warranted...but the average fan was not seeking it.

Watching the defensive drop is the hardest to take. Another rebuilding project...
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My question is why weren't you seeing it? Just like when Mason was replaced, it was clear that the arrow of the program was pointing down not up. We were losing the quarterback that had started the last three years who had not played good football as a Senior. What lead you to believe there was a better, or even similar, quarterback on the roster for this season? If there was a QB who could pass the ball competently, wouldn't that QB have gotten a shot over Leidner at some point last season? Now lets look at the WR position where Wolitarsky was the main option. What lead you to believe we'd have a player who could match or exceed his production? We couldn't stretch the field at all last year (or really any time in the Kill/Claeys era) what would have lead you to believe that issue could be fixed with returning players? Gentry, Holland, Register all "were who we thought they were" and could not earn playing time. There's a strong case to be made to expect the offense, which wasn't good in 2016, to be worse in 2017...but I am not seeing the case to expect improvement. Now lets look at the defense:

The defensive backfield lost Travis and Myrick with no clear replacements for either. The expulsions took away 3 of the most likely contributors to step up in the secondary and also left us short on bodies. Going from an NFL draft pick in Jalen Myrick to Antonio Shenault as your top/most experienced CB is a massive drop off and very similar to Jamal Harris being the best CB Brewster had to work with in year 1. So the Gophers succeeded in '16 by bolstering their pass rush with frequent blitzes and allowing their CB's to play man. Now they don't have the talent to play man in the secondary and can't get a pass rush because they need the LB's to drop in coverage. The run defense? The closest thing to a full sized Defensive End left on the roster was Winston DeLattiboudere who is listed at 6'3 247lbs. There was absolutely zero reason to expect anything but a regression from the defense and that was before the injuries to Winfield and Creighton and the suspension of McGee.

To go back to your analogy, the leak was pretty clear to me.
 

EG#9 said:
My question is why weren't you seeing it? Just like when Mason was replaced, it was clear that the arrow of the program was pointing down not up. We were losing the quarterback that had started the last three years who had not played good football as a Senior. What lead you to believe there was a better, or even similar, quarterback on the roster for this season? If there was a QB who could pass the ball competently, wouldn't that QB have gotten a shot over Leidner at some point last season? Now lets look at the WR position where Wolitarsky was the main option. What lead you to believe we'd have a player who could match or exceed his production? We couldn't stretch the field at all last year (or really any time in the Kill/Claeys era) what would have lead you to believe that issue could be fixed with returning players? Gentry, Holland, Register all "were who we thought they were" and could not earn playing time. There's a strong case to be made to expect the offense, which wasn't good in 2016, to be worse in 2017...but I am not seeing the case to expect improvement. Now lets look at the defense:

The defensive backfield lost Travis and Myrick with no clear replacements for either. The expulsions took away 3 of the most likely contributors to step up in the secondary and also left us short on bodies. Going from an NFL draft pick in Jalen Myrick to Antonio Shenault as your top/most experienced CB is a massive drop off and very similar to Jamal Harris being the best CB Brewster had to work with in year 1. So the Gophers succeeded in '16 by bolstering their pass rush with frequent blitzes and allowing their CB's to play man. Now they don't have the talent to play man in the secondary and can't get a pass rush because they need the LB's to drop in coverage. The run defense? The closest thing to a full sized Defensive End left on the roster was Winston DeLattiboudere who is listed at 6'3 247lbs. There was absolutely zero reason to expect anything but a regression from the defense and that was before the injuries to Winfield and Creighton and the suspension of McGee.

To go back to your analogy, the leak was pretty clear to me.
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The difference here is pretty clear and that's Claeys' ability to develop defensive talent.
I have no doubt that he would have had our backfield ready-to-go for this season.
It's not like he was ****ting out NFL caliber corners, he was making them.

Either way we were poised for a step back, but I would have been awfully upset if Claeys wasn't 5-0 right now.
 

hello-world said:
The difference here is pretty clear and that's Claeys' ability to develop defensive talent.
I have no doubt that he would have had our backfield ready-to-go for this season.
It's not like he was ****ting out NFL caliber corners, he was making them.

Either way we were poised for a step back, but I would have been awfully upset if Claeys wasn't 5-0 right now.
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Claeys probably would be 5-0 now and playing Croft more - but the worst is yet to come, so maybe six wins and a bowl, whereas no bowl for PJ.
 

So according to Shama, IL, NW, and NE are all more formidable than MD and Purdue. He must not be paying too close attention to BT football this year.
 



BilldGopher said:
OK...gotta ask...is it so out of line that Gopher fans might be frustrated with what has happened?

Using the current mantra the previous ship did not appear to be leaking when the captain was made to walk the plank.

The Athletic Director and the University President did this on their own...or at least I'm not aware the Regents or some other groundswell was screaming for a coaching change.

At least when Coach Kill came on board we knew the boat was sunk and needed to be raised. We understood that it would take time.

Now at least we appear to be watching a deconstruction that may indeed be warranted...but the average fan was not seeking it.

Watching the defensive drop is the hardest to take. Another rebuilding project...
Click to expand...

Every fan has a right to their opinion of course, and the level of frustration shows the passion some of those fans have.

But...it is college football. It doesn't follow a predictable linear progression (e.g 9 wins last year, therefore same or more this year, X beat Y, Y beat Z, therefore X>>Z, Iowa State beat Oklahoma against a 30 point spread, therefore anything they have in common with the Gophers proves Fleck should go undefeated.)

Remember last year when some doubted the impressiveness of 9 wins given the lack of big game wins?

Remember one or two awful losses at the beginning of Kill's tenure?

Remeber first and inept at time management on the goal line against Michigan?

I liked both Jerry and Tracy. Saw enough of Jerry to draw a conclusion. Never really got the chance with Tracy.

I think Fleck will be fine, and remain optimistic. I also think that it is still college football, and there will be plenty of whiskey tango foxtrot along the way.

To keep my blood pressure under control, this year is all about having no expectations and trying to enjoy the ride. At least as of about 8:00 PM last Saturday it was. ;)
 

hello-world said:
Fleck deserves the criticism.
Our coordinators are running high school schemes.
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That's a dumb comparison considering 100% of schemes run at the college level are also run at the high school level.
 

Sparlimb said:
They are running the scheme a walk-on qb can handle. Rhoda isn't the answer, but the answer likely isn't on the team. Which means we'll suck next year too. Our receivers are still terrible. The offensive line is terrible and the defense is regressing. I bet it isn't until 2019 we start to see a competent team. Get ready for the ugliness of this big ten season to continue. 3-9 isn't out of the question.
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From the Clown who predicted Kill would not sniff a B10 win until year 3. You have zero credibility.
 

BREAKING NEWS: Frustrated fans target [insert coach here], [insert QB here]




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 




Great Plains Gopher said:
Claeys probably would be 5-0 now and playing Croft more - but the worst is yet to come, so maybe six wins and a bowl, whereas no bowl for PJ.
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Part in bold isn't the case. Seth Green was going to be the starting QB going into the year with Neil McLaurin as the backup QB.
 

Winona Gopher said:
Part in bold isn't the case. Seth Green was going to be the starting QB going into the year with Neil McLaurin as the backup QB.
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This was my understanding as well. Tough to tell what kind of impact that would have had, might have been good, might have been very bad.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
They are different. What's not different is Purdue putting up points on our defense. Those vaunted Kill/Claeys era defenses gave up an average of 31 points per game to Purdue over 5 games.

Yesterday they had 16 points with 2:30 left to go without our 2 starting safeties. They then got to 24 points by taking advantage of another CB injury.

But it has already been proven that Robb Smith is terrible and Brohm is an offensive genius! :rolleyes:
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Or the Sawvel/Claeys defense that had a hard time stopping Rutgers last year. Good point GWG.

I have reset my expectations this year due to injuries, new QB, and new staff. Even though I don't think there is another QB on the roster that could have completed the two TD passes that Rhoda completed on Saturday, maybe it's time to go with more of a run first QB as our WR corps is depleted and a running QB probably gives the team the best chance of putting up points.
 



Game management Saturday was terrible! Fleck is over his head.

Why are Coyle and Kaler still employed?
 


I almost think that there should be a 24 hour rule delay for posting on GH following a loss...myself included.

It is hard to think of the big picture following losses like the last two.

Just remember, it still the greatest game in the land...
 

Common to have regression with a coaching change unless the coach is Urban Meyer.
The frustrating thing is I assumed Fleck would be more aggressive offensively.
Playing for a FG when a 1st down would end the game? Ground Hog Day with the Penn State game last season. When they settled for the FG, any Gopher fan with a perspective of history knew we would lose and we did. Our DNA. Play to win!
 



beavergopher said:
Common to have regression with a coaching change unless the coach is Urban Meyer.
The frustrating thing is I assumed Fleck would be more aggressive offensively.
Playing for a FG when a 1st down would end the game? Ground Hog Day with the Penn State game last season. When they settled for the FG, any Gopher fan with a perspective of history knew we would lose and we did. Our DNA. Play to win!
Click to expand...

And playing for the first down could of also resulted in a redzone turnover, which Rhoda has 4 of so far this season.
 

Great Plains Gopher said:
Claeys probably would be 5-0 now and playing Croft more - but the worst is yet to come, so maybe six wins and a bowl, whereas no bowl for PJ.
Click to expand...

True, Croft probably would have played more, because Rhoda would not have been here. However, being 5-0 is a stretch of the imagination. It is not like this team has shutdown Purdue the last several years and Purdue was really bad.
 

EG#9 said:
My question is why weren't you seeing it? Just like when Mason was replaced, it was clear that the arrow of the program was pointing down not up. We were losing the quarterback that had started the last three years who had not played good football as a Senior. What lead you to believe there was a better, or even similar, quarterback on the roster for this season? If there was a QB who could pass the ball competently, wouldn't that QB have gotten a shot over Leidner at some point last season? Now lets look at the WR position where Wolitarsky was the main option. What lead you to believe we'd have a player who could match or exceed his production? We couldn't stretch the field at all last year (or really any time in the Kill/Claeys era) what would have lead you to believe that issue could be fixed with returning players? Gentry, Holland, Register all "were who we thought they were" and could not earn playing time. There's a strong case to be made to expect the offense, which wasn't good in 2016, to be worse in 2017...but I am not seeing the case to expect improvement. Now lets look at the defense:

The defensive backfield lost Travis and Myrick with no clear replacements for either. The expulsions took away 3 of the most likely contributors to step up in the secondary and also left us short on bodies. Going from an NFL draft pick in Jalen Myrick to Antonio Shenault as your top/most experienced CB is a massive drop off and very similar to Jamal Harris being the best CB Brewster had to work with in year 1. So the Gophers succeeded in '16 by bolstering their pass rush with frequent blitzes and allowing their CB's to play man. Now they don't have the talent to play man in the secondary and can't get a pass rush because they need the LB's to drop in coverage. The run defense? The closest thing to a full sized Defensive End left on the roster was Winston DeLattiboudere who is listed at 6'3 247lbs. There was absolutely zero reason to expect anything but a regression from the defense and that was before the injuries to Winfield and Creighton and the suspension of McGee.

To go back to your analogy, the leak was pretty clear to me.
Click to expand...

Fair points and I would add losing the Ekpe brothers and Elmore was big from the dline as well. Those guys were good contributors in run stopping and occasionally putting pressure on the QB.
 

dpodoll68 said:
How would a first down have ended the game?
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I missed the end of the game (post storm delay). How many time outs did Purdue have at that point? With a first down could the clock have been run down to sub 30 seconds if three more running plays happened post first down?
 

WorkingMyTailOff said:
I missed the end of the game (post storm delay). How many time outs did Purdue have at that point? With a first down could the clock have been run down to sub 30 seconds if three more running plays happened post first down?
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I don't recall, but will tell you this (slightly tongue in cheek), the way Purdue drove down the field (gashed), if the Gophers had scored with 30 seconds left, Purdue did not even need a timeout..... the special teams execution on the kickoff following our field goal set the tone....
 

Johnnyboy18 said:
And playing for the first down could of also resulted in a redzone turnover, which Rhoda has 4 of so far this season.
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So we end up with the same end result.......a loss. The aggressor usually wins and Brohm was the aggressor. PJ flecked it.
 




hello-world said:
Brohm is a way better coach _right now_. That's not a question in anyone's mind other than yours.
We didn't hire Fleck for right now though, we hired Fleck for 3-4 years from now.

Saying that Brohm is not a better coach than Fleck is just ignorant.
Dude is one of the best offensive minds in football.
Fleck's greatest contribution are his shoes.
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Rhoda holds on to the ball instead of fumbling and we go in to take a 21-6 lead and Brohm would have taken a loss. His Arena football crap will only go so far. Not impressed with either coach. We were in a position to win the game but the Admiral peed down his leg.
 

gopherjay said:
Rhoda holds on to the ball instead of fumbling and we go in to take a 21-6 lead and Brohm would have taken a loss. His Arena football crap will only go so far. Not impressed with either coach. We were in a position to win the game but the Admiral peed down his leg.
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I think you'll see in other threads that I generally agree with that assessment, but I love watching Brohm's offense. It's so much fun.
That double reverse flea-flicker that almost broke, that was ****ing awesome.
If those blocks lined up even a little better, that was going to the house.
 

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